TR Air Defence Programs

Sungur and Levent should be used for short-range air defense. Hisar-A serves little purpose. It is heavy and expensive. There should also be a very cheap semi-active RF-guided short-range air defense missile.

BalkanTurk90 said:

Hisar A+ ( 15 km range and 10km altitude ) with that range is useless just use Sungur instead and produce more Hisar O+ / Siper .
Any news about more tests of Siper 2 ? Can we expect first half 2026 to be active service ?

Click to expand...

You can not send simultaneously 2-3 Sungur on one target. The Sungur missiles could hit each other, the seeker has limited capability. That's why Hisar a+ has data link Funktion . There is just one better alternative of Hisar A+, which is ground launched göksur missile ( Hala adını bilmiyorum) . Also Levent missile without data link but with microwave seeker smart solution.

Why was RIM-116 created? RAM missiles don't have data link but they aren't just SAM with IR guidance.

Aynı anda manpads ateşleyince birbirlerinin ısısına kitleniyorlar. Teker teker ateşlemek gerekiyor.

needless to say Hisar A and Sungur are not interchangeable....Sensors, Target capacity, Range, Altitude.... they are for different Scenarios.

Sungur is the last line of defense V.S HİSAR-A is a preventive layer, even in more simpler words Sungur engages what has already penetrated yet HİSAR-A prevents penetration in the first place. MANPADS are reactive and terminal; SHORAD provides proactive area denial for maneuvering forces and covers the gaps.

.... and having more preventive layers and covering the gaps is the essence

cheaper missiles is not a sound argument.

instead of getting rid of Hisar A, we should supplement them with Gürz type systems


MANPADS

-Rely on simple seekers
-Engage threats only once already close
-Provide local protection (point defense) against low threats (e.g., helicopters, UAVs)

SHORAD

-Detect and track threats earlier
-Provide area coverage and proactive response
-Support maneuver forces and prevent deeper penetration

https://www.nato.int/en/about-us/of...missile-defence-policy?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Quasar said:

needless to say Hisar A and Sungur are not interchangeable....Sensors, Target capacity, Range, Altitude.... they are for different Scenarios.

Sungur is the last line of defense V.S HİSAR-A is a preventive layer, even in more simpler words Sungur engages what has already penetrated yet HİSAR-A prevents penetration in the first place. MANPADS are reactive and terminal; SHORAD provides proactive area denial for maneuvering forces and covers the gaps.

.... and having more preventive layers and covering the gaps is the essence

cheaper missiles is not a sound argument.

instead of getting rid of Hisar A, we should supplement them with Gürz type systems


MANPADS

-Rely on simple seekers
-Engage threats only once already close
-Provide local protection (point defense) against low threats (e.g., helicopters, UAVs)

SHORAD

-Detect and track threats earlier
-Provide area coverage and proactive response
-Support maneuver forces and prevent deeper penetration

https://www.nato.int/en/about-us/of...missile-defence-policy?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Click to expand...

The point is to use sungur and levent with sensor package similar to that of HISAR A+ equipped with automatic fire control system. What penetrate HISAR A+ cannot be engaged by any Manpads simply for the fact that it would be too late for human reaction. Automated AAA guns at that point is more practically effective.

However, HISAR A+ is more expensive while something like levent is much more cost effective and practically can engage all the targets that a HISAR A+ would.

On the other hand, a slightly bigger HISAR O+ works much better as preventive option with 30km range and 15 km altitude.

Hisar-A should be axed. All Hisar-As should be replaced by Hisar-Os. Short-range (<15km) air defense solution should be mainly based on Aselsan Gürz or a similar system.35mm autocannon, Sungur, Levent and semi-active RF Guided cost-effective missile should be the main effectors of the system. The longest range air defense missile of the system should have 15km range. Sensor package should include 4x AESA radars(360 degree coverage) that has at least 2x the range of the longest range missile (30-35km), EO system, self protection sensors (LWR, RWR), acoustic sensor, 360 degree situational awareness system, and ESM/jammer. Missiles should be inherently mass producible in the thousands. The system should carry 16 missiles. Hisar-A IIR missile as well as Bozdoğan WVR missile shouldn't be a part of this structure. Bozdoğan should be a part of Gökdemir (national NASAMs) architecture.

Afif said:

The point is to use sungur and levent with sensor package similar to that of HISAR A+ equipped with automatic fire control system. What penetrate HISAR A+ cannot be engaged by any Manpads simply for the fact that it would be too late for human reaction. Automated AAA guns at that point is more practically effective.

However, HISAR A+ is more expensive while something like levent is much more cost effective and practically can engage all the targets that a HISAR A+ would.

On the other hand, a slightly bigger HISAR O+ works much better as preventive option with 30km range and 15 km altitude.

Click to expand...

Quasar said:

.

.... and having more preventive layers and covering the gaps is the essence

instead of getting rid of Hisar A, we should supplement them with Gürz type systems

Click to expand...

As I clearly stated I am in favor of supplementing Hisar A+ with other systems as it should be but I am also clearly and definitly against the notion that hisar A+ is a useless system


-MANPADS cannot replace automated terminal defense (correct)
-HISAR O+ is a better preventive interceptor (correct)
-LEVENT + AAA is more cost-effective at close range (correct)

However

Removing HISAR A+ entirely risks a mid-layer engagement gap & dead zone where Glide bombs, Loitering munitions, Pop-up helicopters operate.

Unless LEVENT gains extended range or Hisar O+ density is increased yet still Hisar A+ is fulfilling Direct SHORAD escort role (Bubble around moving units) V.S Hisar O+ is an Area air defense (Umbrella over maneuver area)

Hisar-A is an outdated system. The T-LALADMIS project dates back to 2007. The system is designed taking into account the battlespace of that era and much has changed since then. Mass use of FPV and kamikaze drones, loitering munitions, NLOS anti-tank missiles, and low-cost cruise missiles like Kemankeş opened way to low-cost saturation of air defense systems. Short-range air defense must provide a solution to those problems.

I don't think Hisar A+ is more expensive than Levent and göksur. More compact and tiny solutions are always more expensive.