TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

boredaf

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>>>Trump wants to make Turkey a cash machine for the US industrial complex in order to finance their already-late 6th generation fighter jet; as China already flew three different 6th gen prototypes
That is just nonsense. Even if we purchased everything in that 20 billion agreement it is nothing but a drop in the bucket for the US. And that is just their public budget.
Moreover, the initial deal is estimated at a massive 50 billion dollars for the F16s alone (not to mention the F35s).
Where on earth are you getting that number from??? We already know the exact deal submitted and approved by the US Congress and even with 40 planes, 80 upgrade kits, fuck ton of spare parts and munitions it was 20 something billion.
Finally, many Turkish officials are worried that the US take the initial money for the F16s and after a couple of years, they will come up with an excuse from their a** to sanction Turkey and prevent them from not only obtaining American jets but also prevent the domestic jet from being properly financed
They didn't come up with a reason to stop the F-35, our government gave them a proper reason and had plenty of warning beforehand.
Moreover, many expect the KAAN program to face many delays and probably only be incorporated into TAF in 2030
It *is* going to get into our inventory in 2030s, we already know this. Just this summer there have been multiple mentions of 2032 with domestic engine at earliest iirc.
 

Lool

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That is just nonsense. Even if we purchased everything in that 20 billion agreement it is nothing but a drop in the bucket for the US. And that is just their public budget.

Where on earth are you getting that number from??? We already know the exact deal submitted and approved by the US Congress and even with 40 planes, 80 upgrade kits, fuck ton of spare parts and munitions it was 20 something billion.
The initial deal was around 40 F16s and 79 modernisation kits from the US for its already existing F16s valued at nearly ~50 billion dollars (if i remember right). Turkey then reduced it to around 40 jets to concentrate on its Ozgur program. Now, Turkey wants to reduce it even more

And Yes, Trump needs money from Turkey especially in a potential sale of F16s and F35s that could provide the US with billions of dollars
They didn't come up with a reason to stop the F-35, our government gave them a proper reason and had plenty of warning beforehand.
The main OFFICIAL reason for the CAATSA sancyion imposed on Turkey was that the S400 is detrimental to the US since the S400 can steal valuable data from the F35

This has been refuted by Lindsay Graham who stated that the obly reason that Turkey was placed in the CAATSA sanction list is to make an example out of Turkey to all US-allied nations to not buy weapons from anyone other than the US

Why on Earth is Turkey getting a warning while India which has numerous batteries of S400s are being offered not only US-made engines but also F35s in return for co-operation and more anti-China policy?
It *is* going to get into our inventory in 2030s, we already know this. Just this summer there have been multiple mentions of 2032 with domestic engine at earliest iirc.
Some TAI officials did state that the first 4.5 KAAN will be made available to the TAF by the end of 2028/early 2029. I just posted that a portion of the officials in the govt dont believe that it is feasible
 

boredaf

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The initial deal was around 40 F16s and 79 modernisation kits from the US for its already existing F16s valued at nearly ~50 billion dollars (if i remember right). Turkey then reduced it to around 40 jets to concentrate on its Ozgur program. Now, Turkey wants to reduce it even more

And Yes, Trump needs money from Turkey especially in a potential sale of F16s and F35s that could provide the US with billions of dollars

The main OFFICIAL reason for the CAATSA sancyion imposed on Turkey was that the S400 is detrimental to the US since the S400 can steal valuable data from the F35

This has been refuted by Lindsay Graham who stated that the obly reason that Turkey was placed in the CAATSA sanction list is to make an example out of Turkey to all US-allied nations to not buy weapons from anyone other than the US

Why on Earth is Turkey getting a warning while India which has numerous batteries of S400s are being offered not only US-made engines but also F35s in return for co-operation and more anti-China policy?

Some TAI officials did state that the first 4.5 KAAN will be made available to the TAF by the end of 2028/early 2029. I just posted that a portion of the officials in the govt dont believe that it is feasible
I'm sorry but, lmfao. You are taking what Trump says seriously? That is absolutely hilarious. His brain is melting at this point and he has no idea what he is talking about, at all. And Lindsay Graham is an arse licker who would say anything to look tough, or, make Trump look tough. F-35 to India was nothing but Trump bullshitting, again, since nothing even remotely official happened there. Seriously, Trump's brain is mush, stop taking him seriously.

And YOU ARE remembering it wrong it was NEVER 50 billion, ever. 20 or 23 billion was the number for the whole deal. The fact that you are still saying that number even though I told you we have the actual deal already written down and it was around 20 is fucking weird.

And some TAI officials were talking out of their arses that is why right now all the talk shifted to 2030s already.
 

Sanchez

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Passenger plane order to Boeing can be in the hundreds if the US plays well.
I don't think this is as big of a leverage as it's made out to be. TK for decades have run a dual fleet of European and American aircraft. It's a doubling of the fleet to get better deals from manufacturers and to make sure in the event of a crisis, portion of the fleet can run regardless, be it systematic issues, maintenance issues etc.

TK already ordered about 250 Airbus units in 2023. Airbus orderbook is nearly full, with airlines outbidding each other to get a slot, lots of delays in production due to supply chain issues in both sides of the atlantic as well. TK has to order Boeings to hit their previously stated goals and to keep the fleet young. Maybe the order gets delayed 2-3 more years, but it will happen.
 

Zafer

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I don't think this is as big of a leverage as it's made out to be. TK for decades have run a dual fleet of European and American aircraft. It's a doubling of the fleet to get better deals from manufacturers and to make sure in the event of a crisis, portion of the fleet can run regardless, be it systematic issues, maintenance issues etc.

TK already ordered about 250 Airbus units in 2023. Airbus orderbook is nearly full, with airlines outbidding each other to get a slot, lots of delays in production due to supply chain issues in both sides of the atlantic as well. TK has to order Boeings to hit their previously stated goals and to keep the fleet young. Maybe the order gets delayed 2-3 more years, but it will happen.
Who knows maybe China catches up or maybe Airbus grow bigger. Boeing losing deals left and right puts them in a tight spot. Delays of several years is pressure enough to make them compromise.
 

Spitfire9

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Was anything related to F-35 decided at the meeting between Erdogan and Trump? Is a Eurofighter deal now dead?
 

Fairon

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Was anything related to F-35 decided at the meeting between Erdogan and Trump? Is a Eurofighter deal now dead?

No. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For a while, and possibly in the foreseeable future, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ will be the answer to all questions related to Air Force procurements.
 

Lool

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Sanchez

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Could be for training,nothing more.
Qatar’s oldest aircraft is less than 10 years old and have all MK0 AESA radars. They are not old or outdated, by most metrics they are the most competent EFs flying today.
 

Khagan1923

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What is more likely to be happen is this:

Qatar gives up its slot for 12 Tranche 4 EF to Turkey and leases a couple of its Tranche 3A for training purposes until the first Tranche 4 EF meant for TurAF arrive.

Qatar has with the F-15QA, Rafale and EF already an formidable enough Air Force for its size. Delaying the arrival of the last 12 Tranche 4 EF won't hurt them.

This way TurAF can start training and can already get its own EF way earlier.

There is a good reason the Air Force wants Tranche 4 and up (Tranche 4+/Tranche 5).

These include the Mk2 Radar, possible LAD and Striker II HMD as well as other improvements.

Would be nice to actually get some actual info on this too. We still don't even know what the supposed package will entail as well as how many fighters we will order in the first place.
 

begturan

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If Eurofighter aircraft are purchased from Qatar, F16 Özgür modernization deliveries continue, and Anka3, Hürjet, and Kızılelma aircraft enter the inventory, what might the Turkish Air Force's inventory look like in 12 months?

Also will the Hürjet enter the inventory as a trainer or a light attack version?
 

Sanchez

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German Foreign Minister Johann Wadephul is coming to Ankara on Friday, October 17. He will meet with Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan to discuss the Eurofighter issue.

Thought this part of the business was concluded. It's not good news that it wasn't. Wadephul was in Greece 2 days ago to request Greece not veto Turkey's joining of SAFE. If our purchase of EFs is tied to that, it's horrible in fact.
 

IC3M@N FX

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Why are we putting up with this crap? They can keep their SAFE, Eurofighter, F-16/35.
It's time to make a clean break and turn to countries that really deliver, while doing our own thing. Once we've reached a certain level of technological maturity, these countries will come crawling back to us.
 

boredaf

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Why are we putting up with this crap? They can keep their SAFE, Eurofighter, F-16/35.
It's time to make a clean break and turn to countries that really deliver, while doing our own thing. Once we've reached a certain level of technological maturity, these countries will come crawling back to us.
Sure we can do that, if we are living in a fantasy world.

Take a look at how much of our exports go to those countries that you want to break things with, how much money we make from their countries, how many agreements we have with them, how many components we still use from them in our military industry. Then, take a look at what kind of economical sanctions Russia is under what kind of an effect it had on their economy. Check out Iran or North Korea as well, who can only trade with China or Russia properly.

And which countries are those that deliver, exactly? Russia? The one country that would love to fuck us over in every which way if they could? The one that would've already done so during CCCP era, if we weren't in NATO? China who hates Muslims and practically enslaves all of their debtors? India who hates Muslims and already works against us because of our ties to Pakistan? Countries that are combined still smaller economical markets than the ones you want to break away from, that barely trade with us?

If short-sightedness was an Olympic event, our country would take the gold every single time.
 

AlperTunga

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If Eurofighter aircraft are purchased from Qatar, F16 Özgür modernization deliveries continue, and Anka3, Hürjet, and Kızılelma aircraft enter the inventory, what might the Turkish Air Force's inventory look like in 12 months?

Also will the Hürjet enter the inventory as a trainer or a light attack version?
TAF inventory will be the same in 12 months! Qatar won't sell us any EF. We should have bought those before Israel attacked Doha. As usual we are late and wasting time unnecessarily with negotiations etc. Özgür modernization is totally stalled because we need Murad AESA radar tests and development to be completed, which will be sometime in 2028 earliest. Also the Gökbora ramjet missile will only be ready around that time. So in a good scenario (also if there is no legal issue with LM to modernize F16s) we may have a good number of F16 at F16V level (or better with Gökbora) in 2030. At this time Greece will probably have 40 F35 operational as well as Rafale and > 100 F16s at F16V level. By 2030 we'll probably also have some 20 or 30 Anka3 and Kizilelma. So the gap against Greece may not be that large in this best scenario (if KE proves to be effective of course). But if Israel also gets into the picture, it'd be different. Also, our enemies might decide to strike earlier if they realize our combo of Murad plus Gökbora being integrated in numerous platforms, especially KE.
 

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