News Jokowi asks Elon Musk to study Indonesia as venue for SpaceX launch site

Gary

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  • PUBLISHED
    DEC 12, 2020, 3:37 PM SGT
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JAKARTA (BLOOMBERG) - Indonesia invited SpaceX to assess the possibility of setting up a rocket launch site in the country, according to a ministry statement.
President Joko Widodo discussed the idea with SpaceX founder Elon Musk during a phone call on Friday (Dec 11), the Coordinating Ministry for Maritime and Investment Affairs said in the statement.
Mr Musk intends to send a team to Indonesia in January to study partnership opportunities, it said.

Indonesia is already holding talks with Mr Musk over potential investment in the country, with Tesla Inc looking into the possibility of building a plant in Central Java, Industry Minister Agus Gumiwang Kartasasmita said in October.
Indonesia, home to some of the world's largest deposits of copper, nickel and tin, is touting its abundance of the commodities to lure billions of dollars in investment.
 

Parry Brima

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Impossible for Jokowi doing this. This is 100% initiative and hard work done by our wonderful PM.

This pandemic era really shows his qualities and help covering Jokowi's huge weakness in international relationship.
 

schuimpjes

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Impossible for Jokowi doing this. This is 100% initiative and hard work done by our wonderful PM.

This pandemic era really shows his qualities and help covering Jokowi's huge weakness in international relationship.
But, what is sad is, he already said that he will not gonna work in the government anymore after 2024. I hope we get a man like or better than him again after 2024.
 

Madokafc

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Impossible for Jokowi doing this. This is 100% initiative and hard work done by our wonderful PM.

This pandemic era really shows his qualities and help covering Jokowi's huge weakness in international relationship.

He is being granted the Protector of Investor title is no for nothing

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trishna_amrta

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The most viable place (geographical) for orbital launch (spaceport) is Biak. In fact from geographical perspective Biak is the best place in the world for orbital launch, with Guiana came second
 

joedhie2k

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US rocketry industries is limited to ITAR regulations. SpaceX even cannot hire non-american working in american soil. So this will not happen unless JKW kan ask for exception to US govt.
 

trishna_amrta

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US rocketry industries is limited to ITAR regulations. SpaceX even cannot hire non-american working in american soil. So this will not happen unless JKW kan ask for exception to US govt.
What does ITAR have anything to do with it?!
 

joedhie2k

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prevent any transfer of tech without any govt approval..
 

joedhie2k

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that makes spacex will have to only use american worker, to launch american built rocket, in indonesian soil.. we will be spectators only.. this is a bad deal

no manufacturing, assembly, testing, maintenance, launch and recovery can be done by indonesian.. and if we want to buy the rocket itself then there is that MTCR regulation
 

Parry Brima

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But, what is sad is, he already said that he will not gonna work in the government anymore after 2024. I hope we get a man like or better than him again after 2024.

I prefer not. I'm not really fond of our current situation of having president and PM. Let's hope in 2024 we'll have much better presidential candidates without this glaring weakness in international stage initiative.
 

schuimpjes

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I prefer not. I'm not really fond of our current situation of having president and PM. Let's hope in 2024 we'll have much better presidential candidates without this glaring weakness in international stage initiative.
What I was talking about on that comment was Luhut. I was not talking about Jokowi at all.
 

Anmdt

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What does ITAR have anything to do with it?!

ITAR covers anything which can be interpreted into a weapon. Space technology is more than just anything.

from SpaceX website regarding to Internship:
To conform to U.S. Government space technology export regulations, applicant must be a U.S. citizen, lawful permanent resident of the U.S., protected individual as defined by 8 U.S.C. 1324b(a)(3), or eligible to obtain the required authorizations from the U.S. Department of State. Learn more about ITAR here.
 
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trishna_amrta

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ITAR covers anything which can be interpreted into a weapon. Space technology is more than just anything.

from SpaceX website regarding to Internship:
This is about spaceport NOT about transfer of technology. And just like an airport (you know the place where airplanes operate and such) they typically operate & maintained by LOCALS. Again this is about spaceport NOT about transfer of technology. That is why previously repeated my question as why ITAR is even an issue. Moreover, ITAR is about CONTEXT, it is not some blanket restriction.
 

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Don't use capitals, we know how to read. Capitals are worst and inappropriate way of emphasizing a text. Bold or Italic is the appropriate way.
This is about spaceport NOT about transfer of technology. And just like an airport (you know the place where airplanes operate and such) they typically operate & maintained by LOCALS. Again this is about spaceport NOT about transfer of technology. That is why previously repeated my question as why ITAR is even an issue. Moreover, ITAR is about CONTEXT, it is not some blanket restriction.
And what will be launched from that spaceport? -SpaceX rockets, which some parts of it is controlled by ITAR.
From Wikipedia, what is included in ITAR:
...

XV: Spacecraft Systems and Associated Equipment

...

ITAR is not an international arm regulation like MTCR, thus it is at will of US to restrict any kind of equipment, article, text, knowledge falling into sections above. Highlighted part is related to spacecraft systems which includes anything related to it. Thus requires authorization to be transferred, relocated, sold.

It is not open to discussion whether it is subjected to ITAR or not, US is know for its strict behaviour that European or other satellite or space tech manufacturers had to create an ITAR free production line, it is already clear how strict state issite that citizenship, , from SpaceX's webgreen card or special authorization is needed for just an internship, or how they were controlling simple nuts and stuff under ITAR.

If there was a backdoor to avoid it, SpaceX or other private companies would benefit from that by employing foreigners (However US is known to grant citizenship or green-card for critical jobs), aside from relocating and establish a spaceport at another country.

A spaceport where rockets will be assembled,maintained at, launched from will be subjected to ITAR with no doubts.

Regarding to the civil aviation products, stating those are free to export under EAR with specific exclusions:
Some space tech with proven single purpose, civilian, is also free from ITAR but not EAR.
Just in case you may not read:
In general, most civil aircraft, aircraft engines and aviation components can be permanently exported, or reexported (i.e., sold or leased) to most entities in most countries without a license. However, exports and reexports are generally prohibited:
  • to embargoed countries (e.g., Cuba, Iran, Syria, Sudan, North Korea)
  • to persons or entities specially designated by the U.S. government on various barred entity/persons lists
  • if the exporter knows or has reason to know the product will be used in certain unlawful uses, such as the development of weapons of mass destruction, or, in the case of China, a military end-use (see Recent Developments below)
Which means US has excluded civil aviation products manufactured for single, civilian purpose, still subjects to EAR (Export Administration Regulation).
Over the last year, the U.S. government has initiated a number of investigations and enforcement actions designed to prevent Iran from obtaining U.S. origin aircraft, engines, and aviation components. BIS and OFAC have targeted aviation parts suppliers both in the U.S. and overseas, in transactions where aviation parts were allegedly ultimately destined for Iran. In addition, BIS has targeted foreign air carriers and aircraft owners/lessors, for allegedly attempting to sell, lease, or charter aircraft to Iranian airlines.

Even in situations where the exporter has no knowledge of a subsequent reexport to Iran, investigations of U.S. persons can be invasive and disruptive. In addition, funds transfers may be blocked or rejected and designation of entities can have serious repercussions not only on a designated entity, but also on lenders, lessors and other business partners.
And when it may subject to ITAR:
In August 2008, the State Department published rules seeking to provide some clarity as to when an engine or aircraft component would be controlled as a military item under ITAR versus as a “dual-use” item under EAR.6 Basically, the rules state that:
  • if designed exclusively for civil (non-military) aircraft, aircraft engines and aviation components will be controlled under the “dual-use” EAR regime
  • if designed for military aircraft or military aircraft engines, an aviation part or component will be controlled under the ITAR
  • if the part or component does not fall in one of the above (such as components that are to be used on civil and military variants of the same basic engine), the test gets more complex. In general, if the part or component is (i) “standard equipment”; (ii) covered under an FAA type certificate or supplemental type certificate (excluding certain military commercial derivative aircraft); and (iii) forms an integral part of such aircraft, then generally it will be controlled under the EAR as a “dual-use” item. However, certain new design components including hot section components such as blades, vanes, discs, full authority digital engine controls and digital electronic engine controls will require advance classification by the State Department.7

Furthermore, space tech may also subject to MTCR; personnel which operates, maintains the facility and equipment might be restricted with nationality of the origin state:
Greatest restraint is applied to what are known as Category I items. These items include complete rocket systems (including ballistic missiles, space launch vehicles and sounding rockets) and unmanned air vehicle systems (including cruise missiles systems, target and reconnaissance drones) with capabilities exceeding a 300km/500kg range/payload threshold; production facilities for such systems; and major sub-systems including rocket stages, re-entry vehicles, rocket engines, guidance systems and warhead mechanisms.
 
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Nilgiri

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Definitely the other investments (Tesla) etc interest me lot more than the SpaceX thing here.

Skipping past the issues already discussed in this thread, SpaceX like any aerospace company is very logistics intensive and reliant. They need a dedicated, assured infra at hand to their launch activities in general...I do not see them stretching it all that much across an ocean.

There was lot of problems keeping things segregated for this even with ideas like SeaLaunch etc too given political climate now too compared to 90s "Sweetspot" for it (when sealaunch established).

From ground up a spaceport complex like the one in French Guiana need to be done....and it would have to compete with spaceX looking at their own ESA-French Guiana collab option (if this model meets financial sense to them overall)....like way ESA and russians did for soyuz rocket system at French Guiana for cpl decades now....i.e simply having a spaceX platform there. Also look how French Guiana gets this because its basically part of France politically (compare to separate country to Indonesia).

The costs/risks (to advantages) for spaceX have to make sense for some longer sense of time, by which many more launch options may also appear that fundamentally change need for launchpads/ports (equator located or not) too.

Given political consideration on top and the ITAR issue etc (and complete segregation of all that adding up costs too for little advantage to indonesia)....I don't think it will happen.

I think best way for Indonesia to progress in space is keep as much multi-lateral cooperation as possible....take all the good investment opportunities that come your way for things like Tesla (hard factories that will employ indonesians and give corporate interaction etc)....grow economy and tax those and give fiscal support from all of that to Indonesian space program...so sounding rocket development is very strong and established and then you build tiers above that and move to own large spaceport for your own assured program over time. Foreign-need Spaceport idea is kind of high risk hail mary.
 

trishna_amrta

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Don't use capitals, we know how to read. Capitals are worst and inappropriate way of emphasizing a text. Bold or Italic is the appropriate way.
Hey HOMBRE if you got a problem with me take it to the MOD by clicking that report button down there assuming you can see it. Here's a thing you need to know. I don't give care if I get banned from any forum. I'm not the one at loss. I don't get paid here anyway
 

trishna_amrta

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Skipping past the issues already discussed in this thread, SpaceX like any aerospace company is very logistics intensive and reliant. They need a dedicated, assured infra at hand to their launch activities in general...I do not see them stretching it all that much across an ocean.
I just don't see how the payload will be transport in a cost-efficient manner across the Pacific Ocean

There was lot of problems keeping things segregated for this even with ideas like SeaLaunch etc too given political climate now too compared to 90s "Sweetspot" for it (when sealaunch established).
Are you referring SeaLaunch the ship thingy or generic term of launching an orbital vehicle from the sea?

SeaLaunch (the ship) have inherited size limit due (not big enough ship for heavy payload). While launching super heavy payload from the sea (think of the old SeaDragon concept) also have operational practicality limit which is sea weather and location. The launching location is the critical point, because in general you want the launch site as close as possible to the equator to save propellant mass, along with area free of population eastward of the launch site

I think best way for Indonesia to progress in space is keep as much multi-lateral cooperation as possible....take all the good investment opportunities that come your way for things like Tesla (hard factories that will employ indonesians and give corporate interaction etc)....grow economy and tax those and give fiscal support from all of that to Indonesian space program...so sounding rocket development is very strong and established and then you build tiers above that and move to own large spaceport for your own assured program over time. Foreign-need Spaceport idea is kind of high risk hail mary.
I don't see it happening myself. The supporting industry capability isn't there yet for any foreseeable future. And most importantly the education sector still legging too far behind to produce the necessary human resource. The work ethic also fare similar to the education sector.
 

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