TR Propulsion Systems

[hugh]

If you have the money, TEI could produce a variable-cycle engine for you if needed. However, the Turkish engine industry simply doesn’t have the capacity to develop multiple high-performance jet engines simultaneously. For example, TEI has stated that they currently lack the resources to develop a local engine for the Hürjet.

And, there is no such thing as 4.5th gen Kaan.

You have misunderstood my post. I do not suggest that we should develop multiple large turbofan engines. My inquiry is the opposite of that. I'm simply asking if it's possible to convert(further develop) an engine like F110 to a 5th gen engine without requiring a clean-sheet design.

As limited as my engine knowledge, I think variable-cycle engine is a few leagues above TEI's current know-how.

how do you designate Block 10 KAAN when the higher-ups at TAI themselves define it as a 4.5th gen plane?

 

[Yasar_TR]

A 5th generation engine needs to be:
1. With high enough dry thrust (22K - 26K lbf) to impart supercruise capability to the plane.
2. Air inlet design to allow radar signals not to bounce back. LP Fan and compressor section to have blade design to be optimised to absorb radar signals.
3. Combustion and nozzle sections will have to be designed to be in line with compressor section, as well as being as cool as possible in general to give a lower IR signature.

The whole 5th generation engine design, at the end of the day, is a compromise and optimised to give high thrust but be cooler and radar sensitive. You can’t produce a 4th generation engine and then gradually turn it in to 5th generation. Each time an engine is produced, it has to go through intensive tests; both on the ground and in the air.

EDIT

F404 and F110(F118) have non afterburner versions that fly f117 and B2 jets. But their inlet, compressors, et al, have all been greatly optimised for stealth operations.

 

[uçuyorum]

Most important features of a 5th gen engine are probably increased fuel efficiency and the overall electricity generation compared to older designs besides the cooling.

 

[hugh]

A 5th generation engine needs to be:
1. With high enough dry thrust (22K - 26K lbf) to impart supercruise capability to the plane.
2. Air inlet design to allow radar signals not to bounce back. LP Fan and compressor section to have blade design to be optimised to absorb radar signals.
3. Combustion and nozzle sections will have to be designed to be in line with compressor section, as well as being as cool as possible in general to give a lower IR signature.

The whole 5th generation engine design, at the end of the day, is a compromise and optimised to give high thrust but be cooler and radar sensitive. You can’t produce a 4th generation engine and then gradually turn it in to 5th generation. Each time an engine is produced, it has to go through intensive tests; both on the ground and in the air.

EDIT

F404 and F110(F118) have non afterburner versions that fly f117 and B2 jets. But their inlet, compressors, et al, have all been greatly optimised for stealth operations.

so the first large turbofan we develop has to be a true 5th gen from the get-go? no viable interim engine as a stopgap?

 

[somegoodusername]

You have misunderstood my post. I do not suggest that we should develop multiple large turbofan engines. My inquiry is the opposite of that. I'm simply asking if it's possible to convert(further develop) an engine like F110 to a 5th gen engine without requiring a clean-sheet design.

F-110 is old tech, TF-35000 is new tech. There is no reason for developing a older tech engine. When you implement the modern tech on a design, you already get the TF-35000. There is no gradual increase to TF-35000, it's like going from 0 to 1.

 

[Yasar_TR]

If you want to look at it from another angle, “principally”, F110, F135, F119 are not that different from each other. Over the years F110 has evolved by using newer technologies and special alloys and materials. If F110 were “old-tech”, US wouldn’t be using it in their B2 stealth bombers, nor would they use it to propel the newest F15EX.
Turbofan Jet propulsion has evolved over the decades.
F135 was developed from f119, which was developed from the F100 engine that powered F15 and F16 aircrafts.

Today the newest F110 engine has parts that use the same technologies you would find on F119 or F135 engines.

When jet aircraft’s start flying with adaptive cycle engines, then we may have the right to call them “advanced-tech”, as they will be more groundbreaking and new as far as gas turbine engines go.

In essence the principle of turbofan jet propulsion is a form of gas turbine jet propulsion.

The real breakthrough in air breathing jet engines will come with ramjets/scramjets and also when used in conjunction with continuously rotating detonation engines (CRDE), which in itself a totally NEW tech altogether.

 

[No Name]

After reading all this, I think Turkey should seriously consider building a two-engine light fighter with the TF10000 in case it can't get its hands on new fighters or engines.

Also, wasn't the first block of KAANs meant to enter service by the end of 2028, not 2030?

 

[Saithan]

We're turning into a round Robin of sorts...

 

[Oublious]

Latest Turbofan ARAT engine news, nut much only soon againg . ExportKTJ engines, they are going the scale it up for more then 500 engines. Ther is not much information old news only the export version looks like a lot of engines.

 

[byzero]

Kale is working on turbofan engines for both missiles and UAVs. I hope they can do something with Bayraktar. At least we will have an alternative source.

 

[Anmdt]

Latest Turbofan ARAT engine news, nut much only soon againg . ExportKTJ engines, they are going the scale it up for more then 500 engines. Ther is not much information old news only the export version looks like a lot of engines.

So in the end typical defense news media of TR, no new information, pure '???!!!!' signs. Ibrahim Sunnetci and Defence Turkey is all left out to stand the ground for me, or the individual with a common sense but not these 'medias'

 

[Merzifonlu]

So in the end typical defense news media of TR, no new information, pure '???!!!!' signs.

Exactly! Anıl Şahin asks a question but the question is not answered. Despite this, Anıl Şahin asks another question as if the question has been answered properly!

Agree with your guest before the interview and only ask questions that you are guaranteed to be answered. If you still do not get an answer, repeat the question. The level of professional journalism in Turkiye has never fallen this low. For example that guy Anıl Şahin even messed up a very ordinary interview.

Question: At what stage are you in the production of the KTJ 3700 engine?
Answer: The KTJ 3700 compresses more! (Answer is irrelevant to the question)

Question: What is the status of the Turbofan engine project?
Answer The Turbofan engine is defined in our roadmap! (Answer is again irrelevant to the question)
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Another one, since he is the editor-in-chief of Habertürk, sees the right to conduct interviews as his own and he does not leave the job to the expert. However, he never does his homework and frequently interrupts his guest (Selçuk Bayraktar).
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Before 2003, the state of the media in Turkiye was also very disgraceful. But back then, those responsible for this were big capitalists who wanted to use the media as a threat and blackmail tool. But at least professional journalists were doing their job according to the rules. Now, there are not even any professional journalists left.

 

[hugh]

Exactly! Anıl Şahin asks a question but the question is not answered. Despite this, Anıl Şahin asks another question as if the question has been answered properly!

Agree with your guest before the interview and only ask questions that you are guaranteed to be answered. If you still do not get an answer, repeat the question. The level of professional journalism in Turkiye has never fallen this low. For example that guy Anıl Şahin even messed up a very ordinary interview.

Question: At what stage are you in the production of the KTJ 3700 engine?
Answer: The KTJ 3700 compresses more! (Answer is irrelevant to the question)

Question: What is the status of the Turbofan engine project?
Answer The Turbofan engine is defined in our roadmap! (Answer is again irrelevant to the question)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another one, since he is the editor-in-chief of Habertürk, sees the right to conduct interviews as his own and he does not leave the job to the expert. However, he never does his homework and frequently interrupts his guest (Selçuk Bayraktar).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before 2003, the state of the media in Turkiye was also very disgraceful. But back then, those responsible for this were big capitalists who wanted to use the media as a threat and blackmail tool. But at least professional journalists were doing their job according to the rules. Now, there are not even any professional journalists left.

Almost all defence publications in Turkey are propaganda outlets. You could never see any negative news, no whistleblowers, no critique for industrial guidance, no op-eds. What they do is to pamper the industry all day, everyday.

 

[Spitfire9]

I personally think we may try to get the WS-15 engine but the question is, would China give us that very advanced engine? Maybe if the ties with USA gets torn so badly that they may consider it.

Another option is EJ-200 would the Germans let us produce and use that engine in our Kaan?

In worst case scenario where we end up not getting any engines, Kaan may be even delayed to 2032.

EJ200 is a 20,000 lb thrust engine. No good to replace F110.

If F110 use is denied in KAAN, the only option is to wait, I think. Unless a TF35000 v1.0 with limited thrust could be used as a temporary, emergency measure? Even if 20% down on thrust it would give thrust around F110 level.

 

[Zoth]

EJ200 is a 20,000 lb thrust engine. No good to replace F110.

If F110 use is denied in KAAN, the only option is to wait, I think. Unless a TF35000 v1.0 with limited thrust could be used as a temporary, emergency measure? Even if 20% down on thrust it would give thrust around F110 level.

Waiting means delaying the first flight of Kaan to 2032 in best case scenario, and that is for test flights only, i don't think that's acceptable, they want to start flying Kaan block early 2028 due to some geopolitical reasons of our neighbors.

 

[Huelague]

So in the end typical defense news media of TR, no new information, pure '???!!!!' signs. Ibrahim Sunnetci and Defence Turkey is all left out to stand the ground for me, or the individual with a common sense but not these 'medias'

Slowly, we are reaching a level, where it is better, not to publicited to public.