Navy Improved Victoria Class as the new submarine for Canada

Ted Barnes

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So, we know that a Canadian submarine replacement program has stood up or is about to standup. There is lots of speculation of what Canada will eventually choose. While there is much talk about going with a proven design there are also many who have suggested the RCN going with our own modern design. There are risks such as what AUS has faced with the Collins Class and now with its replacement. I am going to suggest something very controversial and radical. Have BAE Submarine Solutions build an updated version of the UPHOLDER design with the latest in propulsion technology, no AIP and leverage the latest in lithium ion battery technology to increase range and endurance. Even at its worst the Victoria Class are good boats, the fact that the boats were left to their own devices for two years with no maintenance or storage protocols caused all the initial problems that continue to dog us today. The VICTORIA with conventional wet batteries had a range of 12000km and 30 days (about 4 and a half weeks) endurance, new lithium-ion batteries, motors etc. would no doubt extend this. The size and SSK shape of the UPHOLDER design was fine, you could easily enlarge it if needed. No need to Canadianize it as it will already be built with that in mind. Arm it with the MARK 48, Harpoons or NSM and equip it with the latest in sonar technology that the Victoria's have now. Take advance of greater automation to reduce crew sizes, improved crew comfort and resulting build 6 to 8 hulls and purchase enough spares to take the boats to the next 40 years. You could even call it the Improved Victoria Class.
 

RogerRanger

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The defence spending of the English civilization is a disgrace. While China is spending about 10% of GDP, we are barely spending 2%. Australia/Canada/New Zealand really need to get their act together. If we are to defend ourselves from the Chinese/Indians/Africans in the future. Instead of worrying about diversity and national industry, the English civilization must for a capable military force outside of the American Empire. Right now China could take Australia and New Zealand within 10 years military terms, Canada's west coast it could take in about the same time frame. Then you have the demographic issues as well, leading to Chinese backed rebellions within the lands of the English civilization.

All of this leads me to say, there needs to be a new SSK program for the UK/Australia/Canada and New Zealand and the US if they want to join it. The Upholder class was a total cluster, the Collins class hasn't been much better. The Astute class, massively over budget. We need capable, cheap SSK's in large numbers. The Japanese/Chinese/Russians can do it.
 

Ted Barnes

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The defence spending of the English civilization is a disgrace. While China is spending about 10% of GDP, we are barely spending 2%. Australia/Canada/New Zealand really need to get their act together. If we are to defend ourselves from the Chinese/Indians/Africans in the future. Instead of worrying about diversity and national industry, the English civilization must for a capable military force outside of the American Empire. Right now China could take Australia and New Zealand within 10 years military terms, Canada's west coast it could take in about the same time frame. Then you have the demographic issues as well, leading to Chinese backed rebellions within the lands of the English civilization.

All of this leads me to say, there needs to be a new SSK program for the UK/Australia/Canada and New Zealand and the US if they want to join it. The Upholder class was a total cluster, the Collins class hasn't been much better. The Astute class, massively over budget. We need capable, cheap SSK's in large numbers. The Japanese/Chinese/Russians can do it.
The design/hull was good, what is being proposed is to update the internals with modern technology. The Victoria's have the potential to be very effective, just not enough of them.
 

RogerRanger

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The design/hull was good, what is being proposed is to update the internals with modern technology. The Victoria's have the potential to be very effective, just not enough of them.
Yeah that was my point, not enough of them. Also that the British state kind of hung the Canadians out to dry with what went on with the mothball and changes the Canadian navy wanted. Its similar with the Collins class and Astute class, good or excellent subs, just not enough of them and terrible problems with procurement and availability. For the entire of CANZUK you would be looking at 12 subs for Canada/12 for UK/12for Australia and 4 for New Zealand, imagine if we build 10 a year and had tiny program costs because of it.
 

Ted Barnes

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Yeah that was my point, not enough of them. Also that the British state kind of hung the Canadians out to dry with what went on with the mothball and changes the Canadian navy wanted. Its similar with the Collins class and Astute class, good or excellent subs, just not enough of them and terrible problems with procurement and availability. For the entire of CANZUK you would be looking at 12 subs for Canada/12 for UK/12for Australia and 4 for New Zealand, imagine if we build 10 a year and had tiny program costs because of it.
I agree although we would hard pressed to crew 12 subs, unless the crewing requirements were low due to automation.
 

RogerRanger

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I agree although we would hard pressed to crew 12 subs, unless the crewing requirements were low due to automation.
I don't get why its so hard to find people? 100 year ago the Royal Navy had 300,000 people in it, 75% were English. I don't get it, the Chinese and Japanese don't struggle with it. The just bang out ships and put people in them. Too many people who are going to uni and doing financial jobs, not enough people for the armed forces anymore. Again its always blown me away, has the stands of English people fallen through the floor or something? I mean Britain has a 400,000 man army 30 years ago.
 
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LegionnairE

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What's the deal with these big honking ships? Why not something like Type-214? They get the job done with a smaller crew complement. Turkey is even making a smaller one under project MILDEN. (supposed to be similiar to German Type-212 or so they say)

Why is it not enough? Endurance? Seakeeping? Living area?

I don't get why its so hard to find people? 100 year ago the Royal Navy had 300,000 people in it, 75% were English. I don't get it, the Chinese and Japanese don't struggle with it. The just bang out ships and put people in them. Too many people who are going to uni and doing financial jobs, not enough people for the armed forces anymore. Again its always blown me away, has the stands of English people fallen through the floor or something? I mean Britain has a 400,000 man army 30 years ago.

You might want to improve your military high schools and academies. I don't know how you go about doing that but it has a lot to do with prestige, attracting the best and the brightest of the nation to study military science is an important part. For the longest time Turkish army had that going for it. Nowadays due to political events that took place in the last 15 years.. not so much.

Also conscription is important. Turning boys into men you know. 10-20 years ago you couldn't get married if you haven't done your military service. Girl's father would say no. So it has to do with the culture too.
 
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RogerRanger

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What's the deal with these big honking ships? Why not something like Type-214? They get the job done with a smaller crew complement. Turkey is even making a smaller one under project MILDEN. (supposed to be similiar to German Type-212 or so they say)

Why is it not enough? Endurance? Seakeeping? Living area?



You might want to improve your military high schools and academies. I don't know how you go about doing that but it has a lot to do with prestige, attracting the best and the brightest of the nation to study military science is an important part. For the longest time Turkish army had that going for it. Nowadays due to political events that took place in the last 15 years.. not so much.

Also conscription is important. Turning boys into men you know. 10-20 years ago you couldn't get married if you haven't done your military service. Girl's father would say no. So it has to do with the culture too.
In terms of the navy, a huge deal is what lost our fish fleet, which was our best asset for recruitment for the navy, the port towns and fishing towns. I view England having 100,000 fishermen as a massive national security need. Much like having steel so you can build ships.

Also as you send the prestige is important, 100 years ago you were joining the most powerful navy in the world and were going to sail all over the Empire. Now in truth the Royal Navy is the third most important service in the British Armed Force, over taken by the air force and especially the army, SAS/PARA's/Marines. Nobody knows about the SBS, even though they are actually the superior special forces to the SAS.

Also the spirit of the nation is important, or the culture too, as you mention. Britain was loved by the sea, now we don't take any notice of it. We still elite sport sailors, but in terms of the national mood, nobody cares. Which is part of the repression of the English civilization. 100 years ago if migrants were coming over from France, locals would go out and tow them back or sink the boats, now nobody has the will to do that. We were the best pirates in the world, we could capture other ships and steal stuff, now we can't do that. So it all goes into it. Also the defeat of the Empire, the national purpose for 300 years.
 
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LegionnairE

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@Ted Barnes

I found out that MILDEN class will be much lighter:


Still carrying six 533mm torpedo tubes though. Same firepower as Canadian submarines, just low endurance and poor seakeeping I guess.
 

RogerRanger

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@Ted Barnes

I found out that MILDEN class will be much lighter:


Still carrying six 533mm torpedo tubes though. Same firepower as Canadian submarines, just low endurance and poor seakeeping I guess.
Also wouldn't bigger subs be able to have better sonar's, equipment and other things? In general though the British would just need 1,500-2,500 ton subs, for operating in the waters around Britain. Australia and Canada have much larger territories, really should have nuclear subs, but they couldn't afford them unless there was a join procurement policy with Britain.
 

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