TR Industry, Science and Technology

[Oublious]

Can anyone please explain why Turkey got into the semiconductor game so late?

Also, why did Aselsan choose to make a DUV machine instead of an EUV one?

This video explains why we did enter chip industry late, it is Turkish.

 

[byzero]

Peki bu fabrikayı kim inşa edecek ve hangi eğitim yönetimi bu fabrikayla işbirliği yaparak çalışacak

The Ministry of Industry and Technology wants to establish a domestic chip factory with an investment of 5 billion dollars. Until 2030, the work of companies that produce solar panels such as Tübitak, ASELSAN, Kalyon, institutions such as the Presidency of Defense Industries, etc. continues. For example, Kalyon is working on semiconductor wafer production, Tübitak is working on the 65 nm chip production process, ASELSAN is working on the duv lithography device. The facility to be opened in Ankara in 2028 will be a medium-sized production facility.

 

[Saithan]

I don't feel I got an answer to the question. Just a bunch of names of stakeholders who could be part of it.

If the investment is going to contribute and we rise up as a chip producing nation we need to have solid plans for cooperation with universities and tech companies using these chips for domestic products

 

[Zafer]

Sanırım TÜBİTAK Yital'den bahsediyorsunuz ama İstanbul'da değil, Gebze'de, laboratuvar ortamında 250nm çip üretebiliyor, Katar'daki bir üniversiteyle işbirliği yaparak 65nm çipler üzerinde çalışıyor, tabii ki Katar'ın hediye ettiği 40 milyon dolarlık makinalarla seri üretim değil de prototip üretim yapacak bir tesis.

I don't know how my post ends up being in Turkish , anyway Gebze is nextdoor to Istanbul and is like an extension of the city, so. I am talking about Qatar partnership for 65 nm chips. I would say it should be for a rather small capacity investment but still beyond prototyping. If Aselsan can pull of a DUV machine that would be promising rather than buying foreign made machines as this effort can be upgraded to finer processes over time.

 

[byzero]

Yazım Türkçe olarak nasıl sonuçlanıyor Bilmiyorum :emin değilim: , her neyse Gebze İstanbul'un hemen yanı başında ve şehrin bir uzantısı gibi, yani. 65 nm çipler için Katar paylaşımından bahsediyorum. Oldukça küçük kapasitede bir yatırım için yine de prototiplemenin ötesinde olmalı. Aselsan bir DUV makinesi üretebilirse bu, yabancı yapımı makineler satın almaktan daha umut verici olur çünkü bu çabayla daha ince ayarlara yükseltilebilir.

There is a supply shortage of lithography devices in the market, China even collects second-hand devices. I think it is very difficult to set up a chip factory without a domestic lithography device. ASELSAN will prepare a duv lithography device that can produce 90 nanometer chips for the facility to be opened in 2028, then it will be the turn of the device that can produce 65 and 45 nanometer chips.

 

[Zafer]

There is a supply shortage of lithography devices in the market, China even collects second-hand devices. I think it is very difficult to set up a chip factory without a domestic lithography device. ASELSAN will prepare a duv lithography device that can produce 90 nanometer chips for the facility to be opened in 2028, then it will be the turn of the device that can produce 65 and 45 nanometer chips.

That's because ASML will not supply spare parts and maintenance to China anymore. Türkiye did not have a chip-making ecosystems other than for low production runs. Once we start building that echo system we will know if the west will cooperate or not, but we need to prepare for the worst.

 

[what]

For perspective: there are two companies at best that lead in the lithography space.

 

[mohammadtd]

That's because ASML will not supply spare parts and maintenance to China anymore. Türkiye did not have a chip-making ecosystems other than for low production runs. Once we start building that echo system we will know if the west will cooperate or not, but we need to prepare for the worst.

Excellent preparation. However , would you please shed light on front running companies in the industry. Thank you in advance.

 

[moz68k]

SMIC (China) is pushing ASML DUV systems to their absolute limits (5nm) with multipatterning. I wonder what manufacturer of DUV machines we'll be using before (if ever?) ASELSAN produces something. Probably Canon. We're so far behind that these factories will only serve our military unfortunately.

EUV relies on research from the 90s by US taxpayer funded labs (LLNL, Sandia). That's why the US has so much power over:

1. ASML (Netherlands, EUV systems)
2. Zeiss (Germany, makes the molecularly perfect mirrors in EUV systems)
3. IMEC (Belgium, fundamental IC and VLSI research partner of ASML)
4. TSMC (Taiwan, does the hard work of process development at scale, which even Intel [RIP] has consistently failed to catch up to)

Japan (Canon, Nikon) wasn't given access to this research, and ASML, IMEC and Zeiss were the only ones brave enough to realize it. Now ASML has new High-NA EUV systems that will push the boundaries of photolithography even further. Canon claims that nanoimprint lithography is viable, but this is just marketing for the foreseeable future.

Modern ICs are so advanced and in demand that wars will soon be fought over them. Brainless idealist techbro Sam Altman (who'll be the end of us) wanted 36 new factories from TSMC, and was promptly brushed off because the cost of even a single one is unfathomable. While AI is overhyped to some degree, our demand for compute will grow exponentially. We're too late, but I suppose something (literal early 2000s tech) is better than nothing. I am eternally saddened by how poorly we invested in our nation's development.

 

[Zafer]

SMIC (China) is pushing ASML DUV systems to their absolute limits (5nm) with multipatterning

They are reporting 4nm now.

 

[Chocopie]

Now ASML has new High-NA EUV systems that will push the boundaries of photolithography even further.

ASML's TWINSCAN EXE:5000 High-NA EUV lithography machine (called "tool") is mindblowing technology. It‘s massive and expensive as hell.

165t weight
5-6 months installation time by 250 engineers followed by months of calibration
$380-400 million per system

Intel is the 1st to introduce High-NA EUV (they bought the most of ~10 machines produced so far), 2nd TSMC, 3rd Samsung, 4th SK Hynix.

Installation clip at Intel‘s Hillsboro fab:

ASML’s marvelous promo clip:

 

[Saithan]

When Aselsan developed their first nano chip, I was under the impression that a small production unit would be established and production would start, and that these chips would be used, exported or whatever.

That was back before this forum was established, so before 2020. I don't recall hearing about how the chips are being used.

Later on we heard that we'd be building the nano chip factory from the stuff Qatar had bought in the past and we'd be producing the chips in Türkiye. So how does that go so far ?

Are any of these working are they yielding results ? keeping the public in the dark only benefits the enemy, having secret facilities only benefits the enemies. because when they start killing off your scientists and such you keep everything in the dark, even if we're set back. Public awareness is a must.

 

[byzero]

Aselsan ilk nano çipi geliştirildiğinde ben küçük bir üretim birimi kurulup üretime başlanacak, bu çiplerin devam etmesi, sürdürülmesi falan gibi bir düşünceye kapılmıştım.

Bu forum kurulmadan önceydi, yani 2020'den önce. Çiplerin nasıl bir işletmeye ait bir şey öğrendiğini gösterir.

Daha sonra Katar'ın geçmişte satın alınabilen nano çip fabrikasını inşa etmeyi ve çipleri Türkiye'de üretebileceğimizi duyduk. Peki bu çıkana kadar nasıl gidiyor?

herhangi bir şey oluyor mu, sonuç veriyor mu? Halkın kayıtlarını tutmak sadece düşmana yarar, gizli yerlere sahip olmak sadece düşmana yarar. Çünkü bilim adamlarınızı ve benzerlerini öldürmeye başladıklarında her şeyi basıyorsunuz, geri çekiliyorsunuz bile. Halkın beslenme şartı.

AB Micronano, a company founded by ASELSAN in partnership with Bilkent University, mass-produces gallium nitride chips, which are used in radars. The chip factory, currently under construction, will first produce 90-nanometer silicon chips for defense systems and will later be able to produce for sectors such as white goods and machinery.

 

[TR_123456]

ASELSAN'ın Bilkent Üniversitesi ortaklığıyla kurduğu AB Micronano adlı şirket, galyum nitrür çipleri seri üretiyor ve bu çipler radarlarda kullanılıyor. Şu anda inşası devam eden çip fabrikası, öncelikle savunma sistemleri için 90 nanometrelik silikon çipler üretecek ve daha sonra beyaz eşya ve makine gibi sektörler için üretim yapabilecek.

AB Micronano, a company founded by ASELSAN in partnership with Bilkent University, mass-produces gallium nitride chips, which are used in radars. The chip factory, currently under construction, will first produce 90-nanometer silicon chips for defense systems and will later be able to produce for sectors such as white goods and machinery.

The forum language is English.
Mesajlara bakin lütfen!

 

[No Name]

SMIC (China) is pushing ASML DUV systems to their absolute limits (5nm) with multipatterning. I wonder what manufacturer of DUV machines we'll be using before (if ever?) ASELSAN produces something. Probably Canon. We're so far behind that these factories will only serve our military unfortunately.

EUV relies on research from the 90s by US taxpayer funded labs (LLNL, Sandia). That's why the US has so much power over:

1. ASML (Netherlands, EUV systems)
2. Zeiss (Germany, makes the molecularly perfect mirrors in EUV systems)
3. IMEC (Belgium, fundamental IC and VLSI research partner of ASML)
4. TSMC (Taiwan, does the hard work of process development at scale, which even Intel [RIP] has consistently failed to catch up to)

Japan (Canon, Nikon) wasn't given access to this research, and ASML, IMEC and Zeiss were the only ones brave enough to realize it. Now ASML has new High-NA EUV systems that will push the boundaries of photolithography even further. Canon claims that nanoimprint lithography is viable, but this is just marketing for the foreseeable future.

Modern ICs are so advanced and in demand that wars will soon be fought over them. Brainless idealist techbro Sam Altman (who'll be the end of us) wanted 36 new factories from TSMC, and was promptly brushed off because the cost of even a single one is unfathomable. While AI is overhyped to some degree, our demand for compute will grow exponentially. We're too late, but I suppose something (literal early 2000s tech) is better than nothing. I am eternally saddened by how poorly we invested in our nation's development.

To be fair, it's not like semiconductor technology is going to get better infinitely sooner or later; some believe they will hit a wall defined by physical limits that may even happen in the next 10 years or so.

This video explains why we did enter chip industry late, it is Turkish.

That's fine, thanks.

 

[moz68k]

To be fair, it's not like semiconductor technology is going to get better infinitely sooner or later; some believe they will hit a wall defined by physical limits that may even happen in the next 10 years or so.


That's fine, thanks.

Barring any magical innovation that completely replaces how ICs are designed and manufactured there will always be a rift in technology between established manufacturers and newcomers. This is the unfortunate reality.

AB Micronano, a company founded by ASELSAN in partnership with Bilkent University, mass-produces gallium nitride chips, which are used in radars. The chip factory, currently under construction, will first produce 90-nanometer silicon chips for defense systems and will later be able to produce for sectors such as white goods and machinery.

The chips our factories manufacture will never be cost-effective or cutting edge even for relatively basic ICs such as microcontrollers, but will be critical for self-reliance. We have our niches in GaN, an amazing achievement, because we were in time for that tech. The same sadly cannot be said for silicon.


Quite aptly I encountered an article on the latest Chinese DUV systems:

China’s lithography gains a glass half full, not half empty​

65nm is a long way from the 28nm that China has recently targeted and even further from the 5nm it has apparently reached using imported lithography equipment.

So China, with all its R&D might and near-endless human resources, only just managed to catch up to 2006. How long will ASELSAN take? Very long. Should we still invest? YES.

 

[Saithan]

AB Micronano, a company founded by ASELSAN in partnership with Bilkent University, mass-produces gallium nitride chips, which are used in radars. The chip factory, currently under construction, will first produce 90-nanometer silicon chips for defense systems and will later be able to produce for sectors such as white goods and machinery.

Some sources would be very nice. I think it's important companies that are offspring from Aselsan and others continue the work of Aselsan and continue to contribute to R&D and don't just branch off as a production company. Why because even if a single company can contribute so much it is better that branches continue with the spirit of the parent company and don't turn into a lazy bum.

The forum language is English.
Mesajlara bakin lütfen!

First I was amazed at how well machine translation into turkish was/seemed so good, then around 50-60% it started translating it into gibberish

 

[boredaf]

Nurol Holding apparently bought the remaining 49% of FNSS from BAE Systems. It is completely national now.

FNSS’te tüm hisseler Nurol’a geçiyor: Halka arz olacak mı? | SavunmaSanayiST

FNSS, Nurol Holding’in BAE Systems'tan tüm hisseleri devralacağını ve 0 Nurol Holding bünyesinde faaliyetlerine devam edeceğini açıkladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[what]

Its official, pending approval.

FNSS - Nurol Holding Acquires Full Ownership of FNSS Savunma Sistemleri A.Ş.

www.fnss.com.tr

 

[Sanchez]

Its official, pending approval.

FNSS - Nurol Holding Acquires Full Ownership of FNSS Savunma Sistemleri A.Ş.

www.fnss.com.tr

For a split second I thought you were talking about the YN-ZMA deal...
-
This is interesting to me in few ways. We know BAE was always hands off with FNSS. They just acquired FMC years ago and didn't really touch FNSS in the last 2 decades. I don't remember a single product FNSS offered that was made by or designed by BAE. Everything(Sharpshooter turret, ACV etc were all FMC). I'm interested in what's Nurol's play here, why pour all that money into FNSS when the previous arrangement was working as expected. From what's announced, Nurol won't devour FNSS and it will live on as its own brand and product line. Will they share markets now? NMS sale to Qatar for example was always interesting to me.