TR Small Aerial Drones & Loitering Ammunitions

boredaf

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I am not even talking about Shaheds. There are many different designs used in Syria basically made from trash that work better than Kargu when it comes to their purpose: To kill people. Iranians, SAA, HTS, all they are moving forward with innovation that suits them and meet their expectations.

For example currently there is a high in the usage of FPV drones against opposition targets with great success. Unfortunately it is the forces we support that are giving casualties to drones and these same drones will be used against TSK positions very soon as well. They are from a Russian origin and are mass produced for cheap.

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Nobody should get me wrong. Kargu looks good enough in terms of a platform (the quadrocopter itself), its specs and software may be very good, but the results we see, concerning lethality are nowhere near satisfying for a drone of this price and specs. In the end of all our discussions we concluded that most probably the factor which is limiting Kargu's lethal outcomes is the warhead. Well, there are other warhead options which we don't see being delivered and used as this configuration below. We have a drone which is capable to operate without GPS, autonomously, uses AI, can operate in a swarm. What we see is a single drone used somewhere in Syria against a terrorist, blowing itself to pieces, all the AI, software, cutting edge technology gone without even wounding him. We are talking about tens of thousands of dollars here. I don't accept this.

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I also find it wrong to use such a thing against a threat like we see in Syria. Drones that are used in this role must be simple enough to mass produce, mass deploy, simple cheap drones. Their package also must be light and compact enough for a soldier to carry around. I am not talking about Ukraine grade simple/cheap, I am talking about simple, cheap, safe and refined drone that is plain enough to use without fear of bankruptcy in scenarios that we face in Syria for example.

Upgrade the warhead on Kargu, deliver it in swarms to relevant units and leave them on stand by for different cases where we face EW threats, need the sophisticated software, swarm capability and call it a day.

What I am thinking about for the budget drone is a simplified, low cost version of Rafael's Spike Firefly. It is low in weight, compact and one man deployable in a practical way. It can be carried within a platoon without a problem compared to the giant carrying package of Kargu which is an absolute nightmare.

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Pair it with a little bigger battery than that of the Firefly, a cheap EO made by Aselsan, slightly enlarged version of the explosive part of the MKE Ozok hand grenade and that's it. Also important: Don't make it with a directed charge! I suspect that the low lethality of Kargu may be due to the enemy seeing the drone and running (instinctively) to the side where the warhead is not effective.

If the 40mm simple VOG-25 which doesn't have either proximity fuses, directed charges or anything else is enough to obliterate almost everything it falls close to, then I think a modified version of Ozok will be enough to obliterate infantry and even lightly armored vehicles easily.

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Maybe I'm old, or maybe because of where I was during my time, but if a soldier is having a hard time carrying a drone that weighs less than 10kgs, there is a problem with fitness in the army. Although, I'll admit no idea how much the case itself weighs, so let's call it 15, but my point is, a soldier should be able to carry that as long as necessary, along with their usual load, since they won't give it to the machine gunner or marksman or poor sob who is carrying the rocket or grenade launcher.

And again, you're comparing apples to oranges mate, or rather, comparing Kargu to what it isn't. Grenades have a certain radius that'll kill everyone outright simply because of the blast pressure, outside of that, it's up to the shrapnel to finish to job, or not. A simple 40 mm exploding on the ground next to the target will kill anyone within, damn I can't remember the exact numbers, let's say 5 or 10 meters. Kargu will most likely not have that, or, that radius will be smaller and as you said probably directional, since it has a proximity fuse/sensor.

A modified rpg round, or a mortar round, or a grenade dropped on top of someone or something could have a greater impact I don't disagree with that. I also agree with you that a cheaper alternative to use against terrorists makes a lot of sense, like the one you described. But I still don't believe it is as useless or terrible as you seem to believe, we disagree on that.

Btw, the configuration you showed is actually an RF seeker as far as I know, not an rpg or anything else and I don't know if it has passed beyond testing phase yet, or any of the other warheads.
 

Kartal1

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Maybe I'm old, or maybe because of where I was during my time, but if a soldier is having a hard time carrying a drone that weighs less than 10kgs, there is a problem with fitness in the army. Although, I'll admit no idea how much the case itself weighs, so let's call it 15, but my point is, a soldier should be able to carry that as long as necessary, along with their usual load, since they won't give it to the machine gunner or marksman or poor sob who is carrying the rocket or grenade launcher.

And again, you're comparing apples to oranges mate, or rather, comparing Kargu to what it isn't. Grenades have a certain radius that'll kill everyone outright simply because of the blast pressure, outside of that, it's up to the shrapnel to finish to job, or not. A simple 40 mm exploding on the ground next to the target will kill anyone within, damn I can't remember the exact numbers, let's say 5 or 10 meters. Kargu will most likely not have that, or, that radius will be smaller and as you said probably directional, since it has a proximity fuse/sensor.

A modified rpg round, or a mortar round, or a grenade dropped on top of someone or something could have a greater impact I don't disagree with that. I also agree with you that a cheaper alternative to use against terrorists makes a lot of sense, like the one you described. But I still don't believe it is as useless or terrible as you seem to believe, we disagree on that.

Btw, the configuration you showed is actually an RF seeker as far as I know, not an rpg or anything else and I don't know if it has passed beyond testing phase yet, or any of the other warheads.
The problem with the mobility is not the weight, but how large it is (the whole kit). You have the main backpack and another backpack for the controller tied to the main one. The kit is so large that it would create extreme discomfort while carrying it around (not counting the silhouette). Soldiers are already experiencing difficulties while trespassing trough forests, bushes even without the large backpack (sticks, branches like to tangle in ties, straps, MOLLE). A narrower design of the backpack or even better, a hard container mountable on MOLLE as in the Spike Firefly is a far better and comfortable option for carriage.

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You probably got me wrong on the warhead of my "cheap drone" dream design. It will not drop the grenade directly, but it will serve in the same way as FPV loitering munition. I am using the Ozok hand grenade as a reference to the design of the warhead that I think could be implemented. Just enlarge it a bit, take out the timed detonator and make it explode on command. Also what I meant by giving the example of the 40mm VOG is that even a small munition (warhead) can inflict heavy damage let alone an enlarged Ozok. By observing combat footages from Ukraine, I concluded that the VOGs are maybe the most effective and also cheap munitions that can be carried by drones so just imagine the damage done by the modified, bigger Ozok that also sends shrapnel at 360o not leaving a chance to run in any direction or hide.

If you ask me why I didn't gave an example with an RPG round, the answer would be that in my vision for the drone it may require higher performance of the platform which will increase weight and my idea is a simple light and cheap drone that still packs great enough damage against infantry and light armor, some endurance and can also be used for recon tasks (20-25 minutes fly time, 2-3km communication range). The design of the modified Ozok in my mind would be a bit fattier in shape than the standard OG-7V round, packs weaker punch (a bit less fragments and explosive), but still comparable. Still, not a bad punch for that kind of drone.

Also, regarding the configuration of Kargu that I posted. As far as I see this is a warhead influenced by a 60mm mortar round and the RF seeker is most probably the part that I encircled in red together with an E/O. Most probably we are talking about a module as Kargu is made in such a way that you can swap warhead and E/O payloads in seconds. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

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what

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Also on Bayraktar Website I found no Information regarding Y-III UAV

Probably on purpose. They've been found in Ukraine, good chances these are produced for or even in Ukraine in cooperation with Bayraktar.
 

Kartal1

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Again unsuccessful strike, again guess what...

I think it's time to open a new thread dedicated to Kargu's... AI 😅 😅 😅

Manbij, Yalinli.

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Sanchez

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Again unsuccessful strike, again guess what...

I think it's time to open a new thread dedicated to Kargu's... AI 😅 😅 😅

Manbij, Yalinli.

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I have a question on this. How does Kargu's warhead work? I always imagined it being like Claymore mine, where majority of the blast is pointed forward. How do we know this was a failed strike?
 

boredaf

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I have a question on this. How does Kargu's warhead work? I always imagined it being like Claymore mine, where majority of the blast is pointed forward. How do we know this was a failed strike?
It is a claymore, you can compare the warhead to MKE's claymore and it is almost exactly the same weight with same number of shrapnels. And I guess they call it a failure because the drone itself isn't destroyed, without any real proof of whether its targets were killed or wounded (which is for some reason also generally overlooked when it comes to whether a strike is successful or not).
 

Kartal1

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I have a question on this. How does Kargu's warhead work? I always imagined it being like Claymore mine, where majority of the blast is pointed forward. How do we know this was a failed strike?
According to the presentations of STM it is working like a claimore indeed.

As I pointed out earlier the field of operations is transparent enough for us to know if there were fatalities or wounded. I also like to quote sources that have both access to exclusive information by local forces in Syria and also sources from within TSK. Every kamikaze/FPV strike in Syria is documented, aftermath is known and 90% of the time access to visual evidence is present.
 

Kartal1

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It is a claymore, you can compare the warhead to MKE's claymore and it is almost exactly the same weight with same number of shrapnels. And I guess they call it a failure because the drone itself isn't destroyed, without any real proof of whether its targets were killed or wounded (which is for some reason also generally overlooked when it comes to whether a strike is successful or not).
Come on, bro! The whole Syria is an open page for the one that wants to read it.

All of the prominent analyzers spending 24/7 on keeping an eye of the developmenta are calling it a failure because of lack on effect on target and not because the remainings are there (it is a directional charge).
 

Bogeyman 

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The new kamikaze drone AZAT is preparing for the mission:
• AZAT FPV kamikaze drone, developed by Robit Teknoloji and allowing the pilot to feel or see the drone in front of his eyes, was showcased at DIMDEX 2024 in Qatar
• AZAT, which weighs approximately 2 kilograms, operates with a payload capacity of 800 grams.
• AZAT, which stays in the air for 20 minutes, can be controlled at a range of 2.5 kilometers, transmit images and neutralize its target.

Giving information about the FPV kamikaze drone AZAT, İbrahim Yiğit Özboyacı stated that the 5, 7 and 9 inch models of AZAT are ready for production.

Explaining that AZAT can be used both for neutralizing the target and for reconnaissance-surveillance purposes, Özboyacı said:

"We have produced two different models that allow the use of various ammunition. It is an FPV drone with a control range of 2.5 kilometers and an approximate flight time of 20 minutes. Changes in the battlefield have made FPV drone models more usable in the international arena. Therefore, when we take into account the usage conditions in the field "It is possible to say that AZAT stands out. We have introduced a product that has the capacity to meet the needs in the field."

Stating that they have completed the test work on AZAT, Özboyacı stated that they aim to carry out flights with ammunition in the near future. Özboyacı stated that as a result of these studies, they aim to introduce AZAT to users as soon as possible.

 

boredaf

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Come on, bro! The whole Syria is an open page for the one that wants to read it.

All of the prominent analyzers spending 24/7 on keeping an eye of the developmenta are calling it a failure because of lack on effect on target and not because the remainings are there (it is a directional charge).
Until I see someone actually show me a video that shows a minute before and few minutes after the strike, I am having a hard time believing something so useless can sell so much, we don't have the political balls to strongarm a dozen countries. I've seen people take 5.56 bullets and keep on running before dropping dead minutes later, survive grenade blasts just to die from shrapnel wounds later on. All I keep seeing from you and others that say this is useless as proof is remains of Kargu, not the actual aftermath footage or reports. Now, you might have access to sources I don't and they might actually see stuff you can't reveal here, I respect that. But I'm a very simple man and until I see actual proof with my own eyes, I'll remain sceptical on the issue.

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The new kamikaze drone AZAT is preparing for the mission:
• AZAT FPV kamikaze drone, developed by Robit Teknoloji and allowing the pilot to feel or see the drone in front of his eyes, was showcased at DIMDEX 2024 in Qatar
• AZAT, which weighs approximately 2 kilograms, operates with a payload capacity of 800 grams.
• AZAT, which stays in the air for 20 minutes, can be controlled at a range of 2.5 kilometers, transmit images and neutralize its target.

Giving information about the FPV kamikaze drone AZAT, İbrahim Yiğit Özboyacı stated that the 5, 7 and 9 inch models of AZAT are ready for production.

Explaining that AZAT can be used both for neutralizing the target and for reconnaissance-surveillance purposes, Özboyacı said:

"We have produced two different models that allow the use of various ammunition. It is an FPV drone with a control range of 2.5 kilometers and an approximate flight time of 20 minutes. Changes in the battlefield have made FPV drone models more usable in the international arena. Therefore, when we take into account the usage conditions in the field "It is possible to say that AZAT stands out. We have introduced a product that has the capacity to meet the needs in the field."

Stating that they have completed the test work on AZAT, Özboyacı stated that they aim to carry out flights with ammunition in the near future. Özboyacı stated that as a result of these studies, they aim to introduce AZAT to users as soon as possible.

Is it just me or does that look like they slapped a block of C4 on top of a drone 😁 I wonder if any of our companies are working on a coaxial two rotor drone that can drop a grenade or mortar round, they are much more agile than these.
 

Kartal1

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GH0tz3-W8AAgTBk

GH0tz3-W8AEicV4

GH0tz4CWIAAQjzO

GH0tz4CWIAEUH81


The new kamikaze drone AZAT is preparing for the mission:
• AZAT FPV kamikaze drone, developed by Robit Teknoloji and allowing the pilot to feel or see the drone in front of his eyes, was showcased at DIMDEX 2024 in Qatar
• AZAT, which weighs approximately 2 kilograms, operates with a payload capacity of 800 grams.
• AZAT, which stays in the air for 20 minutes, can be controlled at a range of 2.5 kilometers, transmit images and neutralize its target.

Giving information about the FPV kamikaze drone AZAT, İbrahim Yiğit Özboyacı stated that the 5, 7 and 9 inch models of AZAT are ready for production.

Explaining that AZAT can be used both for neutralizing the target and for reconnaissance-surveillance purposes, Özboyacı said:

"We have produced two different models that allow the use of various ammunition. It is an FPV drone with a control range of 2.5 kilometers and an approximate flight time of 20 minutes. Changes in the battlefield have made FPV drone models more usable in the international arena. Therefore, when we take into account the usage conditions in the field "It is possible to say that AZAT stands out. We have introduced a product that has the capacity to meet the needs in the field."

Stating that they have completed the test work on AZAT, Özboyacı stated that they aim to carry out flights with ammunition in the near future. Özboyacı stated that as a result of these studies, they aim to introduce AZAT to users as soon as possible.

This looks like a super budget option, easy to manufacture so you can pump thousands from it no problem. I would like to see something just a tiny bit more refined. While we still don't know all of the specs of the drone I would like to see retractable rotors, fast battery swap design and a MOLLE compatible secure, hard container. Other than that it is light, simple, small enough to carry and deploy literally by tek-er (single man). So far looking at the specs it is answering all of my requirements for the super cheap tek-er deployable recon/loitering munition drone.

By the way as @boredaf asked I also would like to ask. Are there any coaxial designs in development?


I am thinking of my design something like the one below.

God, forgive me for I have sinned:

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@Boz @Kaan Azman

PS: Someone, please perma-ban me the next time I touch paint.
 

Kaan Azman 

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If I remember right there aren't any coaxial design stuff but Pavo Group and ASELSAN have folding tubular vertically flying protoytpes. ASELSAN VİHA my beloved of course.
 

Kartal1

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If I remember right there aren't any coaxial design stuff but Pavo Group and ASELSAN have folding tubular vertically flying protoytpes. ASELSAN VİHA my beloved of course.
Is Aselsan's VIHA a jointly developed project with Pavo Group? If not I think I never saw the products of Pavo Group. If you have some public material I would love to see it.

I think you mentioned Aselsan's VIHA before in a similar discussion. It really looks good.

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