Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

Gundala

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If it were up to me, I would negotiate an even larger share of the KF-X program up to 40-50% and try to get as much co-development and co-production of every part of the KF-X possible.
I remember I have said this in def.pk sometimes ago. The current 20% deal doesnt benefit us much and just making us potential market for the paper fighter. With the current condition Indonesia can't afford gambling on paper fighter, it needs time to mature just like any other new fighter from any other country. Time which we dont have and money which we dont have alot to spare.

I agree with the statement above, with this kind of project we should either go big or go home. But we shouldnt blame anyone else other then ourselves, we were agreed to it in a first place. But when things get hot it make sense to bail out, cut the lost or re-negotiate, its common practive in business but more sensitive in G to G relation. Time will tell the final outcome...
 

Umigami

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Do they use Israeli D-JHMCS ?
Another kosher stuff possibly come here huh...
Its 6 o'clock visibility kind of suck, isn't it?

 

Gary

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What's your argument that KFX is better than Rafale?
Korea is a newbie in fighter design, and French don't have any desire to buy 5th gen fighter means they confidence enough with their Rafale platform and will never EVER let it out of date.
Newbie doesn't mean that SK suck in designing jets, I'm confident that KFX will be a beast once it enters service.

one more thing France have actually skipped into 6th gen fighter design now

which is more of a system rather than one off fighter jet model.
 

Umigami

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Newbie doesn't mean that SK suck in designing jets, I'm confident that KFX will be a beast once it enters service.

one more thing France have actually skipped into 6th gen fighter design now

which is more of a system rather than one off fighter jet model.
Yeah I know they skip 5th gen and go all the way to 6th with German. But do they really gonna neglect their rafale to be out of date until their 6th gen operational?

And that's another plus for French, because rafale basically give us 6th gen option for the future.

Btw, what's wrong with typing UI?
a lot of feature got turn off in my place here
 
A

adenl

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The issue here is not about 4.5th gen vs 5th gen but more on the how much the Koreans are willing to give vs the French. Our Turkish friends were interested to be part of KFX once and asked for larger share but the Koreans denied them.
At the time the Rafales are in service, the world has moved on to 5th gen platforms.
Again, it's not about the money, but about the limited opportunities to get fighter ToT from the Koreans.
I wasn't referring to money from the beginning, you are constantly bringing it up as if that was my issue.
"The offers put out by France, which one Korean defense industry source said included a much larger transfer of fighter jet technologies, has enticed Indonesia, and according to French publication La Tribune, the two countries are close to a deal."
I don't care about a ToT for technology and a plane that is going to start to become obsolete by 2030.
Larger share: that's not gonna happen, korean want to be the one who lead the program.
Fair enough, perhaps this flirting with the Rafale can force some extra concessions from the Koreans.
What's your argument that KFX is better than Rafale?
In every aspect it either performs the same or better. I would rather sit in a KF-X when fighting head on against any 4.5th gen fighter.
Korea is a newbie in fighter design, and French don't have any desire to buy 5th gen fighter means they confidence enough with their Rafale platform and will never EVER let it out of date.
The French are seeing that the Rafale is becoming long in the tooth and are trying to squeeze as much sales out of it before fully focusing on the 6th gen fighter project, the FCAS.
I remember I have said this in def.pk sometimes ago. The current 20% deal doesnt benefit us much and just making us potential market for the paper fighter. With the current condition Indonesia can't afford gambling on paper fighter, it needs time to mature just like any other new fighter from any other country. Time which we dont have and money which we dont have alot to spare.
The TNI-AU has always lagged behind its counterparts in the region and still is. It has too little fighter aircraft for the size of its airspace, and it's fighter aircraft are too old, too diverse and outdated with little upgrades and little advanced weaponry with little PGM capability. The KF-X gives the TNI-AU the ability to make a generational leap. The TNI should currently focus on upgrading the Sukhoi's, try to get some more (more advanced, not with the OC engine and with targeting pod capability) F-16's and should also start to induct AWACS aside sticking to the KF-X.

Or do you guys want to see the same scenario unfolding again in 10 years time like in the late '90's when Hawks (lmao) were send to intercept RAAF F/A-18's? Luckily for the TNI-AU, no shooting war started between Indonesia and Australia, otherwise it would have been a one-sided beating.
 
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Parry Brima

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At the time the Rafales are in service, the world has moved on to 5th gen platforms.

I wasn't referring to money from the beginning, you are constantly bringing it up as if that was my issue.

I don't care about a ToT for technology and a plane that is going to start to become obsolete by 2030.

Fair enough, perhaps this flirting with the Rafale can force some extra concessions from the Koreans.

In every aspect it either performs the same or better. I would rather sit in a KF-X when fighting head on against any 4.5th gen fighter.

The French are seeing that the Rafale is becoming long in the tooth and are trying to squeeze as much sales out of it before fully focusing on the 6th gen fighter project, the FCAS.

The TNI-AU has always lagged behind its counterparts in the region and still is. It has too little fighter aircraft for the size of its airspace, and it's fighter aircraft are too old, too diverse and outdated with little upgrades and advanced weaponry. The KF-X gives the TNI the ability to make a generational leap. The TNI should currently focus on upgrading the Sukhoi's, try to get some more (more advanced, not with the OC engine and with targeting pod capability) F-16's and should also start to induct AWACS aside sticking to the KF-X.

Or do you guys want to see the same scenario unfolding again in 10 years time like in the late '90's when Hawks (lmao) were send to intercept RAAF F/A-18's? Luckily for the TNI-AU, no shooting war started between Indonesia and Australia, otherwise it would have been a one-sided beating.

I understand now why it feels like we don't understand each other. You're talking about being a user, while all of us here have been talking about being a fighter development program partner.

If that's the case then sure. We can buy many KFX jets, from block-1 (4.5th gen) to block-3 (full 5th gen) without any problem. In fact, I said it already in this thread before, if we still want to operate 5th gen then the clearer path for Indonesia is to buy KFX. Unless we want to skip 5th gen and use the path that taken by Germany, Spain, and France.
 

Umigami

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At the time the Rafales are in service, the world has moved on to 5th gen platforms.

I wasn't referring to money from the beginning, you are constantly bringing it up as if that was my issue.

I don't care about a ToT for technology and a plane that is going to start to become obsolete by 2030.

Fair enough, perhaps this flirting with the Rafale can force some extra concessions from the Koreans.

In every aspect it either performs the same or better. I would rather sit in a KF-X when fighting head on against any 4.5th gen fighter.

The French are seeing that the Rafale is becoming long in the tooth and are trying to squeeze as much sales out of it before fully focusing on the 6th gen fighter project, the FCAS.

The TNI-AU has always lagged behind its counterparts in the region and still is. It has too little fighter aircraft for the size of its airspace, and it's fighter aircraft are too old, too diverse and outdated with little upgrades and little advanced weaponry with little PGM capability. The KF-X gives the TNI-AU the ability to make a generational leap. The TNI should currently focus on upgrading the Sukhoi's, try to get some more (more advanced, not with the OC engine and with targeting pod capability) F-16's and should also start to induct AWACS aside sticking to the KF-X.

Or do you guys want to see the same scenario unfolding again in 10 years time like in the late '90's when Hawks (lmao) were send to intercept RAAF F/A-18's? Luckily for the TNI-AU, no shooting war started between Indonesia and Australia, otherwise it would have been a one-sided beating.
Naaah... all fighters you said are all 4th gen anyway, we'll gonna end up on the same situation.

Just go ahead with 36 F15ex, 36 rafale, dump flankers, more LIFT, and gradually remove Falcon and hawk with either Rafale F4 or KFX.

And yeah AWACS too..
 
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adenl

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I understand now why it feels like we don't understand each other. You're talking about being a user, while all of us here have been talking about being a fighter development program partner.
You are straw-manning me hard right now, gotta ignore you.

Naaah... all fighters you said are all 4th gen anyway, we'll gonna end up on the same situation.

Just go ahead with 36 F15ex, 36 rafale, dump flankers, more LIFT, and gradually remove Falcon and hawk with either Rafale F4 or KFX.

And yeah AWACS too..
It seems your government isn't willing to spend the money to achieve all of that (yet). The least it could do is to upgrade what it has and get some more (advanced) F-16's for some more commonality. It is 2021 and the TNI-AU still has no PGM capability to speak of aside from its handful Su-30's. Sometimes I am wondering were did it all go wrong? As if they haven't learned a lesson from the '90's which showed why air-power is so important.
 

Umigami

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You are straw-manning me hard right now, gotta ignore you.


It seems your government isn't willing to spend the money to achieve all of that (yet). The least it could do is to upgrade what it has and get some more (advanced) F-16's for some more commonality. It is 2021 and the TNI-AU still has no PGM capability to speak of aside from its handful Su-30's. Sometimes I am wondering were did it all go wrong? As if they haven't learned a lesson from the '90's which showed why air-power is so important.
Su30s have no PGM capability.
Isn't willing to spend the money??
08 himself tell we'll buy 36 EX and Rafale
 

Umigami

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Don't they come with EO guided bombs? If not, then TNI-AU is even in a more deplorable state.

Too little and too late. TNI-AU should aim for at least 150 modern twin-engined fighters with AWACS and tanker support. Anything less is not worth it IMO.
Well if that's what your clarification of PGM is, then F16 already got it long time ago with AGM 65
 

reashot_xigwin

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Don't they come with EO guided bombs? If not, then TNI-AU is even in a more deplorable state.

Too little and too late. TNI-AU should aim for at least 150 modern twin-engined fighters with AWACS and tanker support. Anything less is not worth it IMO.
Hellfire missiles are already on the next order. So wait till then.
 

Gundala

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The TNI-AU has always lagged behind its counterparts in the region and still is. It has too little fighter aircraft for the size of its airspace, and it's fighter aircraft are too old, too diverse and outdated with little upgrades and little advanced weaponry with little PGM capability. The KF-X gives the TNI-AU the ability to make a generational leap. The TNI should currently focus on upgrading the Sukhoi's, try to get some more (more advanced, not with the OC engine and with targeting pod capability) F-16's and should also start to induct AWACS aside sticking to the KF-X.
Agree, but like I said we might not have the budget and time frame suited for the project. If we somehow managed to do it then it would be great, tho Im rather pesimistic. AWACS is great tho it would be wise if we upgraded the old GCI radar and fill the blank area with it, that alone need extra budget. Not to mention mrtt, so if Im TNI-AU I would rather have the budget for those rather then to KFX.
Or do you guys want to see the same scenario unfolding again in 10 years time like in the late '90's when Hawks (lmao) were send to intercept RAAF F/A-18's? Luckily for the TNI-AU, no shooting war started between Indonesia and Australia, otherwise it would have been a one-sided beating.
LOL we surely dont, but it wont matter if we get the KFX but lacking in necessary supporting infratructure, military satelite, NCW and IADS. Gen 5 fighters depend on those, heck even gen 4.5 can have great multiplier capability with good IADS. Thats what we should be aiming at, and that we should be prioritizing. Those gen 5 fighter can wait 😁
 

Madokafc

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Indonesian doesn't put priority on the military doesn't equal we got no potential or capability to do so in our lifetime. Soekarno era had shown us determination to equipped Indonesia Air Force with top potent platform at greater number than what Commonwealth can offer, with thousand Times better economy condition and thousand Times better human resource of today Indonesia sure can achieved better than what Soekarno can do in the past.
-------------+++----------

36 Rafale plus 36 F15EX is already more than 70 planes of the top line fighter available in the market. Not to mention there is interim program already in the place and waiting for budget agreement in place for 15 Typhoon.

And if anything the Indonesian government still looking for more used F16 from various sources to Made up the number through this interim program. Some for spare part some for actual Fighter.
 

Umigami

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Indonesian doesn't put priority on the military doesn't equal we got no potential or capability to do so in our lifetime. Soekarno era had shown us determination to equipped Indonesia Air Force with top potent platform at greater number than what Commonwealth can offer, with thousand Times better economy condition and thousand Times better human resource of today Indonesia sure can achieved better than what Soekarno can do in the past.
-------------+++----------

36 Rafale plus 36 F15EX is already more than 70 planes of the top line fighter available in the market. Not to mention there is interim program already in the place and waiting for budget agreement in place for 15 Typhoon.

And if anything the Indonesian government still looking for more used F16 from various sources to Made up the number through this interim program. Some for spare part some for actual Fighter.
That Typhoon is still going on?
BIG FACEPLAM*
 

FPXAllen

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waiting for budget agreement in place for 15 Typhoon
Oh dear God. Just no. Please no 🤦🏽‍♂️

We've already become a showroom, a mishmash of American, British, Russian and, soon, French and more American combat planes....

...But on the other hand, if we've already become like that, then again, some people in the upper ranks might think like this: "Oh, why the hell not!" 😜
 

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