Algeria Urges Locals In Eastern Morocco to Evacuate Farms Before March 18

[Ryder]

I didn't say Cyprus belongs to Greece, it's an independent state according to international law,populated in its majority by Greeks.
The Reconquista was one of the first anti colonial struggles spanning over centuries, I believe modern day Spaniards have every reason to celebrate their victorious struggle just like I understand that Algerians celebrate their independence from the French or Turks their Independence war.

Arabs werent really colonists they were conquerors.

You cant equate modern day colonialism with empire conquests.

Greeks, Carthaginians and the Phoenicians engaged in colonialism but that was ancient not modern. Their colonialism was mainly about settling in different lands those lands became cities rather than ruled by a single empire.

Carthage became its own city, Syracuse was its own city ruled by a king.

 

[Costin84]

Arabs werent really colonists they were conquerors.

You cant equate modern day colonialism with empire conquests.

Greeks, Carthaginians and the Phoenicians engaged in colonialism but that was ancient not modern. Their colonialism was mainly about settling in different lands those lands became cities rather than ruled by a single empire.

Carthage became its own city, Syracuse was its own city ruled by a king.

Indeed,but the Castilians,Aragonese weren't some settlers but people who inhabited those lands and retreated North when the Arab onslaught came and,with time, fought back and reclaimed their land. What's not to admire that they fought for centuries to reclaim what was theirs? It's not called "Reconquista" for nothing.

 

[Ryder]

Indeed,but the Castilians,Aragonese weren't some settlers but people who inhabited those lands and retreated North when the Arab onslaught came and,with time, fought back and reclaimed their land. What's not to admire that they fought for centuries to reclaim what was theirs? It's not called "Reconquista" for nothing.

Honestly im not going to complain.

When that stuff was normal. Just find it hilarious seeing all sides complaining about conquests and colonialism while throwing mud at each other. Turks conquered and settled many places all I see is Europeans, Kurds, Armenians and Greeks complaining and crying. I find it dishonest and stupid.

If the Moroccans can take back Ceuta and Meililla I would gladly support it to be honest.

I dont really have any love for Spain why should I defend their interests??

 

[Costin84]

Honestly im not going to complain.

When that stuff was normal. Just find it hilarious seeing all sides complaining about conquests and colonialism while throwing mud at each other.

If the Moroccans can take back Ceuta and Meililla I would gladly support it to be honest.

I dont really have any love for Spain why should I defend their interests??

If they could do it, they would, regardless of right, wrong, people moaning. Many nations would do many things if they could.Russia certainly doesn't hold back to wipe its "derriere " with international law and treaties....

 

[GoatsMilk]

I knew a Morrocan once and by chance when talking of football i mentioned how good spain and their teams were. He looked disgusted and started talking negatively of Spain and said he hoped the Catalonians got independence from Spanish occupation, that it would be good for his country if that happened. Then he went on talk about Spanish occupation of Moroccan lands.

Just like the Algerians look to the past 2000 years to judge things today, i get the impression the Moroccans do the same. So whether or not land was taken from them 100 or 500 years ago, the issue culturally isnt settled for them.

Hence why i'm interested to hear a Moroccan perspective on the geopolitical problems they face. The Algerian position looks pretty clear and cut.

 

[Ryder]

If they could do it, they would, regardless of right, wrong, people moaning. Many nations would do many things if they could.Russia certainly doesn't hold back to wipe its "derriere " with international law and treaties....

The Russians never hold back and they know it. Russians will do whatever they can to get more access of warm water ports and to protect their interests.

Russia still hold the territories they conquered while most empires gave it up over time due to a multitude of reasons.

Irony in all of this the Russians themselves complain about Western European colonialism of the natives peoples around thw world while at the same time the Russians were taking a huge chunk of Eurasia like Siberia we even forget the Russians reached Alaska even took it.

Russians dont care about treaties as they break them all. The Ottomans signed many treaties especially thinking if we give the Russians what they want they will leave us alone only to have themselves at war with them the next day or week.

I remember with the whole Plevna issue the Russians were so angry that the Romanians took Osman Pashas sword of surrender that they demanded they give them land I think its Bessarabia.

Russians are credited for giving the Balkan countries their freedom after that the Russians demanded a lot of stuff from the independant Balkan countries. Its considered as repayment. Many said Russia only did it for its interests and the whole Orthodox brotherhood was secondary. Russia believed they had to lead the Orthodox countries while in reality it was to further their political interests.

 

[Costin84]

The Russians never hold back and they know it. Russians will do whatever they can to get more access of warm water ports and to protect their interests.

Russia still hold the territories they conquered while most empires gave it up over time due to a multitude of reasons.

Irony in all of this the Russians themselves complain about Western European colonialism of the natives peoples around thw world while at the same time the Russians were taking a huge chunk of Eurasia like Siberia we even forget the Russians reached Alaska even took it.

Russians dont care about treaties as they break them all. The Ottomans signed many treaties especially thinking if we give the Russians what they want they will leave us alone only to have themselves at war with them the next day or week.

I remember with the whole Plevna issue the Russians were so angry that the Romanians took Osman Pashas sword of surrender that they demanded they give them land I think its Bessarabia.

Russians are credited for giving the Balkan countries their freedom after that the Russians demanded a lot of stuff from the independant Balkan countries. Its considered as repayment. Many said Russia only did it for its interests and the whole Orthodox brotherhood was secondary. Russia believed they had to lead the Orthodox countries while in reality it was to further their political interests.

Yep, Basarabia, roughly current day Moldova. Sign a treaty with them, fight alongside them, only for them to ripp a chunk of your country at the end,breaking all previous promises.....that's Russia for you

 

[Ryder]

Yep, Basarabia, roughly current day Moldova. Sign a treaty with them, fight alongside them, only for them to ripp a chunk of your country at the end,breaking all previous promises.....that's Russia for you

They dont call them the Russian bear for no reason.

I mean bears are powerful animals that will easily kill anybody. You cant reason with them. The more you feed them the more they will demand more.

 

[Ryder]

I knew a Morrocan once and by chance when talking of football i mentioned how good spain and their teams were. He looked disgusted and started talking negatively of Spain and said he hoped the Catalonians got independence from Spanish occupation, that it would be good for his country if that happened. Then he went on talk about Spanish occupation of Moroccan lands.

Just like the Algerians look to the past 2000 years to judge things today, i get the impression the Moroccans do the same. So whether or not land was taken from them 100 or 500 years ago, the issue culturally isnt settled for them.

Hence why i'm interested to hear a Moroccan perspective on the geopolitical problems they face. The Algerian position looks pretty clear and cut.

Historical grievances are hard to forget.

I can say nearly everybody has some sort of grievances that will not heal no matter what.

In Australia, White Australians especially of British descent and Australian aboriginals still have tensions that wont make the country move on. Despite apologies all this talk of reconciliation of both sides. You cant forget centuries of grievances in one night.

Japan and the Usa are great friends but a lot of them still have their grievances the Americans know how horrible they were while the Japanese will never forget Hiroshima.

Japan and South Korea despite both opposing China are at the opposite with each other even in their island disputes you have North Korea backing the South because historical grievances are hard to forget.

 

[Costin84]

They dont call them the Russian bear for no reason.

I mean bears are powerful animals that will easily kill anybody. You cant reason with them. The more you feed them the more they will demand more.

I have no admiration for them....Wars won by human wave attacks and complete disregard for their soldiers or citizens. Breaking promises, their allies always end up as complete hell holes, a retrograde state with a inferiority complex towards developed Western states talking about evil people encroaching "on their rights " as like enslaving half of Europe and northern/central Asia is a God given right for them. Never have they wondered why the entire Eastern block deserted them first chance they got...

 

[Ryder]

I have no admiration for them....Wars won by human wave attacks and complete disregard for their soldiers or citizens. Breaking promises, their allies always end up as complete hell holes, a retrograde state with a inferiority complex towards developed Western states talking about evil people encroaching "on their rights " as like enslaving half of Europe and northern/central Asia is a God given right for them. Never have they wondered why the entire Eastern block deserted them first chance they got...

Explains why many in Eastern Europe and the Balkans dont celebrate victory day. Western Europe was not taken over by the Soviets while in Eastern Europe and the Balkans the Soviets overran the place. Its considered a day of mourning not victory.

Its crazy how during ww2 and after ww2 that the Russians were given so much space to expand. Whole purpose of D Day was not just to reach Berlin before the Soviets but to stop the russians from taking too much it is said the Russians by the rate of their advance could have reached France. Whether its true or exaggerated I mean the Germans by 1945 barely had anything.

Ontopic: out of the Moroccan and Algerian armies which is superior overall or are they on par with each other. In my opinion they seem to be on par with each other or I might be wrong.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Historical grievances are hard to forget.

I can say nearly everybody has some sort of grievances that will not heal no matter what.

In Australia, White Australians especially of British descent and Australian aboriginals still have tensions that wont make the country move on. Despite apologies all this talk of reconciliation of both sides. You cant forget centuries of grievances in one night.

Japan and the Usa are great friends but a lot of them still have their grievances the Americans know how horrible they were while the Japanese will never forget Hiroshima.

Japan and South Korea despite both opposing China are at the opposite with each other even in their island disputes you have North Korea backing the South because historical grievances are hard to forget.

Yep thats why i was interested to hear about the Morrocan opinion. A european ranting on about international law had no basis in what I was looking for. I wasnt asking for a europeans legal opinion, i was asking for a Morrocan/personal opinion from a person close to the country.

 

[dani92]

Just for the sake of factual history, 1492 is a reconquest,they just retook what was theirs before.
Not even the Greek members in this forum said something about retaking lands or Turks not belonging in their current territories. The only deluded poster was the one above engaging in idiotic rants about Spanish land being occupied land or the island of Cyprus which has,had for centuries a Greek majority belonging to Turkey. In fact, Cyprus never belonged to Turkey historically, I mean today's Republic of Turkey.

The spaindars themselves don’t belong to iberia and same with Christianianity

 

[dani92]

Neither does it belong to Greece. Ottomans took Cyprus from the Venetians.

Since when was Cyprus, Greek???

Where is the continuity that makes cyprus as Greek??? We can all play this game.

1492 was a conquest not a reconquest when majority of Granada were Muslim. Centuries has passed that the people have become part of the Islamic World rather than Christendom.

1453 like 1492 was a conquest. You have to be foolish to believe that Granada and Castile were the same peoples.

You would also add when mehmed II took the city he brought Christians to rebuild and repopulate the city and it had more Christians after the conquest while what happened in Spain was the opposite.

 

[dani92]

I didn't say Cyprus belongs to Greece, it's an independent state according to international law,populated in its majority by Greeks.
The Reconquista was one of the first anti colonial struggles spanning over centuries, I believe modern day Spaniards have every reason to celebrate their victorious struggle just like I understand that Algerians celebrate their independence from the French or Turks their Independence war.

Andalusians weren’t colonists they were the local visigoths who converted to Islam also the visigoths weren’t natives to Iberia but invaders. The andalusians were not like the whites in America and Australia they are just like the Albanians and bosniaks who changed religion of course nobody call them Turkish invaders expect the Serbs.

 

[Ryder]

Interested with the Ottoman Algeria vs Morocco conflicts.

Because this did not involve the Ottoman Empire. Well the Empire did make incursions into Morocco even intervened in the countries affairs it also took Fez. Ottomans and the Moroccans fought each other but also allied with one another to fight off Portugal and at times Spain. Ottomans also made incursions into Morocco. Moroccans also fought back the Ottomans to beat off their invasions.

Im more interested in Ottoman Algeria itself vs Morocco because this did not involve the Ottoman sultans itself but entirely local to the region. Ottoman Algeria had its own army and its own navy led by a Dey. They can undertake their own campaigns.

Interesting to be honest. They were strong in their own right and stay loyal to the Empire until the Fremch takeover in the 1830s. I cant say the same for some certain province and a man who hit us at our worst time.

 

[Saithan]

I think we got a wee bit off topic here, please stay on topic. Let's not forget that UK has a sliver of land in Gibraltar, but if you ask the Spanish they have different opinion.

Natural borders are the best way of drawing a line. And that would mean Spain principally shouldn't have a claim/own in Africa.

e.g. Denmark owned southern Sweden "Skåne", which effectively meant Denmark controlled the entire straits from Baltic to Atlantic. But lost that, and that's where a natural line ended up being drawn.

I'd say the same could apply to NA. European countries owning islands outside Mauricia, Morocco, Argentina (Falklands) etc. doesn't make sense IT IS a leftover from colonialism mindset.

Algeria and Morocco have some issues they need to workout, but if Greater Morocco is a threat to Algeria I can only say Algeria needs to depopulate the areas and move their own population there and keep it that way for hundreds of years.

Just like how Greece populated the islands after WW1 and WW2, hoe 3/4th of crete's turkish population dwindled. how PKK/YPG/SDF depopulated arabs from the areas in Iraq and Syria.

Social engineering.

 

[Ryder]

I think we got a wee bit off topic here, please stay on topic. Let's not forget that UK has a sliver of land in Gibraltar, but if you ask the Spanish they have different opinion.

Natural borders are the best way of drawing a line. And that would mean Spain principally shouldn't have a claim/own in Africa.

e.g. Denmark owned southern Sweden "Skåne", which effectively meant Denmark controlled the entire straits from Baltic to Atlantic. But lost that, and that's where a natural line ended up being drawn.

I'd say the same could apply to NA. European countries owning islands outside Mauricia, Morocco, Argentina (Falklands) etc. doesn't make sense IT IS a leftover from colonialism mindset.

Algeria and Morocco have some issues they need to workout, but if Greater Morocco is a threat to Algeria I can only say Algeria needs to depopulate the areas and move their own population there and keep it that way for hundreds of years.

Just like how Greece populated the islands after WW1 and WW2, hoe 3/4th of crete's turkish population dwindled. how PKK/YPG/SDF depopulated arabs from the areas in Iraq and Syria.

Social engineering.

The problem is the people of the Falklands want the British. Ceuta and Melila want Spain. Gibraltar has the same problem the people want to be with Britain rather than Spain.

Its going to be hard to convince the people to join another country.

Ceuta and Melilla are not even Muslim majorities they are catholic. Muslims either had to convert, leave or get killed.

Spanish had these enclaves in Algeria until Ottoman Algeria kicked most of them out. Last one Oran was sold to the Dey because the Spanish can no longer hold the city due to multiple attacks and raids.

 

[Saithan]

The problem is the people of the Falklands want the British. Ceuta and Melila want Spain. Gibraltar has the same problem the people want to be with Britain rather than Spain.

Its going to be hard to convince the people to join another country.

Ceuta and Melilla are not even Muslim majorities they are catholic. Muslims either had to convert, leave or get killed.

Spanish had these enclaves in Algeria until Ottoman Algeria kicked most of them out. Last one Oran was sold to the Dey because the Spanish can no longer hold the city due to multiple attacks and raids.

That problem is engineered because it gives access to better living conditions. Just like Hong Kong was and look at them now. Either they have to become sovereign cities (which probably won't survive), or become part of a greater country.

But as long as natural borders aren't kept it'll just cause problems. Though I doubt there are big issues with belonging to Spain etc. So it's just Morocco wanting more tax money etc.

e.g. Greenland is autonomous region, but part of Kingdom of Denmark, that place would be devoured by US, if they ever separated themselves from Denmark for good.

 

[Costin84]

The spaindars themselves don’t belong to iberia and same with Christianianity

Actually, the visigots ruled over an allready Christianised Roman population,a population which generally got Christiniased peacefully, as it happened throughout the Roman Empire in the 3rd to 5th century and, as you know, current day Spaniards, be it they Basques, Castilians, Catalans, are certainly not a Germanic people.