Canada NEW SUBMARINES FOR CANADA

DAVEBLOGGINS

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By David Dunlop, 2 October 2025

I recently read an interesting article by Michael J. Lalonde called ‘Which Submarines Should Canada Buy?” This article offers a unique perspective from an informed, professional and Canadian author. Some of his main points are the following:

  • The first step is to assess what the government’s objectives are for the new submarine fleet and what capabilities it will need to achieve these objectives. The government has outlined objectives and provided an extensive list of what capabilities it wants.
  • After discussing the objectives and the list of desired capabilities, Lalonde then goes through the characteristics of the German/Norwegian TKMS Type 212CD submarine vs Hanwha Ocean’s KSS-II Batch 2 submarine.
  • He discusses what the two designs would mean for Canadian operations, keeping in mind the distances and unique characteristics of Canadian Arctic operations. He states that “In short, the German boat brings exceptional stealth shaping, a mature NATO sensor and combat-system ecosystem, and superb choke-point lethality. The Korean boat brings greater weapons volume through VLS, lithium-ion energy for blue-water persistence, more space and automation for crews on long legs, and a vendor-proposed delivery pace that could compress Canada’s transition off Victoria-class.”
  • Lalonde's own recommendation is, in short, “The KSS-III is the only conventional submarine that can meet all of Canada’s requirements.”
In my opinion, the author presents a clear, fair and concise opinion on both sides and I totally agree with his recommendation for Canada to acquire 12 of the South Korean-Hanwha Ocean KSS-III Batch 2 submarines. The Canadian government must make a decision on this before the end of 2025. The full article and the author’s biography can be viewed on Mr. Lalonde’s web page at:"

https://www.michaeljlalonde.com/2025/09/15/which-submarine-should-canada-buy/

 
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NEKO

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By David Dunlop, 2 October 2025

I recently read an interesting article by Michael J. Lalonde called ‘Which Submarines Should Canada Buy?” This article offers a unique perspective from an informed, professional and Canadian author. Some of his main points are the following:

  • The first step is to assess what the government’s objectives are for the new submarine fleet and what capabilities it will need to achieve these objectives. The government has outlined objectives and provided an extensive list of what capabilities it wants.
  • After discussing the objectives and the list of desired capabilities, Lalonde then goes through the characteristics of the German/Norwegian TKMS Type 212CD submarine vs Hanwha Ocean’s KSS-II Batch 2 submarine.
  • He discusses what the two designs would mean for Canadian operations, keeping in mind the distances and unique characteristics of Canadian Arctic operations. He states that “In short, the German boat brings exceptional stealth shaping, a mature NATO sensor and combat-system ecosystem, and superb choke-point lethality. The Korean boat brings greater weapons volume through VLS, lithium-ion energy for blue-water persistence, more space and automation for crews on long legs, and a vendor-proposed delivery pace that could compress Canada’s transition off Victoria-class.”
  • Lalonde's own recommendation is, in short, “The KSS-III is the only conventional submarine that can meet all of Canada’s requirements.”
In my opinion, the author presents a clear, fair and concise opinion on both sides and I totally agree with his recommendation for Canada to acquire 12 of the South Korean-Hanwha Ocean KSS-III Batch 2 submarines. The Canadian government must make a decision on this before the end of 2025. The full article and the author’s biography can be viewed on Mr. Lalonde’s web page at:"

https://www.michaeljlalonde.com/2025/09/15/which-submarine-should-canada-buy/

Why not nuclear submarines? Has Canada not considered them?
Australia is getting nuclear subs, but Canada seems uninterested. Wouldn’t nuclear submarines be a better choice, especially given Canada’s Arctic territory? Nuclear subs have the endurance to remain submerged for months and can operate effectively under sea ice, without needing to surface.

By contrast, conventional submarines — even with AIP or lithium-ion batteries — still have limited endurance. Once their electricity or AIP fuel runs out, they must snorkel or surface to recharge with diesel. In winter, with large areas of the Arctic covered by sea ice, this becomes a serious limitation.

*Edit
Oh, i see. Only limited to conventional sub.
 
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DAVEBLOGGINS

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Why not nuclear submarines? Has Canada not considered them?
Australia is getting nuclear subs, but Canada seems uninterested. Wouldn’t nuclear submarines be a better choice, especially given Canada’s Arctic territory? Nuclear subs have the endurance to remain submerged for months and can operate effectively under sea ice, without needing to surface.

By contrast, conventional submarines — even with AIP or lithium-ion batteries — still have limited endurance. Once their electricity or AIP fuel runs out, they must snorkel or surface to recharge with diesel. In winter, with large areas of the Arctic covered by sea ice, this becomes a serious limitation.

*Edit
Oh, i see. Only limited to conventional sub.
Hello NEKO. The Nuclear debate has gone on in Canada for decades and decades now. Twice before Canada tried to go nuclear and twice before we were either "shunned" by the Americans to purchase them or Canadian governments in the past were just too afraid of the costs involved. A majority of Canadians now do support Nuclear submarines for the RCN but again governments have turned that idea aside (for now anyway). Cheers!
 

NEKO

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Hello NEKO. The Nuclear debate has gone on in Canada for decades and decades now. Twice before Canada tried to go nuclear and twice before we were either "shunned" by the Americans to purchase them or Canadian governments in the past were just too afraid of the costs involved. A majority of Canadians now do support Nuclear submarines for the RCN but again governments have turned that idea aside (for now anyway). Cheers!
Oh, I see. But that was in the past, before the AUKUS submarines. Now that Australia is getting nuclear subs, maybe the opportunity is also open for Canada. The UK and US are already allowing close allies to acquire this technology, so I thought that if Australia can, then maybe Canada can too.

Currently, Australia, Canada, and the UK are already cooperating to build the Type 26 frigate together, so it might also be possible for Canada to join the AUKUS submarine program and build them as well. That way, Canada, the UK, and Australia wouldn’t just be building the same frigate, but also nuclear submarines.

Even though Canada is currently looking at conventional submarines, I wouldn’t be surprised if it eventually decides to drop the South Korean or German options and go for nuclear subs—just like how Australia dropped the Barracuda program.

By the way, if that happens, it’ll be CAUKUS
 

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By David Dunlop, 2 October 2025

I recently read an interesting article by Michael J. Lalonde called ‘Which Submarines Should Canada Buy?” This article offers a unique perspective from an informed, professional and Canadian author. Some of his main points are the following:

  • The first step is to assess what the government’s objectives are for the new submarine fleet and what capabilities it will need to achieve these objectives. The government has outlined objectives and provided an extensive list of what capabilities it wants.
  • After discussing the objectives and the list of desired capabilities, Lalonde then goes through the characteristics of the German/Norwegian TKMS Type 212CD submarine vs Hanwha Ocean’s KSS-II Batch 2 submarine.
  • He discusses what the two designs would mean for Canadian operations, keeping in mind the distances and unique characteristics of Canadian Arctic operations. He states that “In short, the German boat brings exceptional stealth shaping, a mature NATO sensor and combat-system ecosystem, and superb choke-point lethality. The Korean boat brings greater weapons volume through VLS, lithium-ion energy for blue-water persistence, more space and automation for crews on long legs, and a vendor-proposed delivery pace that could compress Canada’s transition off Victoria-class.”
  • Lalonde's own recommendation is, in short, “The KSS-III is the only conventional submarine that can meet all of Canada’s requirements.”
In my opinion, the author presents a clear, fair and concise opinion on both sides and I totally agree with his recommendation for Canada to acquire 12 of the South Korean-Hanwha Ocean KSS-III Batch 2 submarines. The Canadian government must make a decision on this before the end of 2025. The full article and the author’s biography can be viewed on Mr. Lalonde’s web page at:"

https://www.michaeljlalonde.com/2025/09/15/which-submarine-should-canada-buy/

Good post. I read that Lalonde piece too and I agree. The KSS-III just makes way more sense for Canada. We need long range, endurance and real blue-water punch, not some small Euro sub built for the Baltic. The Korean design has VLS, lithium batteries and room for long Arctic patrols. And that’s what we need if we’re serious about defending our own waters.
Time for Ottawa to stop dragging its feet and actually invest in a proper navy.
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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Oh, I see. But that was in the past, before the AUKUS submarines. Now that Australia is getting nuclear subs, maybe the opportunity is also open for Canada. The UK and US are already allowing close allies to acquire this technology, so I thought that if Australia can, then maybe Canada can too.

Currently, Australia, Canada, and the UK are already cooperating to build the Type 26 frigate together, so it might also be possible for Canada to join the AUKUS submarine program and build them as well. That way, Canada, the UK, and Australia wouldn’t just be building the same frigate, but also nuclear submarines.

Even though Canada is currently looking at conventional submarines, I wouldn’t be surprised if it eventually decides to drop the South Korean or German options and go for nuclear subs—just like how Australia dropped the Barracuda program.

By the way, if that happens, it’ll be CAUKUS
Hello again NEKO. Agree with your point of view totally! However, for many, many decades, the US has been guarding their Nuclear technology "secrets" with great "caution" and have only let 2 Countries (United Kingdom & Australia) acquire their Nuclear capabilities. It is not as if Canada does not want the technology, but we have to deal with SSK replacements for the Victoria class for now anyway. Donald Trump like past POTUS's (both Republican & Democrat) has also discouraged Canada from buying this technology! Unless WW III is upon all of us, CAUKUS will never happen in your, your children's and their children's lifetime! So Canada must decide today to go with (in my own opinion) the best SSK technology in the world today. And that would be 12 of the South Korean-Hanwha Ocean KSS-III Batch 2 submarines. Not a bad second choice. However, a Canadian "all Nuc" Fleet of 8-10 subs working in the far North & globally would be a much more preferred option by a majority of Canadians today. We could have two other options. Build our own Small Nuclear Reactors (SMR's) or Micro-Modular Reactors (MMR's) right here in Canada (we have that Canadian technology) or buy Nuclear technology from France (if they too would let us).
 
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DAVEBLOGGINS

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Good post. I read that Lalonde piece too and I agree. The KSS-III just makes way more sense for Canada. We need long range, endurance and real blue-water punch, not some small Euro sub built for the Baltic. The Korean design has VLS, lithium batteries and room for long Arctic patrols. And that’s what we need if we’re serious about defending our own waters.
Time for Ottawa to stop dragging its feet and actually invest in a proper navy.
Agree totally "Century"!!
 

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Subject: If Canada picks KSS-III for CPSP, should Canadian River-class Destroyer project consider possibility to integrate Hyunmoo-3 instead of the USA Tomahawk in River Class destroyer?

Possibly this speculation of mine could be better posted instead under the Canadian Surface Combatant (CSC) Program instead of being under the Canadian Patrol Submarine Project thread ... but I decided to post it here. I speculate the Canadian Navy is already considering/thinking of this? And speculate is the operative word here - this is a very speculative post.

One of the under-discussed advantages of the Hanwha KSS-III Batch-II offer is that its 10-cell K-VLS already fires the Chonryong SLCM — which is simply the submarine-encapsulated version of the Hyunmoo-3C land-attack cruise missile currently in service on Sejong-the-Great-class destroyers and KDX-IIs.

Key points:
- Same warhead, same turbofan, same guidance (INS+GPS+TERCOM/DSMAC), same ~1,000–1,500+ km range family.
- Only real differences are the canister and minor launch sequencing — parts commonality is ~90–95 %.
- Unit cost estimates put Hyunmoo-3/Chonryong in the ~$1.0–1.5 M USD range (indigenous mass production) vs $1.8–2.2 M USD for Tomahawk Block V/Va (export pricing).

River-class (CSC) will have 24 strike-length Mk 41 VLS cells. Integrating foreign missiles into Mk 41 has been done before — Japan did it with Type 07 VL-ASROC, Australia is doing it with JSM, and further to the Mk41 VLS, the ExLS adapter may be specifically designed for this. A Hyunmoo-3 canister adapter may be a relatively modest development program (speculate to be $100–400 M CAD total, spread over several years, possibly with heavy South Korean co-funding to sweeten the submarine deal).

Benefits of a unified Hyunmoo-3/Chonryong fleet (if KSS-III batch-2 chosen for Canada):
- Single missile type across submarines and surface combatants → massive savings in training, simulators, spares, software updates, and magazine stocks.
- No U.S. export approval drama (Tomahawk on a non-nuclear diesel-electric boat would be precedent-setting and slow).

Lower per-round cost than Tomahawk, potentially offsetting most or all of the integration bill.

Sovereign supply chain — no risk of Washington withholding missiles or updates during a crisis.

Potential Downsides:

- Hyunmoo-3 has slightly shorter maximum range than Tomahawk Block V in some configurations, and no current anti-ship variant (though ROK is working on one).
- fitting adapters in River Class Mk41 VLS for Hyunmoo-3 would reduce capacity of Mk41 VLS for other types of missiles.
- might have issues with Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) commonality with USN? (speculation by me)
- the Aegis-derived CMS 330 software likely will need to be programmed, tested, and certified to:
  1. Recognize the Hyunmoo-3 code from the canister.
  2. Execute the South Korean-specified launch sequence.
  3. Monitor and manage the power/arming sequence unique to the Hyunmoo-3.
- may go against current established Canadian naval thinking, for Canada to consider a different non-USA weapon in the River Class Mk41 VLS.

Given that Canada has never actually bought Tomahawk for CSC yet (still no DSCA notification as of Nov 2025), given the current political view to minimize USA procurement, and given the Canadian political appetite for offensive strategic weapons likely remains low, standardizing on the Korean missile family may be the cheaper, faster, lower-risk path — especially if Hanwha is willing to throw in River-class integration as part of a CPSP win.

But I hope it is something Canada considers now as I speculate (and speculate is the operative word), it may be relevant (ie cost to build adapter for River Class Mk41 VLS) to any price negotiations with South Korea if KSS-III batch-2 is chosen.
 
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DAVEBLOGGINS

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Hello oldcpu. I'm afraid it may be too late to change the Tomahawk for another cruise missile at this point. CMS 330 has already been certified for the RCD and CEC is now cast in stone as well. My question to you is-why would we want to change missiles in "mid-stream" now? I am sure Canada has already done all the ground-work for missiles in the Mk 41 VLS System even before they chose the American contractor. At this point, it would be a no-go. Cheers!
 

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Hello oldcpu. I'm afraid it may be too late to change the Tomahawk for another cruise missile at this point. CMS 330 has already been certified for the RCD and CEC is now cast in stone as well. My question to you is-why would we want to change missiles in "mid-stream" now? I am sure Canada has already done all the ground-work for missiles in the Mk 41 VLS System even before they chose the American contractor. At this point, it would be a no-go. Cheers!

Hello DAVEBLOGGINS


I donot believe USA has approved yet export license to Canada for Tomahawk cruise missile. Will there be a political price for a Tomahawk buy from USA?

Will an approval of Tomahawk, even if given now, change tomorrow , based on the side of the bed the USA POTUS gets out of in the morning ? What has the past told us about changing US policies?

From what I have read, the Tomahawk cruise missile, even if approved by USA, costs 15% to 20% more per missile than the South Korean missile. And these missiles such as Tomahawk cruise missiles are very very very expensive.

So depending on size of desired missile inventory there may be little to no price difference even after any updates to CMS and Mk41. So it may be political?

I believe it would be negligent not to consider this possibility. After consideration the conclusion could be no, stick with Tomahawk, ... but I do think, especially in todays political climate, it essential such be considered.

Obviously my thinking here is a bit out of the box so to speak.
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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It is always "prudent" to consider "other" cruise missile possibilities for the Lockheed Martin MK 41 EL silos however I am 100% sure that the RCN and GOC considered other "force" weapons when they chose the Tomahawk missile for the RCD. Not just because it was American force weapon technology, but because it was the best overall option for Canada. Cheers!
 

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