Scientific Hydrogen Energy

[Yasar_TR]

Very interesting. For the first time for me, on a purely technical issue, I completely disagree with Mr. Yaşar. IMO, the only area where Hydrogen has a future is large-scale steel manufacturing. I don't think it will even replace natural gas in homes. Because the risk of leakage is high, the current infrastructure cannot be used. Therefore, the entire infrastructure will have to be renewed.

NOTE: BTW, if we want to save the Black Sea from dying, we must to produce hydrogen from Hydrogen Sulfide. Because the poisonous Hydrogen Sulfide gas at the bottom of the Black Sea is destroying the ecosystem in the Black Sea.

That is good; that means there is something we can discuss about.

I agree that hydrogen wouldn’t replace natural gas at homes. In fact to bring such a volatile gas to homes would be madness in our current level of technology. But cheaper electricity will replace natural gas. Already heat pump systems are proving to be more economical. Natural gas and other fossil fuels that are used in industrial scale, will be replaced by fusion energy once the fusion reactors start to become widespread. Again in fusion energy, we will need hydrogen as primary ingredient.

For automotive industry, hydrogen is already showing it can be utilised. Producing safe and robust cartridges is already there. It will only get better. If we are trying to ”save the planet”, then BEV (Battery Electric Vehicls) route is not the route to follow. To get lithium and other exotic rare earth metals to provide for a single BEV Tesla car’s battery pack, nearly 250 tons of earth need to be excavated using “diesel“ powered excavators. When charging these cars how much are we sure that green electricity is used? How many of you would be prepared to buy a used Tesla when you know that after 3-4 years the efficiency of these batteries start to drop and knowing that replacing them is a third of the car’s original cost? Also how confident are we about the due care and diligence of the recycling plants of these batteries that the water used in the recycling process of used batteries, is not mixed with our water supply?

Hydrogen is clean. It has no toxic by products. When it burns, all you get is water vapour. It is abundantly present in the world. It is a no brainer to use it as our future fuel for power.

But it all depends on leading states’ energy policies and the large petrol and automotive companies’ profit vs environment priorities. It may delay in coming a bit. But eventually hydrogen will win. At least that is what I think.

 

[Merzifonlu]

For automotive industry, hydrogen is already showing it can be utilised. Producing safe and robust cartridges is already there. It will only get better. If we are trying to ”save the planet”, then BEV (Battery Electric Vehicls) route is not the route to follow. To get lithium and other exotic rare earth metals to provide for a single BEV Tesla car’s battery pack, nearly 250 tons of earth need to be excavated using “diesel“ powered excavators. When charging these cars how much are we sure that green electricity is used? How many of you would be prepared to buy a used Tesla when you know that after 3-4 years the efficiency of these batteries start to drop and knowing that replacing them is a third of the car’s original cost? Also how confident are we about the due care and diligence of the recycling plants of these batteries that the water used in the recycling process of used batteries, is not mixed with our water supply?

- Transporting hydrogen will not be safe no matter what you do. Also, hydrogen capsules take up a lot of space.
- Total energy efficiency is very low. Solar panels are at best 24%. Electrolysis efficiency is 70%, internal combustion engines 30%. Total: 5%!!
- Exotic metals are the biggest problem, I agree with that. Therefore, I recommend sodium or calcium based metal-oxide batteries instead of lithium batteries
- Another problem for hydrogen is that electric cars will in any case have lower manufacturing and maintenance costs.

In short, old Western Europe and even older Japan will not be able to save their automotive industries that rely on internal combustion engines by simply switching to hydrogen fuel. That train has already left the station.

 

[Yasar_TR]

- Transporting hydrogen will not be safe no matter what you do. Also, hydrogen capsules take up a lot of space.
- Total energy efficiency is very low. Solar panels are at best 24%. Electrolysis efficiency is 70%, internal combustion engines 30%. Total: 5%!!
- Exotic metals are the biggest problem, I agree with that. Therefore, I recommend sodium or calcium based metal-oxide batteries instead of lithium batteries

- Another problem for hydrogen is that electric cars will in any case have lower manufacturing and maintenance costs.

In short, old Western Europe and even older Japan will not be able to save their automotive industries that rely on internal combustion engines by simply switching to hydrogen fuel. That train has already left the station.

Transporting of cartridges and storing it can be sorted out fairly quickly. Look at the liquid gas tubes currently used in Turkish homes. Even with low tech available in last century, it has been in use for over 6-7 decades. With specialised fuel stations and rigorous quality control, it can be viable very shortly.
Using solar panels to obtain hydrogen with electrolysis can be a good way in spite of low efficiency of solar panels. But currently there are panels now on sale in UK that give higher than 30% . In fact this year a new method gave 47.6%.
There is also the method of using Sun's direct light to obtain steam that produces electricity. Apart from the initial capital outlay and maintenance costs, Sun's energy is free.

Cost wise it all depends on economy of scales. With a hydrogen fuel cell powerplant you will have no engine, no batteries . The electrical energy created will drive electric motors. So it is not correct to think that the western countries will be trying to save their combustion engine automotive industries. Their powerplant application will be totally new like the BEVs. In fact it will be more like a step further than BEV. But HEV (Hydrogen EV).

But again it all has to do with the priority of the involved companies. If they do not choose to go through a route of cheaper battery production, and/or choose metal oxide route as you mention, BEV cars don’t have much future.
Then again same can be said for the Hydrogen powered cars. If the related parties don’t invest in the development of the cartridges and cheaper hydrogen supply, then it won’t take off the ground either.

At the moment Hydrogen powered cars use batteries too. But in the future this will be done away with. So for quick results, all that is needed to be done today is lose the combustion engine and charging point. Use on board fuel cell both to charge and provide electricity for the Electric motors.

quote:

How Do Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Work Using Hydrogen?​

Like all-electric vehicles, fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs) use electricity to power an electric motor. In contrast to other electric vehicles, FCEVs produce electricity using a fuel cell powered by hydrogen, rather than drawing electricity from only a battery. During the vehicle design process, the vehicle manufacturer defines the power of the vehicle by the size of the electric motor(s) that receives electric power from the appropriately sized fuel cell and battery combination. Although automakers could design an FCEV with plug-in capabilities to charge the battery, most FCEVs today use the battery for recapturing braking energy, providing extra power during short acceleration events, and to smooth out the power delivered from the fuel cell with the option to idle or turn off the fuel cell during low power needs. The amount of energy stored onboard is determined by the size of the hydrogen fuel tank. This is different from an all-electric vehicle, where the amount of power and energy available are both closely related to the battery's size. Learn more about fuel cell electric vehicles.
unquote

How does a hydrogen vehicle work? - Renault Group

Hydrogen is reshuffling the deck in electric mobility. How do these vehicles work?

www.renaultgroup.com