TR Land Vehicle Programs

Bmx98

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If this source is reliable, Tumosan might have finally finished the work on their engines and are begining deliveries. This is huge if true, people who have followed closely ÖMTTZA program know how important it is for the turkish land forces to vitalize such a project.
 

valarmogu

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ASELSAN’s Chile’s Leopard 2A4 MBTs, which ASELSAN will modernise.

The fire control system will be replaced with ASELSAN’s VOLKAN, and a SARP-type RCWS will be integrated to provide additional firepower.

The gunner's optics will also be upgraded with KARTALGÖZÜ series sights. Laser and missile warning systems against ATGMs will be installed and an electro-optical system for the commander will be added.

 

Kartal1

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Hear me out! I think with the recent developments in Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia, our increased military footprint and the trend which points at increase of military conflicts including in regions which are of great importance for Turkiye points out that we should reintroduce a lightly armored and highly mobile vehicle to the armed forces.

The terrorism threat, the mountainous terrain and terrorists who adapt and adopt the most recent and deadly methods of employing IEDs forced us to abandon concepts like Otokar Engerek for heavier MRAPs like BMC's Kirpi and Vuran. Both extremely useful and needed.

With our introduction to the cross-border operations in Syria the Turkish Armed Forces and especially the Special Forces Command felt the need for lightly armored, highly mobile vehicle which introduces an unmatched situational awareness and found solution in the king of the war zones from west to the east... a Toyota Hilux. The Toyotas were urgently modified with moderate protection measures and high caliber guns and were sent to our soldiers in the field during operation Olive Branch. They served good, but we could've done it better?

Otokar Engerek

1716073355808.png


Toyota Hilux modified for the Turkish SF:

1716073425734.png

1716073529445.png


I think it is time to think about this concept again. Let's look what the US is thinking about:

1716073751735.png


You can see the firepower of this platoon and the versatility such a vehicle provides.

Fortunately we got something comparable to the Otokar with their Ural SOV vehicle.

1716074328670.png


The URAL Special Operations Vehicle (SOV), a new variant of the versatile modular URAL 4x4 armored platform, was launched and showed for the first time to the public during IDEF 2019.

The URAL platform, a unique product of OTOKAR's innovative approach, is designed to meet the need for 4x4 armored or non-armored tactical vehicles of different users with a versatile and modular solution. With its modular structure and dimensions, the URAL platform can be easily adapted to the equipment, weapon systems and configurations required by different missions and versions customized to client requests are currently used in numerous domestic and foreign missions.

Designed for the needs of military units and other security forces engaged in special operations, the URAL Special Operations Vehicle delivers superior mobility as well as high ballistic, mine and side ballistic protection for its crew, thanks to the armored semi-body, base and firewall.

The URAL SOV has a capacity of carrying 5 personnel including the commander and driver while ensuring high tactical mobility performance in the most challenging terrain and climatic conditions. The vehicle can be equipped with 12.7mm weapons on the roof and 7.62mm weapons in the front and rear, offering an ideal solution for conducting reconnaissance and stealthy military operations.

As stated above it is a very good and considerable solution not only for special operations, but also reconnaissance and military operations requiring stealth. It has a range of 600km which is actually not bad and with the ligher SOV version + additional fuel I suspect this would increase. Of course it is not as good as a dedicated long range patrol vehicle with a range of 1500km, but it is a very good option in my opinion.

Other than the SOF I think the Airborne Brigade would appreciate such a vehicle which is light enough to be dropped with a parachute by a plane. Mobile enough to move fast out of the drop zone, carrying the soldiers to their destination without problems, small enough to camouflage and deadly enough to hit and neutralize enemy forces including heavy armor due to the modularity and the gems it can carry inside.

I think this vehicle along with a specially configured long range patrol vehicle based on a Toyota Land Hilux for example have its place in TSK.
 

boredaf

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Hear me out! I think with the recent developments in Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia, our increased military footprint and the trend which points at increase of military conflicts including in regions which are of great importance for Turkiye points out that we should reintroduce a lightly armored and highly mobile vehicle to the armed forces.

The terrorism threat, the mountainous terrain and terrorists who adapt and adopt the most recent and deadly methods of employing IEDs forced us to abandon concepts like Otokar Engerek for heavier MRAPs like BMC's Kirpi and Vuran. Both extremely useful and needed.

With our introduction to the cross-border operations in Syria the Turkish Armed Forces and especially the Special Forces Command felt the need for lightly armored, highly mobile vehicle which introduces an unmatched situational awareness and found solution in the king of the war zones from west to the east... a Toyota Hilux. The Toyotas were urgently modified with moderate protection measures and high caliber guns and were sent to our soldiers in the field during operation Olive Branch. They served good, but we could've done it better?

Otokar Engerek

View attachment 68103

Toyota Hilux modified for the Turkish SF:

View attachment 68104
View attachment 68105

I think it is time to think about this concept again. Let's look what the US is thinking about:

View attachment 68108

You can see the firepower of this platoon and the versatility such a vehicle provides.

Fortunately we got something comparable to the Otokar with their Ural SOV vehicle.

View attachment 68109

The URAL Special Operations Vehicle (SOV), a new variant of the versatile modular URAL 4x4 armored platform, was launched and showed for the first time to the public during IDEF 2019.

The URAL platform, a unique product of OTOKAR's innovative approach, is designed to meet the need for 4x4 armored or non-armored tactical vehicles of different users with a versatile and modular solution. With its modular structure and dimensions, the URAL platform can be easily adapted to the equipment, weapon systems and configurations required by different missions and versions customized to client requests are currently used in numerous domestic and foreign missions.

Designed for the needs of military units and other security forces engaged in special operations, the URAL Special Operations Vehicle delivers superior mobility as well as high ballistic, mine and side ballistic protection for its crew, thanks to the armored semi-body, base and firewall.

The URAL SOV has a capacity of carrying 5 personnel including the commander and driver while ensuring high tactical mobility performance in the most challenging terrain and climatic conditions. The vehicle can be equipped with 12.7mm weapons on the roof and 7.62mm weapons in the front and rear, offering an ideal solution for conducting reconnaissance and stealthy military operations.

As stated above it is a very good and considerable solution not only for special operations, but also reconnaissance and military operations requiring stealth. It has a range of 600km which is actually not bad and with the ligher SOV version + additional fuel I suspect this would increase. Of course it is not as good as a dedicated long range patrol vehicle with a range of 1500km, but it is a very good option in my opinion.

Other than the SOF I think the Airborne Brigade would appreciate such a vehicle which is light enough to be dropped with a parachute by a plane. Mobile enough to move fast out of the drop zone, carrying the soldiers to their destination without problems, small enough to camouflage and deadly enough to hit and neutralize enemy forces including heavy armor due to the modularity and the gems it can carry inside.

I think this vehicle along with a specially configured long range patrol vehicle based on a Toyota Land Hilux for example have its place in TSK.
I like the idea and the only problem I see with this is the open top, any vehicle we might have for this purpose absolutely needs an armoured roof, as one undetected terrorist with a drone and a grenade can cause big problems for it.
 

Kartal1

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I like the idea and the only problem I see with this is the open top, any vehicle we might have for this purpose absolutely needs an armoured roof, as one undetected terrorist with a drone and a grenade can cause big problems for it.
This is where you sacrifice weight and protection for mobility, situational awareness, range and stealth.

This would be a vehicle optimized for the above factors. It would rarely see direct actions, but be more of a reconnaissance vehicle which will be equipped to sustain a stay for ~72h or longer of a long range patrol team or special reconnaissance team in the open, optimized for flat terrain where the range which a reconnaissance patrol is expected to cover is far bigger than for example on flat terrain. In simple terms this would be an ATV suited for 4-5 people onboard with an integrated communication system, navigation systems and self defence measures and extra fuel/supplies configured according to the needs of the patrolling force.

I would like to quote a part from an article found here: https://humanglemedia.com/british-long-range-reconnaissance-contingent-conduct-first-patrol-in-mali/ :

“Part of the patrol was test-firing weapons. From machine guns to grenade launchers to anti-tank rockets, the Task Group is one of the most heavily armed units in UN MINUSMA,” said Meddings.

He added that “But it’s also much more than that. It’s a tool to protect civilians and listen to their concerns. That means getting out, meeting people and even playing a quick game of noughts and crosses in the sand.”

Meddings stated that the tour was about people, not just weapons, highlighting that it means meeting Malians in towns and meeting the nomads who travel across the country with their herds.

During the patrol, the contingent was reported to have moved out of the desert and onto the major roads, protecting traffic from criminals and illegal armed groups.

The British Long Range Reconnaissance Group comprises specialists from across the Army, including infantry and reconnaissance soldiers, drone operators, electronic warfare teams and a high-tech surgical team.

In Dec., troops from the Light Dragoons and Royal Anglian Regiment arrived in Mali as the first rotation of soldiers to take part in the UN mission in the country.

Their role involved providing specialist long-range surveillance for the United Nations mission and gathering intelligence." end of quote

Examples are the following:

The British "Jackal":

1716140353794.png


Jordanian "Al-Thalab":

1716140434637.png


French "VPS-1":

1716140559133.png


Norwegian "MRLPV"

1716141320423.png


Mauritanian "Camel":

Wait what!?!?!

1716141559777.png


Jokes aside, we can see different examples from the armed forces around the world regarding a vehicle suited for reconnaissance patrol operations in such a terrain. There are options with covered tops as you mentioned too, but I am not sure if they are armored.

@Knowledgeseeker Hey, bro! How do you tackle the issue of patrolling in the desert of Morocco?
 

boredaf

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I would like to quote a part from an article found here: https://humanglemedia.com/british-long-range-reconnaissance-contingent-conduct-first-patrol-in-mali/ :

“Part of the patrol was test-firing weapons. From machine guns to grenade launchers to anti-tank rockets, the Task Group is one of the most heavily armed units in UN MINUSMA,” said Meddings.

He added that “But it’s also much more than that. It’s a tool to protect civilians and listen to their concerns. That means getting out, meeting people and even playing a quick game of noughts and crosses in the sand.”

Meddings stated that the tour was about people, not just weapons, highlighting that it means meeting Malians in towns and meeting the nomads who travel across the country with their herds.

During the patrol, the contingent was reported to have moved out of the desert and onto the major roads, protecting traffic from criminals and illegal armed groups.

The British Long Range Reconnaissance Group comprises specialists from across the Army, including infantry and reconnaissance soldiers, drone operators, electronic warfare teams and a high-tech surgical team.

In Dec., troops from the Light Dragoons and Royal Anglian Regiment arrived in Mali as the first rotation of soldiers to take part in the UN mission in the country.

Their role involved providing specialist long-range surveillance for the United Nations mission and gathering intelligence." end of quote
Mate, that article is from 3 years ago. After Ukraine, everyone and their nans are fielding obscene amounts of drones that can drop munitions. Direct action is a relative term nowadays, your aim might be just fast recon but 1 guy several kms away might spot you and suddenly you have a drone that can go up to 100 kms with a grenade coming after you. I've seen those drones hitting all kinds of vehicles while they are going and I'm sure you have as well.

And let's not forget, terrorists we have to deal with are better armed and trained, thanks to all the state actors supporting them, they are not just a group of extremists on motorcycles with Cold War AK-47s on their hands. We have to take that into account as well whenever we design something.

While I like the idea of a dedicated fast recon / fast response vehicle, I'm not sure we can go with something as lightweight as those examples are.
 

Knowledgeseeker

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This is where you sacrifice weight and protection for mobility, situational awareness, range and stealth.

This would be a vehicle optimized for the above factors. It would rarely see direct actions, but be more of a reconnaissance vehicle which will be equipped to sustain a stay for ~72h or longer of a long range patrol team or special reconnaissance team in the open, optimized for flat terrain where the range which a reconnaissance patrol is expected to cover is far bigger than for example on flat terrain. In simple terms this would be an ATV suited for 4-5 people onboard with an integrated communication system, navigation systems and self defence measures and extra fuel/supplies configured according to the needs of the patrolling force.

I would like to quote a part from an article found here: https://humanglemedia.com/british-long-range-reconnaissance-contingent-conduct-first-patrol-in-mali/ :

“Part of the patrol was test-firing weapons. From machine guns to grenade launchers to anti-tank rockets, the Task Group is one of the most heavily armed units in UN MINUSMA,” said Meddings.

He added that “But it’s also much more than that. It’s a tool to protect civilians and listen to their concerns. That means getting out, meeting people and even playing a quick game of noughts and crosses in the sand.”

Meddings stated that the tour was about people, not just weapons, highlighting that it means meeting Malians in towns and meeting the nomads who travel across the country with their herds.

During the patrol, the contingent was reported to have moved out of the desert and onto the major roads, protecting traffic from criminals and illegal armed groups.

The British Long Range Reconnaissance Group comprises specialists from across the Army, including infantry and reconnaissance soldiers, drone operators, electronic warfare teams and a high-tech surgical team.

In Dec., troops from the Light Dragoons and Royal Anglian Regiment arrived in Mali as the first rotation of soldiers to take part in the UN mission in the country.

Their role involved providing specialist long-range surveillance for the United Nations mission and gathering intelligence." end of quote

Examples are the following:

The British "Jackal":

View attachment 68125

Jordanian "Al-Thalab":

View attachment 68126

French "VPS-1":

View attachment 68127

Norwegian "MRLPV"

View attachment 68128

Mauritanian "Camel":

Wait what!?!?!

View attachment 68129

Jokes aside, we can see different examples from the armed forces around the world regarding a vehicle suited for reconnaissance patrol operations in such a terrain. There are options with covered tops as you mentioned too, but I am not sure if they are armored.

@Knowledgeseeker Hey, bro! How do you tackle the issue of patrolling in the desert of Morocco?

The Moroccan Sahara is bigger than the land area of the United Kingdom so it's a very complex, and difficult task to manage. On top of that, we need to have active surveillance on the borders with Mauritania because the Algerian proxy group "polisario" infiltrates Mauritania where they launch missiles. More than 800 km from north to south to monitor using surveillance radars, as well as drones such as wing long 2, and TB-2 to do surveillance missions. We also have smaller drones such as Thunder-B, and Wander-B drone.

In regards to reconnaissance patrol that takes place on the ground is limited, but I can refer you back to the scenes that have taken place in the Sahara war, as well as a platform that is used even today. The Toyota pickup trucks played a vital role during the Sahara war, and still play a vital role today. The leadership still insists on keeping it because of its speed, and flexibility. In recent times we see that an anti-tank launcher has been used when the vehicle is not in motion, as well as heavier guns mounted on it. With the introduction of RCWS solutions, we might change the manual solutions that are currently taking place. What matters at the end of the day is to have a vehicle that is fast, flexible, and reliable in the desert environment. Special forces of all the leading armies in the world are using such solutions in a desert environment, and it's for a reason.

 

Kartal1

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Mate, that article is from 3 years ago. After Ukraine, everyone and their nans are fielding obscene amounts of drones that can drop munitions. Direct action is a relative term nowadays, your aim might be just fast recon but 1 guy several kms away might spot you and suddenly you have a drone that can go up to 100 kms with a grenade coming after you. I've seen those drones hitting all kinds of vehicles while they are going and I'm sure you have as well.

And let's not forget, terrorists we have to deal with are better armed and trained, thanks to all the state actors supporting them, they are not just a group of extremists on motorcycles with Cold War AK-47s on their hands. We have to take that into account as well whenever we design something.

While I like the idea of a dedicated fast recon / fast response vehicle, I'm not sure we can go with something as lightweight as those examples are.
While this is true I don't see any change in the concept of reconnaissance, special operations and long range patrol vehicles around the world. In the case of Ukraine, the SOF don't move in MRAPs or ACVs when going out for diversion or reconnaissance operations. We see them moving in Polaris type light vehicles, ATVs, motorcycles and even electric bikes. These vehicles are not suited for reconnaissance in force operation. A reconnaissance unit typically has the means of detecting earlier whatever comes to it. If things gets heated up then it has the means to break contact and evacuate. This is it and nothing more. For a reference on what to expect I can say that a good reconnaissance unit moves at tempo ~600m/h on foot. This means that there is no rapid movement and everything is scanned according to the SLLS protocol according to the unit's SOP. The same concept is applied to the movement with vehicles. If it happens that someone spotted you before you spotted him despite the means of reconnaissance and surveillance given to you, then this is a failure of the reconnaissance team. For a reconnaissance in force operations I would fully agree with you. In this case I would prefer not only a roof, but a whole MRAP on my disposal.

For the kind of operation I am talking about there is absolutely no need for heavily armored vehicle especially when it comes to long range patrol scenarios. In area or zone reconnaissance the unit infiltrates to a point where it camouflages the means for transport, sets up a main camp and send 2-4 men reconnaissance teams that set up observation points on suitable places depending on the objective of the mission. In forest, mountain terrain you can get away with moving with an ATV or motorcycle, but the duration of the reconnaissance mission is limited to 3-5 days at most for a good trained reconnaissance unit and little to no self defence capability. There are units which are capable to stay for up to 15 days undetected (if proper logistic support is ensured) and they can cover 25-50km2 in 24 hours depending on the support and objectives.

When it comes to a long range patrol (reconnaissance) it basically means covering big distances (low profile), establishing camps and observation points on suitable places for reconnaissance and surveillance, visiting civilians in small rural places where usually there is no coverage, conducting HUMINT. There are no terrorists to fight, but to observe and if the observation don't go as planned or you become overly adventurous you either return fire, request support, run hoping that you have a bigger range and the enemy will not outmaneuver you or end up like the US Special Forces personnel that lost their lives in the notorious Tongo Tongo ambush in Niger, 2017. A reconnaissance operation ending up as an ongoing direct action for which I think the reconnaissance team was not properly prepared. They were riding on shiny Toyota Land Cruisers with no self defence measures as far as I know.

For the situations where the last scenario is more likely to happen and the close range surveillance is likely to be screwed (together with the whole team) you better provoke them (reconnaissance in force concept), locate them and retreat. They get spotted by you, hopefully an airborne ISR aircraft and a bomb is sent at them.

For this I would likely prefer the below solution:

Otokar Akrep II Armoured Reconnaissance Vehicle

1716153533611.png


EDIT:

Something to add to the long range reconnaissance. Long range reconnaissance operations are extremely requiring operations in terms of training. As far as I know Turkiye doesn't posses a long range reconnaissance unit, but has experience in long duration reconnaissance in mountainous terrains. Long range reconnaissance training is provided by the NATO International Special Training Center of which Turkiye is a member from 1999 and represent the country with instructors from different branches.
 

boredaf

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Any new information about equivalent Turkish UGV projects ?

Iirc, FNSS made one prototype unmanned M113 during last upgrade, but no idea what happened after that, I don't think military ordered more of it. They also have a full on 20-30 ton UGV project but I don't think it went further than prototype phase, which makes sense, why would they pursue it without an order.
 

Bmx98

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This vehicle was the most interesting thing in efes for me. Initially MKEK was using m113 to test their hybrid power pack. Now they are using this vehicle which from my analysis I can say its using Korkut chassis but with a simple welded ballistic steel hull instead of the aluminum hull like korkut (probably because it doesn't need to be amphibious like korkut). It looks like a very feasible and cheap solution to replace some of the older tracked vehicles in TSK inventory until a heavy tracked ifv is purchased.
 

Sanchez

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This vehicle was the most interesting thing in efes for me. Initially MKEK was using m113 to test their hybrid power pack. Now they are using this vehicle which from my analysis I can say its using Korkut chassis but with a simple welded ballistic steel hull instead of the aluminum hull like korkut (probably because it doesn't need to be amphibious like korkut). It looks like a very feasible and cheap solution to replace some of the older tracked vehicles in TSK inventory until a heavy tracked ifv is purchased.
I don’t think this is anything more than a frame to test the “hybrid power pack”.
 

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