Casual Discussion It is now the right time to set up Our Very Own "DARPA" Like Org?

[Madokafc]

Recently since decade ago, Indonesia Ministry of Defense is and alongside with other research institution like CIRNOV, LIPI, BPPT, LAPAN and many State Owned Enterprise like PT PAL, PT DI, PT LEN, PT DAHANA, PT PINDAD and other is very active at military related and defense Development and in search of new technology to be adapted to our own need and situation. Until today we had seen the development of new products like Anoa, Komodo, Rhan 122 mm, Passive radar system, LPI radar, coastal surveilance radar, weather radar, Flir like optronic system , new set of military radio , munition, new assault rifles, underwater vehicles for infiltration, BMS, CIWS and among other system and sub system.

At some points, the research and development is kinda sporadic with almost no inherent joint integration between one system to support other system and resulted in standarized products in line with integration purpose the Armed Forces seems aims for lately. The other emerging issue is like how the research always hampered by lacks of funding and waste of management of assets in the first place thus resulted in the delay of development and insignificant progress over time. The other issue is lack of civillian organization (like private industry and university) contribution into the Armed Forces related program. Meanwhile the work ethic of Government owned institution is very much less desired for apparent reason we already known.

Thus giving question it is the time for the Indonesian government to start to set up our very own DAPA or DARPA to set up and manage Indonesian acquisition system and development of new technology and linked the research system into private owned industry/SOE along with University and giving incentive for them to do so? The lack of such system and work is very much can be seen during KFX/IFX debacle and at some points to several issue regarding of Indonesian high profile acquisition program. There is no clear understanding about where Indonesian Armed Forces modernization program is going to be and what is their own clear goals?

The new UU Cipta kerja seems accomodate the possibility of such idea to arise and developed over time. And it seems Indonesia is at high time to start to properly manage her acquisition program and contribute more into high added value of industry of our own.

Why i think about to set up a more clear and define of purpose and aims and in turn to set up our very own DAPA or DARPA?, because we are talking about large money and resources about to be spent at for Indonesian Armed Forces modernization programme.

Feel free to give opinion

@Chestnut @Logam42 @NEKO @Gundala @Indos and among other member

 

[Madokafc]

Triple Helix system in which promoted by particular Sweden company is actually very interesting concept to applied in Indonesia. And sure we can learn a thing or two about success of Israel and Singapore defense industry (in which at beginning constrained by limited funds and resources) adapted their concept with our own situation and further look at South Korean and Turkey defense industry and learning from them.

 

[joedhie2k]

You can’t have research center without industry. And you can’t have industry without massive and continuous purchase (with profit).

as long as mil procurement is ngeteng n ngutang then dont hold your hopes high

 

[Saithan]

Recently since decade ago, Indonesia Ministry of Defense is and alongside with other research institution like CIRNOV, LIPI, BPPT, LAPAN and many State Owned Enterprise like PT PAL, PT DI, PT LEN, PT DAHANA, PT PINDAD and other is very active at military related and defense Development and in search of new technology to be adapted to our own need and situation. Until today we had seen the development of new products like Anoa, Komodo, Rhan 122 mm, Passive radar system, LPI radar, coastal surveilance radar, weather radar, Flir like optronic system , new set of military radio , munition, new assault rifles, underwater vehicles for infiltration, BMS, CIWS and among other system and sub system.

At some points, the research and development is kinda sporadic with almost no inherent joint integration between one system to support other system and resulted in standarized products in line with integration purpose the Armed Forces seems aims for lately. The other emerging issue is like how the research always hampered by lacks of funding and waste of management of assets in the first place thus resulted in the delay of development and insignificant progress over time. The other issue is lack of civillian organization (like private industry and university) contribution into the Armed Forces related program. Meanwhile the work ethic of Government owned institution is very much less desired for apparent reason we already known.

Thus giving question it is the time for the Indonesian government to start to set up our very own DAPA or DARPA to set up and manage Indonesian acquisition system and development of new technology and linked the research system into private owned industry/SOE along with University and giving incentive for them to do so? The lack of such system and work is very much can be seen during KFX/IFX debacle and at some points to several issue regarding of Indonesian high profile acquisition program. There is no clear understanding about where Indonesian Armed Forces modernization program is going to be and what is their own clear goals?

The new UU Cipta kerja seems accomodate the possibility of such idea to arise and developed over time. And it seems Indonesia is at high time to start to properly manage her acquisition program and contribute more into high added value of industry of our own.

Why i think about to set up a more clear and define of purpose and aims and in turn to set up our very own DAPA or DARPA?, because we are talking about large money and resources about to be spent at for Indonesian Armed Forces modernization programme.

Feel free to give opinion

@Chestnut @Logam42 @NEKO @Gundala @Indos and among other member

Isn't that why Turkey and Indonesia are cooperating on some fields. Wouldn't increasing this cooperation not be more beneficial ?

I know the threats may differ, but that is why you'd diversify development and have different implementation.

 

[Madokafc]

You can’t have research center without industry. And you can’t have industry without massive and continuous purchase (with profit).

as long as mil procurement is ngeteng n ngutang then dont hold your hopes high

Hutang is part of system as long as the state had credibility to take more loans, any Bank would take the risk to finance the projects

But i get what you mean, there is too much demands from our side but not accompanied by more money and better resources

 

[Madokafc]

Isn't that why Turkey and Indonesia are cooperating on some fields. Wouldn't increasing this cooperation not be more beneficial ?

I know the threats may differ, but that is why you'd diversify development and have different implementation.

What i mean is before taking any acquisition projects they must taking a single door process to ensure the ends solution is suitable for our needs, doctrine, and delivered on time and not over the budget

 

[Anmdt]

US doesn't have only DARPA, they have also got Naval Research Center (Office of Naval Research) and maybe others which i don't know.
For DARPA like institution you need strong Universities which can do hard-core scientific research and has got their own labs dedicated for these, sparing these scientific outcomes for application outcomes at DARPA.

 

[Saithan]

What i mean is before taking any acquisition projects they must taking a single door process to ensure the ends solution is suitable for our needs, doctrine, and delivered on time and not over the budget

That is also why I was thinking of the cooperation with Turkey.

And my mentioning the implementation was a reference to the doctrine Indonesian Armed Forces deem necessary.

 

[Madokafc]

US doesn't have only DARPA, they have also got Naval Research Center (Office of Naval Research) and maybe others which i don't know.
For DARPA like institution you need strong Universities which can do hard-core scientific research and has got their own labs dedicated for these, sparing these scientific outcomes for application outcomes at DARPA.

I am aware, very aware of our University condition. It is much demands to pin more hope from them but taking very first steps is equally important.

 

[Madokafc]

If we don't address the problem properly another KFX/IFX saga or Submarine deals is bound to happened more in future as they don't have concept to apply continuation and Progress step by step by rectify the problem.

They complained about the lacks of Transfer of technology and engineering method but it is doesn't being talked and discussed per contract in the first place?

 

[Anmdt]

I am aware, very aware of our University condition. It is much demands to pin more hope from them but taking very first steps is equally important.

1st stage, spare budget for scientific projects, aid universities in those particular projects or supply them with extra budgets if they aim at building labs.

2nd stage, establish a strong scientific center- institution where you collect those scientific outcomes, whom oversees all scientific projects from that point on and allocates state's budget to universities, researchers, labs, on the other hand make universities spare a dedicated amount for research budget of their own with contribution from state budget.

3rd promote companies for R&D, localization of products through the institution found in 2nd step, meanwhile keep increasing scientific capabilities of the center with students graduated from universities supported in 1st step so that the institution would have particular and critical abilities to develop core technology.

4th step, support companies such that they can take the core technology-ability and develop and produce the final product.

In between of these steps;
2.5 step, establish army R&D center which will be in collaboration with scientific center and companies supported in 3rd and 4th step, also will work on ToT schedules and keep these delivered techs alive and transferred between companies institutions.
3.5 step, decide which companies will produce which technology or ability, so they can focus on their job and ignore the rest. meanwhile establish subcontractors small-medium scale business who will do subcontracted jobs and support start-ups for niche abilities-products.

 

[Madokafc]

1st stage, spare budget for scientific projects, aid universities in those particular projects or supply them with extra budgets if they aim at building labs.

2nd stage, establish a strong scientific center- institution where you collect those scientific outcomes, whom oversees all scientific projects from that point on and allocates state's budget to universities, researchers, labs, on the other hand make universities spare a dedicated amount for research budget of their own with contribution from state budget.

3rd promote companies for R&D, localization of products through the institution found in 2nd step, meanwhile keep increasing scientific capabilities of the center with students graduated from universities supported in 1st step so that the institution would have particular and critical abilities to develop core technology.

4th step, support companies such that they can take the core technology-ability and develop and produce the final product.

In between of these steps;
2.5 step, establish army R&D center which will be in collaboration with scientific center and companies supported in 3rd and 4th step, also will work on ToT schedules and keep these delivered techs alive and transferred between companies institutions.
3.5 step, decide which companies will produce which technology or ability, so they can focus on their job and ignore the rest. meanwhile establish subcontractors small-medium scale business who will do subcontracted jobs and support start-ups for niche abilities-products.

That's a very valuable input hope i can bring it on at any opportunity. Thanks man

 

[NEKO]

At some points, the research and development is kinda sporadic with almost no inherent joint integration between one system to support other system and resulted in standarized products in line with integration purpose the Armed Forces seems aims for lately. The other emerging issue is like how the research always hampered by lacks of funding and waste of management of assets in the first place thus resulted in the delay of development and insignificant progress over time. The other issue is lack of civillian organization (like private industry and university) contribution into the Armed Forces related program. Meanwhile the work ethic of Government owned institution is very much less desired for apparent reason we already known.

I believe the SOE holding DEFEND ID that is being prepared is to address this problem, don't know how effective it will be.

Btw about Maung vehicle, anyone know how it all started?
Is Pindad requested by MoD to develop it? Why don't MoD just open tender for local company to develop armored vehicle with set specification? And choose few promising company that submit their proporsal and sign contract with them, each make 1 prototype and just choose the best for mass production.

 

[Logam42]

Okay... what exactly is lembaga keris supposed to do? Isn't it already doing 'kajian'?

At this point I prefer that our DARPA, if we make it, is simply an empowerment of a pre-existing institute.

 

[Madokafc]

I believe the SOE holding DEFEND ID that is being prepared is to address this problem, don't know how effective it will be.

Btw about Maung vehicle, anyone know how it all started?
Is Pindad requested by MoD to develop it? Why don't MoD just open tender for local company to develop armored vehicle with set specification? And choose few promising company that submit their proporsal and sign contract with them, each make 1 prototype and just choose the best for mass production.

Ideally should be like that, that's spurr competition and set timetable for any projects

 

[Gundala]

Recently since decade ago, Indonesia Ministry of Defense is and alongside with other research institution like CIRNOV, LIPI, BPPT, LAPAN and many State Owned Enterprise like PT PAL, PT DI, PT LEN, PT DAHANA, PT PINDAD and other is very active at military related and defense Development and in search of new technology to be adapted to our own need and situation. Until today we had seen the development of new products like Anoa, Komodo, Rhan 122 mm, Passive radar system, LPI radar, coastal surveilance radar, weather radar, Flir like optronic system , new set of military radio , munition, new assault rifles, underwater vehicles for infiltration, BMS, CIWS and among other system and sub system.

At some points, the research and development is kinda sporadic with almost no inherent joint integration between one system to support other system and resulted in standarized products in line with integration purpose the Armed Forces seems aims for lately. The other emerging issue is like how the research always hampered by lacks of funding and waste of management of assets in the first place thus resulted in the delay of development and insignificant progress over time. The other issue is lack of civillian organization (like private industry and university) contribution into the Armed Forces related program. Meanwhile the work ethic of Government owned institution is very much less desired for apparent reason we already known.

Thus giving question it is the time for the Indonesian government to start to set up our very own DAPA or DARPA to set up and manage Indonesian acquisition system and development of new technology and linked the research system into private owned industry/SOE along with University and giving incentive for them to do so? The lack of such system and work is very much can be seen during KFX/IFX debacle and at some points to several issue regarding of Indonesian high profile acquisition program. There is no clear understanding about where Indonesian Armed Forces modernization program is going to be and what is their own clear goals?

The new UU Cipta kerja seems accomodate the possibility of such idea to arise and developed over time. And it seems Indonesia is at high time to start to properly manage her acquisition program and contribute more into high added value of industry of our own.

Why i think about to set up a more clear and define of purpose and aims and in turn to set up our very own DAPA or DARPA?, because we are talking about large money and resources about to be spent at for Indonesian Armed Forces modernization programme.

Feel free to give opinion

@Chestnut @Logam42 @NEKO @Gundala @Indos and among other member

Well you just open another Indonesia Pandora box
I dont think things like DARPA/DAPA, Israel way empowering their def private sector, can do the trick considering economic scale limitation of our def budget. Take some of those and combine on how China did it on early 90's might do the trick.

I have some pointers that might do the trick looking at the fact that our culture, budget systems is different then others:

• Put LIPI, BPPT, BATAN, CORNAV, etc under one roof/Lembaga that have POWER to manage and control them all. For discussion purpose lets call it GODAM (fiction)
• Take off all those budget from various Balitbang TNI and direct it to Kemenhan research budget.
• Create Defence Strategic Paper (like Repelita/GBHN), we wont know what to research if we dont know the priority or even the things we going to need

GODAM will receive order say to design Corvette 85 meters as Kemenhan think we going to need 50 of them in the next 20 years. GODAM will make the design working with any party they want and make the first prototype. Once Kemenhan approved it then they can put an open contract on any shipyard who willing to make them.

We simply cant count on our def SOE/Private sector as they are not big enough. But there is a regulation about the company who is going to do R&D to get certain incentive from Kemenkeu but not sure if its applicable or already implemented.

Next is to give incentive whether in a form of tax, lower interest, etc to company who is purely do defence equipment. This we can copy Israel way.

For SOE we do what China did. For example buying Iver design to be able to license the production here, or get the one from Ukraine/Russia as they are perhaps relatively cheaper. Get them to build the ship and works with private shipyard to make production rate faster (modular). Or we can just do copy like China did and show our muka tebel

Look from the way I see it, its not that we dont have the money. We do, we are G20 country for crying out loud. But we dont have any specific gov body to manage them all, put them on the priority list and submitting budget to make it happen. Our Rocket program is joint research program from various kelembagaan, see how their works? They prolly having problem on whos budget going to pay this and that. Now imagine if I create GODAM ROCKET PROJECT! GODAM will direct the work load, assigning budget, setting priority and goal, coordinate with other university, reporting to Kemenhan, etc. In short if we allocate $1B into GODAM ROCKET PROJECT our Kemenkeu will know who is going to be responsible for the budget.

Oh last not but least prolly wise to revise some of our KUHP or create PP or whatever to protect GODAM from oknum. We dont want our scientist to sink/burn their first Warship prototype then get thrown in jail because their action can be count as "menyebabkan kerugian negara"

 

[Madokafc]

Important thing to notes on which how i am obviously in full consideration not mention it, is Indonesia defense budget for arms procurement at next Ten years slated to be increased by great factor (the most pessimist calculation is by 2020- 2024 each year Indonesia would spent average at 2,5 to 3 Billion US Dollar for arms procurement only). And the data and request put forward by MoD to Bappenas clearly indicated they want more larger increase than what i mention above by each passing year. But this will be a waste of money if Indonesia not doing reform at arms procurement and acquisition of new technology. Indonesian can't and should not be allowed to do haphazard buying.

 

[NEKO]

Ideally should be like that, that's spurr competition and set timetable for any projects

With the current maung we only know that, yeah this is good enough but if there is another prototype to compare we can even choose the good things from each protype (suspension, protection, aesthetic, comfort etc) and combine it for the final product, each company can learn from each other, each company have their own way of doing things after all.

 

[NEKO]

Okay... what exactly is lembaga keris supposed to do? Isn't it already doing 'kajian'?

Yo why lembaga keris is mentioned, ga resmi kan mereka?

 

[Madokafc]

With the current maung we only know that, yeah this is good enough but if there is another prototype to compare we can even choose the good things from each protype (suspension, protection, aesthetic, comfort etc) and combine it for the final product, each company can learn from each other, each company have their own way to things after all.

Instead i am more concerned at standarized things, for example just look at how the Army bought many type of Double Cabin Like Hilux, Triton, Ford Ranger and so on. This will Made complexity at logistic corps and maintenance issue. The other thing to notes is Truck like how much type of truck the Armed Forces had for the exactly same category of vehicles for example 2,5 tonnes class?

We are not yet talking on how they are doing haphazard procurement, like buying main weapon system from China companies considering how complex Indonesia China security relationship, buying dud munition from some countries , buying an old Armored vehicles in which are comparable to our Oldies from sixty decade and so on.

I hope with some organization to arrange our procurement policy, directing triple Helix cooperation in research and acquisition of new technology those kind of "incident" can be minimized.