'G-B to be made province soon'

[Saiyan0321]

'G-B to be made province soon'
Minister says PM Imran to make formal announcement soon



ISLAMABAD:
The government has decided to elevate Gilgit-Baltistan (G-B) to the status of a full-fledged province with all constitutional rights, including its representation in the Senate and the National Assembly, Minister Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan Affairs Ali Amin Gandapur said on Wednesday.

Gandapur said that Prime Minister Imran Khan would soon visit the region and make the formal announcement in this regard. He added that Gilgit-Baltistan would be given adequate representation on all constitutional bodies, including the National Assembly and the Senate.

'G-B to be made province soon' | The Express Tribune

Minister says PM Imran to make formal announcement soon

tribune.com.pk

 

[Saiyan0321]

The people of Gilgit Baltistan would be most pleased with this if this was passed. Pakistan did three injustices in the area and that was packing the region to the Kashmir issue and then ruling it as a colony and for a long period of time, it was ruled as a colony and through the vicious and predatory hands of the bureaucracy.

Modern day gilgit Baltistan had three regions which was State of Hunza, State of Nagar and Gilgit baltistan. Now State and Hunza and Nagar acceded to Pakistan separately and rather than make them provinces, Pakistan decided to merge them with Gilgit Baltistan and make them a part of a dispute that they were never part of. This cruelty was not even done by the british and till 1970s the states existed as their own however Bhutto decided to do away with the states and merged them with Gilgit Baltistan and calling it as Northern Areas. The areas that were Gilgit Baltistan fought for their own independence and were independent and joined Pakkisan willingly only to see themselves ruled through bureaucrats for decades to come who kept all the power and representation for themselves but never failed to tax the people.

This step is something that Pakistan should have done a long time ago and the only fear was that in any plebiscite, Pakistan may not win the referendum due to lack of equal population in Azad Kashmir with Indian kashmir and the hostile attitude of Kashmiris in the 1947,1965 war. The entire effort of stamping the Azad government as the legitimate ruler of the entire Kashmir and having them sign Gilgit and Ladakh to Pakistan in the Karachi agreement 1949, was wasted for decades. Lets hope the government actually passes such and brings proper rights and representation to the people of the region

 

[guest12]

No offense but Pakistan literally asking for Balkanization.I never understood Pakistani obsession for de-centralisation.

 

[Nilgiri]

No offense but Pakistan literally asking for Balkanization.I never understood Pakistani obsession for de-centralisation.

Why's that? This is literal representation in federal govt structures....rather than hewing/splitting anything away.

They are different enough people in the end too deserving respect of those differences, if the argument is that they should just be bunched in with "Azad" Kashmir.

Just from my interaction with a few mods (and cpl friendly members too) in an earlier gathering.... I got a better insight into it heh (all positive interactions, but noticeably nuanced differently on some subjects of note, esp when you take some stiffness-for-show kind of stuff out of it).

The precedent is all there in Pakistan for this decision, the downstream reality is all there too (all aired out in this gathering if you know where to look for it or recognise it)...it would be inconsistent logic to apply it another way imo.

@Joe Shearer @Saiyan0321 @VCheng

 

[TR_123456]

No offense but Pakistan literally asking for Balkanization.I never understood Pakistani obsession for de-centralisation.

When looking at it from our pov,you are right but if you look at it from their pov,you'll see that it is the right thing to do.

 

[Saithan]

I also think this move has been neglected for too long.

If we assume that the entire region had been recognized as provinces (GB, Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh etc.) perhaps the division between India and Pakistan could have been prevented. By this I mean having so many soldiers in that region.

Such a move would have made it possible to proactively slice and dice the region strategically too, once the tension had settled down.

 

[Saiyan0321]

No offense but Pakistan literally asking for Balkanization.I never understood Pakistani obsession for de-centralisation.

Pakistan was always meant to be a federation and the provinces themselves predate the country and each have their own hitory. With such diversity where even the provinces themselves are extremely diverse, de-centralization is the answer and it wont definitely lead to balkanization. We have multiple examples of decentralized states that are diverse but are united stronger than ever. Infact i would say nothing has harmed the union of Pakistan than centralization as the country was broken during the time of centralization and Bhutto had also kept the country centralized despite the 1973 Constitution promising De-centralization and the result was that the country, even after 1971 was witnessing massive separation movements. Infact post 18th amendment, all separatist movements have fizzled out, even the baluch insurgency.

Secondly its not even about centralization and de-centralization but ruling the region like a colony. A central power would rule like it did in Pakistan so many times but the way Gilgit Baltistan is setup, its ruling is no different than british colonial system.

Why's that? This is literal representation in federal govt structures....rather than hewing/splitting anything away.

They are different enough people in the end too deserving respect of those differences, if the argument is that they should just be bunched in with "Azad" Kashmir.

Just from my interaction with a few mods (and cpl friendly members too) in an earlier gathering.... I got a better insight into it heh (all positive interactions, but noticeably nuanced differently on some subjects of note, esp when you take some stiffness-for-show kind of stuff out of it).

The precedent is all there in Pakistan for this decision, the downstream reality is all there too (all aired out in this gathering if you know where to look for it or recognise it)...it would be inconsistent logic to apply it another way imo.

@Joe Shearer @Saiyan0321 @VCheng

The people of Azad Kashmir have always tried to claim dominion over Gilgit Baltistan and its not just because of the UN issue but mainly because the region offers great resources like farm lands and river networks and all that potential could be used on the region that makes Azad Kashmir however the people of Gilgit Baltistan have always considered themselves as a separate entity and do not wish to ever come under the suzerainty of Muzaffarabad. Infact bunching them with them is the reason they are struggling with governance, so this would be a step in the right direction. Frankly i knew this may happen for GB when the 13th amendment for AJK was passed and ofcourse later on when we released the new map. everybody kept talking about Junagarh but didnt notice the small division between Kashmir and GB. They get representation and they can speak in the senate and the National Parliament.

Ofcourse this is Pakistan so nothing can be without its politics and the army.

Consensus on GB’s provisional status as province

Opposition says any move before election in the area will be considered pre-poll rigging.

www.dawn.com

The party that brings these reforms will rule GB for a very long time so if it happens before elections its pre-poll rigging.

When looking at it from our pov,you are right but if you look at it from their pov,you'll see that it is the right thing to do.

Indeed. I have often stated that you cant import systems. Each country must find its own version of representation and some choose central states and other chose a more de-central form of government. Some have single party and others have multi-party systems

I also think this move has been neglected for too long.

If we assume that the entire region had been recognized as provinces (GB, Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh etc.) perhaps the division between India and Pakistan could have been prevented. By this I mean having so many soldiers in that region.

Such a move would have made it possible to proactively slice and dice the region strategically too, once the tension had settled down.

Indeed it has been. Its time we shut our mouths and correct this

 

[Nilgiri]

The people of Azad Kashmir have always tried to claim dominion over Gilgit Baltistan and its not just because of the UN issue but mainly because the region offers great resources like farm lands and river networks and all that potential could be used on the region that makes Azad Kashmir however the people of Gilgit Baltistan have always considered themselves as a separate entity and do not wish to ever come under the suzerainty of Muzaffarabad. Infact bunching them with them is the reason they are struggling with governance, so this would be a step in the right direction. Frankly i knew this may happen for GB when the 13th amendment for AJK was passed and ofcourse later on when we released the new map. everybody kept talking about Junagarh but didnt notice the small division between Kashmir and GB. They get representation and they can speak in the senate and the National Parliament.

Yep this was conveyed to me over series of interactions in quite some interesting detail.....from two particular fellows, your countrymen from up there....even with a few Balti words thrown in (What an interesting language that is)....very smart acute fellows both of them....not active anymore (sustained discussion wise anyway) for long time.

It was a good time there to get to chat with pleasant folks from such a different setting to mine, where we size each other up in some sudden political charged cauldron we are thrown into (Honoris Certamen et Gloriae)...but recognise over time we are kindred spirits (Esse Quam Videri)

Now I look back and think back....and I reflect on what could have been there....but I guess whole region is one of "What could have been"...given all these entrenched sordid issues and matters staring us in the face all the time...that can often make good people act foolish...and worse stay foolish till the goodness is sapped from them....

Haha, what a pity this world is...salt of the earth stay rooted...very few make it to a high spot to effect their good heart....and fewer still retain their good heart should they do so. We took the bite of the apple and paradise was lost

 

[VCheng]

The precedent is all there in Pakistan for this decision, the downstream reality is all there too (all aired out in this gathering if you know where to look for it or recognise it)...it would be inconsistent logic to apply it another way imo.

May I please remind you that Pakistanis have refined the art of creating an alternative universe in defiance of all evidence provided by reality to perhaps the highest standards in the world, and no other society is as comfortable with its hypocrisy as we are.

(Edit: Case in point, perhaps belonging in another thread: https://www.dawn.com/news/1580984/opposition-leaders-told-not-to-drag-military-into-politics :lol: )

 

[Nilgiri]

May I please remind you that Pakistanis have refined the art of creating an alternative universe in defiance of all evidence provided by reality to perhaps the highest standards in the world, and no other society is as comfortable with its hypocrisy as we are.

I am finding large pockets of this more broadly everywhere I look....I dont know who are the most and who are the least on this anymore....lotta people just inherit good things and good ways and dont really introspect why and what and how....or they are even ingrateful and spoiled about it and even work to undermine all of it coz its apparently cool and fun and feelings matter over facts. Its pretty disturbing to me.

Anyway I didnt pick this boat, I was born on it and am stuck on it, like everyone else...wheee! Enjoy the trip best you can I suppose.

I for one found some pretty lucid honest Pakistanis there among the din. Some crazy moments where they'd just cut right to the chase and let a few hammers drop on some well deserved heads...oh I hurt your feelings and you called me names and this other one forcibly silenced me, gee that really hurt kinda fellas....I feel each society has a sprinkling of fed up but well meaning stalwarts who put truth above everything else....maybe just maybe at some point there's enough of them in the right places by sheer chance rather than design...and they can make it so it is more by design for later.

 

[Saithan]

Among all this lucidness that will be here for a quite a while, what matters is that you take that first step and then the others.

The first step here would be to establish G-B as a province with all the rights, and once the province has that firmly grasped. They need to take the right steps to galvanize the growth and development of the province.

This is where civilian institutions/society come into picture and pull their load. One year with growth and developments, positive results, then the next and so on.

In this process transparency and accountability is important. Show all of Pakistan the positive effects of this recognition.