India Indian Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Archive

Gessler

Contributor
Moderator
India Moderator
Messages
837
Reactions
38 1,850
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
HTFE-25

1712335793692.png
 

Spitfire9

Well-known member
Messages
310
Reactions
8 389
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
Any evidence of dry Kaveri progress? It says in the article results should be forthcoming mid-2024.

Also, any word on how the GE F414 deal is progressing?

Lastly, the SAFRAN AMCA engine proposition: any signs of progress? I have read a couple of articles recently (probably Indian press) which intimated that the selection of SAFRAN last summer as developer is not a 100% certainty. Reading between the lines, I get the impression that SAFRAN and India may not be able to agree terms on the deal (cost, TOT, who does what etc). If that proves to be the case, does India next see what terms it can get from RR and if they are unacceptable, put AMCA Mk2 on the backburner?
 

Gessler

Contributor
Moderator
India Moderator
Messages
837
Reactions
38 1,850
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
Any evidence of dry Kaveri progress? It says in the article results should be forthcoming mid-2024.

Additional prototypes are being built. Don't know much other than that.

Also, any word on how the GE F414 deal is progressing?

This is the latest:


Lastly, the SAFRAN AMCA engine proposition: any signs of progress? I have read a couple of articles recently (probably Indian press) which intimated that the selection of SAFRAN last summer as developer is not a 100% certainty.

Still a ways to go before a partner is selected.

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that SAFRAN and India may not be able to agree terms on the deal (cost, TOT, who does what etc). If that proves to be the case, does India next see what terms it can get from RR and if they are unacceptable, put AMCA Mk2 on the backburner?

I would imagine so. That's the whole idea behind de-risking the program with staggered Mk1 and Mk2 developments.

If the Next-Gen engine doesn't get anywhere, an interim solution like F414 EPE may be sought at that point.
 

Spitfire9

Well-known member
Messages
310
Reactions
8 389
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
If the Next-Gen engine doesn't get anywhere, an interim solution like F414 EPE may be sought at that point.

I don't think that India will be prepared to pay the price required to develop a modern 110kN engine. I imagine a figure in excess of US$10 billion will be required to include:

- cost of training and equipping Indian industrial partner to be able to use technologies transferred
- cost of technologies transferred
- cost of designing engine
- cost of training and equipping Indian industrial partner to be able to use production technologies transferred
- cost of production technologies transferred
- cost of capital equipment required to manufacture the engine
- cost of iterative development changes, ground testing, flight testing the engine

Throwing $2-3 billion at GE to develop the F414EPE into a 110+kN engine seems very attractive in comparison:

- low risk of design failure
- more predictable development schedule
- low risk of massively exceeding anticipated cost

Assuming I am not wildly wrong with my cost estimates, would it not be better for India to opt for the low cost AMCA Mk2 engine option and to start a serious R&D programme to learn how to design and build fast jet engines? By 'serious R&D programme' I mean scrapping the historical government-owned system involving a large number of entities concerned with different aspects of engine development, getting the right company, the right people, the right plant and equipment involved and GOI being prepared to spend US$500 million+ annually until the objective is achieved (assuming that amount can spent constructively).
 
Last edited:

Gessler

Contributor
Moderator
India Moderator
Messages
837
Reactions
38 1,850
Nation of residence
India
Nation of origin
India
I don't think that India will be prepared to pay the price required to develop a modern 110kN engine. I imagine a figure in excess of US$10 billion will be required to include:

- cost of training and equipping Indian industrial partner to be able to use technologies transferred
- cost of technologies transferred
- cost of designing engine
- cost of training and equipping Indian industrial partner to be able to use production technologies transferred
- cost of production technologies transferred
- cost of capital equipment required to manufacture the engine
- cost of iterative development changes, ground testing, flight testing the engine

A lot of these, especially production-engineering know how would already be transferred as part of the F414 deal much before the NG engine is realized.

Not to mention, Indian agencies are not total novices when it comes to turbofan construction. Licensed production of both Western & Russian turbofans has been ongoing for decades.

Some, like the AL-31FP on Su-30MKI, have seen a very significant degree of indigenization. Including local manufacturing of single crystal blades.

And the Kaveri which was a domestic design did achieve 70-75kN wet thrust in testing. They just couldn't solve the noise & vibration issues involved in going any higher (to meet the IAF requirement) with the tech they had on hand.

Bottom line being, the point of the NG engine program is not to inculcate an aero-engine industry in India from scratch...the point is to help India surmount certain critical technological impasses which would simply take too long or too much in terms of R&D investment to do ourselves.

As of whether the whole thing is affordable or not is anyone's guess...but if you ask me, the alternative (assuming you want to reach the same goal end of the day) is likely to be even more expensive.

Throwing $2-3 billion at GE to develop the F414EPE into a 110+kN engine seems very attractive in comparison:

- low risk of design failure
- more predictable development schedule
- low risk of massively exceeding anticipated cost

It's certainly more affordable (and the likely Plan B in case the NG program fails) but remember that one of the crucial goals of the NG program is joint ownership of IP.

Assuming I am not wildly wrong with my cost estimates, would it not be better for India to opt for the low cost AMCA Mk2 engine option and to start a serious R&D programme to learn how to design and build fast jet engines? By 'serious R&D programme' I mean scrapping the historical government-owned system involving a large number of entities concerned with different aspects of engine development, getting the right company, the right people, the right plant and equipment involved and GOI being prepared to spend US$500 million+ annually until the objective is achieved (assuming that amount can spent constructively).

They're already going for F414 for the Mk1 which will see at least 40 airframes inducted & certified to FOC standard. Which means building more of them shouldn't be a problem if need be.

But the Mk2 standard as its intended cannot be realized without the generational leap in electrical output that only the NG engine can provide.

Even the EPE cannot fulfill that. If the EPE has to come in place of the NG powerplant, then in all likelihood the version it would power would be something akin to a 'AMCA Mk1A' and not a true Mk2.
 
Last edited:

Spitfire9

Well-known member
Messages
310
Reactions
8 389
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
A lot of these, especially production-engineering know how would already be transferred as part of the F414 deal much before the NG engine is realized.

Not to mention, Indian agencies are not total novices when it comes to turbofan construction. Licensed production of both Western & Russian turbofans has been ongoing for decades.

Some, like the AL-31FP on Su-30MKI, have seen a very significant degree of indigenization. Including local manufacturing of single crystal blades.

And the Kaveri which was a domestic design did achieve 70-75kN wet thrust in testing. They just couldn't solve the noise & vibration issues involved in going any higher (to meet the IAF requirement) with the tech they had on hand.

Bottom line being, the point of the NG engine program is not to inculcate an aero-engine industry in India from scratch...the point is to help India surmount certain critical technological impasses which would simply take too long or too much in terms of R&D investment to do ourselves.

As of whether the whole thing is affordable or not is anyone's guess...but if you ask me, the alternative (assuming you want to reach the same goal end of the day) is likely to be even more expensive.



It's certainly more affordable (and the likely Plan B in case the NG program fails) but remember that one of the crucial goals of the NG program is joint ownership of IP.



They're already going for F414 for the Mk1 which will see at least 40 airframes inducted & certified to FOC standard. Which means building more of them shouldn't be a problem if need be.

But the Mk2 standard as its intended cannot be realized without the generational leap in electrical output that only the NG engine can provide.

Even the EPE cannot fulfill that. If the EPE has to come in place of the NG powerplant, then in all likelihood the version it would power would be something akin to a 'AMCA Mk1A' and not a true Mk2.
 

rai456

Active member
Messages
89
Reactions
1 59
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
Indonesia
A lot of these, especially production-engineering know how would already be transferred as part of the F414 deal much before the NG engine is realized.

Not to mention, Indian agencies are not total novices when it comes to turbofan construction. Licensed production of both Western & Russian turbofans has been ongoing for decades.

Some, like the AL-31FP on Su-30MKI, have seen a very significant degree of indigenization. Including local manufacturing of single crystal blades.

And the Kaveri which was a domestic design did achieve 70-75kN wet thrust in testing. They just couldn't solve the noise & vibration issues involved in going any higher (to meet the IAF requirement) with the tech they had on hand.

Bottom line being, the point of the NG engine program is not to inculcate an aero-engine industry in India from scratch...the point is to help India surmount certain critical technological impasses which would simply take too long or too much in terms of R&D investment to do ourselves.

As of whether the whole thing is affordable or not is anyone's guess...but if you ask me, the alternative (assuming you want to reach the same goal end of the day) is likely to be even more expensive.



It's certainly more affordable (and the likely Plan B in case the NG program fails) but remember that one of the crucial goals of the NG program is joint ownership of IP.



They're already going for F414 for the Mk1 which will see at least 40 airframes inducted & certified to FOC standard. Which means building more of them shouldn't be a problem if need be.

But the Mk2 standard as its intended cannot be realized without the generational leap in electrical output that only the NG engine can provide.

Even the EPE cannot fulfill that. If the EPE has to come in place of the NG powerplant, then in all likelihood the version it would power would be something akin to a 'AMCA Mk1A' and not a true Mk2.
Any plans for India to purchase its own testbed aircraft? Why does India still go to Russia for testing?
 

Spitfire9

Well-known member
Messages
310
Reactions
8 389
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
United Kingdom
Any plans for India to purchase its own testbed aircraft? Why does India still go to Russia for testing?
IIRC a very few years ago a serviceable ex-airline A340 could be bought for less than $30 million. Would have suited well as a platform for conversion. My guess is that two could have been purchased for little more than the cost of one Tejas Mk1A. Conversion cost airliner>flying testbed unknown to me, though.

Who knows - India is investing in a climatic test chamber suitable for fighters. Why not get control over engine testing? IIRC flight testing Kaveri in Russia was said to have been high compared to the cost of buying a flying testbed.
 

rai456

Active member
Messages
89
Reactions
1 59
Nation of residence
Canada
Nation of origin
Indonesia
IIRC a very few years ago a serviceable ex-airline A340 could be bought for less than $30 million. Would have suited well as a platform for conversion. My guess is that two could have been purchased for little more than the cost of one Tejas Mk1A. Conversion cost airliner>flying testbed unknown to me, though.

Who knows - India is investing in a climatic test chamber suitable for fighters. Why not get control over engine testing? IIRC flight testing Kaveri in Russia was said to have been high compared to the cost of buying a flying testbed.
Having to wait on Russia for all testing must also delay the program significantly. Maybe they just don't have the capital budget allocated to the program for a testbad aircraft as opposed to flight testing fees which are more spread out?
 
Top Bottom