TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[B_A]

In July the GCAP partner governments agreed to try to make a contract with Edgewing by the end of 2025. There has been no announcement of this. Could be the partners cannot reach agreement and never will. Could be the partners cannot reach agreement yet. Could be the partner countries are in agreement but have yet to finalise a contract with Edgewing.

PS This is the KAAN thread so, no offence intended, I won't discuss GCAP more here except where it relates to KAAN.

The 5th gen version of Korean KAI KF-21 Boramae will far successful than Japan-UK one and become the a KAAN competitor

 

[Spitfire9]

The 5th gen version of Korean KAI KF-21 Boramae will far successful than Japan-UK one and become the a KAAN competitor

Different aircraft. GCAP is a 6G project. It is expected to be a large fighter with extremely long range. It will be much more expensive than KF-21. Yes, I expect KF-21 to sell in much larger numbers than GCAP.

 

[B_A]

Different aircraft. GCAP is a 6G project. It is expected to be a large fighter with extremely long range. It will be much more expensive than KF-21. Yes, I expect KF-21 to sell in much larger numbers than GCAP.

I knew they were different aircraft.

I meant that I didnt think GCAP would be a success.

You can see how many plans the Japanese promoted without many success since 2010s,like
Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin or IHI Corporation XF9,First launch a massive publicity campaign for super weapon or super engine, then remain silent.

Unlike the Japanese, the Koreans quietly carried out their work, achieving victory after victory with the K2, K9, and KF21, much like Samsung and LG defeated Sony and Panasonic.
I don't know why the Japanese have become like this; now they're boasting about beating TSMC in the chip industry with 1/100 of the money.

 

[Spitfire9]

I knew they were different aircraft.

I meant that I didnt think GCAP would be success.

You can see how many plans the Japanese promoted without many success since 2010s,like
Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin or IHI Corporation XF9,First launch a massive publicity campaign for super weapon or super engine, then remain silent.

Unlike the Japanese, the Koreans quietly carried out their work, achieving victory after victory with the K2, K9, and KF21, much like Samsung and LG defeated Sony and Panasonic.
I don't know why the Japanese have become like this; now they're boasting about beating TSMC in the chip industry with 1/100 of the money.

From what I have recently read, GIGO (3 government GCAP organisation) is in advanced negotiations with Edgewing (3 country GCAP development and production company) to finalise a development contract. I assume a development contract will be announced this year. I am not sure how many the partner countries will take in total but I expect the number to be 350-400 with fewer ordered initially. Possible future customers: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Australia, Canada plus Germany if FCAS fails to launch, India if AMCA never gets going. Would you see total sales of 500+ GCAP over the next few decades as success?

I think that KAAN and KF-21 will sell widely when they can be offered with non-US engines.

 

[B_A]

From what I have recently read, GIGO (3 government GCAP organisation) is in advanced negotiations with Edgewing (3 country GCAP development and production company) to finalise a development contract. I assume a development contract will be announced this year. I am not sure how many the partner countries will take in total but I expect the number to be 350-400 with fewer ordered initially. Possible future customers: Saudi Arabia, UAE, Australia, Canada plus Germany if FCAS fails to launch, India if AMCA never gets going. Would you see total sales of 500+ GCAP over the next few decades as success?

I think that KAAN and KF-21 will sell widely when they can be offered with non-US engines.

I hope they would succeed (I have a very deep relationship with Japan and UK), and i see even 200-300 GCAP over the next few decades as a great success.

But the problem isnt the market. But it is the fact that Japan and Europe have performed poorly in many defense projects in recent years. Mitsubishi Space Jet and C2/P1, technical problems have been constantly arising.

If they successfully develop GCAP, the market is not a problem. Only Japan, UK and Italy will require no less than 400-500 units. (at least 300-400 for Japanese airforce alone)

 

[Brokengineer]

Bro, that is on paper and in advertising propaganda information.
1. If it takes off vertically, its operational range is shortened so much that the whole process becomes almost futile. Increased mechanical complexity, reduced internal payload/fuel capacity, less range/endurance and higher fuel consumption during vertical manoeuvres, making it heavier and less capable in weight-limited scenarios.
It already has a disadvantage as it has to carry excess fuel to allow it to land vertically on carriers. To add another disadvantage is not very clever.

2. Operating from non-conformal positions (out in the wilderness or ”dispersed” as you say) will mean a lot of support equipment will have to be present in take off and landing sites. This causes logistical nightmares.
Your airforce land crews will have to be trained accordingly.
To a small and spread apart individual or a few units, you will have to provide the same number of equipment and ground crew that you would for a squadron or two in base.

Jack of all trades, Master of none.

 

[hugh]

KAAN's P1 prototype first flight has been revised to May or June this year. P2 first flight by the end of the year and P3 is either end of this year or the beginning of next year. Prototypes are going through ground tests for 2-3 months before first flights.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2014677411917340687

 

[Khagan1923]

KAAN's P1 prototype first flight has been revised to May or June this year. P2 first flight by the end of the year and P3 is either end of this year or the beginning of next year. Prototypes are going through ground tests for 2-3 months before first flights.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2014677411917340687

Maybe we were too harsh to Baklava man.

Demiroglu has been a complete disaster in this. This is the third or fourth time he gives a new date for the P1 and P2.

Look at this "Uçma tarihlerinden bahsediyorum yoksa prototipleri daha önce görünür hale getireceğiz."

The protoypes aren't even ready to be shown off meaning they haven't even completed assembly, yet we were told summer last year both were already in final assembly, lmao.

When I pointed this out some here were getting butthurt and throwing statements of officials as rebuttal in the fight.

Proven correct, again.

 

[Khagan1923]

Oh also you can forget 2028 for first deliveries.

They won't deliver anything before 2030 and that is if everything goes optimal.

KF21 underwent 4 years of flight test after all their prototypes had been produced.

So more likely 2031-2032 for first deliveries.

 

[uçuyorum]

Maybe we were too harsh to Baklava man.

Demiroglu has been a complete disaster in this. This is the third or fourth time he gives a new date for the P1 and P2.

Look at this "Uçma tarihlerinden bahsediyorum yoksa prototipleri daha önce görünür hale getireceğiz."

The protoypes aren't even ready to be shown off meaning they haven't even completed assembly, yet we were told summer last year both were already in final assembly, lmao.

When I pointed this out some here were getting butthurt and throwing statements of officials as rebuttal in the fight.

Proven correct, again.

Im quite happy, delay by couple months is ok

 

[Zafer]

Making a fighter jet plane is not childs' play, it is very welcome to only have delayed the first flight by a couple of months, people should get used to it and stop moaning.

 

[Fairon]

Maybe we were too harsh to Baklava man.

Demiroglu has been a complete disaster in this. This is the third or fourth time he gives a new date for the P1 and P2.

Look at this "Uçma tarihlerinden bahsediyorum yoksa prototipleri daha önce görünür hale getireceğiz."

The protoypes aren't even ready to be shown off meaning they haven't even completed assembly, yet we were told summer last year both were already in final assembly, lmao.

When I pointed this out some here were getting butthurt and throwing statements of officials as rebuttal in the fight.

Proven correct, again.

Maybe, but on the other hand, during the baklava man era, TUSAŞ employees couldn’t see their families for long periods of time probably due to the pressure of meeting his deadlines.(to be fair, this choice always reflected as voluntariliy, not forced)

Yes we need KAAN as soon as possible and it is one of the top most important project for us but we also need to prevent burning out these nameless heroes.

Maybe this is the sweetspot. Yes there maybe delays or longer deadlines than previous era but this is a much healthy work enviorement than before as well.

(This is just my guess, by the way. I don’t actually know the working conditions at TUSAŞ, past or present. I’m just picking this up from the press statements, speeches etc)

 

[Fuzuli NL]

All the hard work and sacrifices made by TAI's amazing teams and management, all the ground-breaking achievements in multiple fronts (Jets, propellers, UAVs, Space, Engines), the sheer pressure of simultaneously run projects and deliveries, all the maiden flights they realised in record times, add to that being relatively new in the game and up against behemoths in the field, yet securing multiple export contracts including the recent Hürjet one with Spain...

All this is nothing for some "experts" here, who are moaning about delivery date delays and that the previous estimations are a little off!
Disrespectful and laughably pathetic!

 

[boredaf]

Maybe, but on the other hand, during the baklava man era, TUSAŞ employees couldn’t see their families for long periods of time probably due to the pressure of meeting his deadlines.(to be fair, this choice always reflected as voluntariliy, not forced)

Yes we need KAAN as soon as possible and it is one of the top most important project for us but we also need to prevent burning out these nameless heroes.

Maybe this is the sweetspot. Yes there maybe delays or longer deadlines than previous era but this is a much healthy work enviorement than before as well.

(This is just my guess, by the way. I don’t actually know the working conditions at TUSAŞ, past or present. I’m just picking this up from the press statements, speeches etc)

Couldn't agree more, and, I would much rather people in charge of these project keep their feet firmly on the ground and give realistic dates, instead of constantly repeating dates that serve no purpose other than propaganda.

Another date also given in that interview is 2032 for TF35K for it to be installed on Kaan, and the statement doesn't mention deliveries or anything, just integration to Kaan. That is far more realistic than the previously mentioned dates as well. I wonder if some people will eat some humble pie about the shite they talked over and over again now.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Postponing previously given first flight dates without explanation is totally unprofessional.

Remember Mahmut Aksit, when TF6000 was delayed by 6 months he came clean and stated that a simple part that was available normally, was made unavailable. So they had to produce it in house, causing the delay.

Mr Demiroglu initially had given a First flight date of last quarter of 2025. Then he postponed it to beginning of April 2026, without any reasons. That was 3 months to 6 months delay at best and at worst over the previously given date. Now another couple of months delay! No explanation again. This is becoming the norm and a joke!

In production delays may occur. In development work they may be even more frequent. But there is always an explainable reason. For a program like KAAN, that is being followed by everyone in close scrutiny, to just postpone is wrong.

We have a saying in Turkish ; (Gelen gldeni arattırır) . I guess the closest translation is “the better the devil you know”.
Kotil was at least “closer” to being a man of his word.

 

[AlperTunga]

Maybe, but on the other hand, during the baklava man era, TUSAŞ employees couldn’t see their families for long periods of time probably due to the pressure of meeting his deadlines.(to be fair, this choice always reflected as voluntariliy, not forced)

Yes we need KAAN as soon as possible and it is one of the top most important project for us but we also need to prevent burning out these nameless heroes.

Maybe this is the sweetspot. Yes there maybe delays or longer deadlines than previous era but this is a much healthy work enviorement than before as well.

(This is just my guess, by the way. I don’t actually know the working conditions at TUSAŞ, past or present. I’m just picking this up from the press statements, speeches etc)

Believe me if you reward those nameless heroes appropriately, they‘d be more than happy to do this for a few years.

 

[Sanchez]

Kotil was at least “closer” to being a man of his word

Not at all, his timelines moved like lines in the sand all the time.

There is a delay, there will be many more delays. We should accept that there will be delays and also demand explanation for the delays. It is billions of our taxpayer money and the most important and hardest undertaking of this country since 1922.

 

[Fairon]

Postponing previously given first flight dates without explanation is totally unprofessional.

Remember Mahmut Aksit, when TF6000 was delayed by 6 months he came clean and stated that a simple part that was available normally, was made unavailable. So they had to produce it in house, causing the delay.

Mr Demiroglu initially had given a First flight date of last quarter of 2025. Then he postponed it to beginning of April 2026, without any reasons. That was 3 months to 6 months delay at best and at worst over the previously given date. Now another couple of months delay! No explanation again. This is becoming the norm and a joke!

In production delays may occur. In development work they may be even more frequent. But there is always an explainable reason. For a program like KAAN, that is being followed by everyone in close scrutiny, to just postpone is wrong.

We have a saying in Turkish ; (Gelen gldeni arattırır) . I guess the closest translation is “the better the devil you know”.
Kotil was at least “closer” to being a man of his word.

Sadly, Mahmut Aksit is alone in this regard.

I don't remember any other company as open as TEI regarding the problems during the processes. We only pick something might going wrong when there is concurrent delays or some abnormality during the development progress.(And usually had to pick up from parts of the statements or the published tests videos for the tests that should've been done years ago)

 

[Yasar_TR]

Not at all, his timelines moved like lines in the sand all the time.

There is a delay, there will be many more delays. We should accept that there will be delays and also demand explanation for the delays. It is billions of our taxpayer money and the most important and hardest undertaking of this country since 1922.

That is why I said “closer”.
During Kotil’s tenure there were delays too. But he did give reasons. His deadlines were too ambitious and aggressive. But during his time:

• KAAN (TF-X): Maiden flight on February 21, 2024.
• Hürjet: First flight on April 25, 2023.
• Anka-3 UCAV: First flight on December 28, 2023.
• T929 Atak 2: First flight on April 28, 2023.

were accomplished . During he was in charge, we were subject to more stringent and widespread hidden embargoes too.

 

[boredaf]

T929 Atak 2: First flight on April 28, 2023.

Mate, please don't count that abomination among the others. That was perhaps the single most blatant propagandization of defence industry I have ever seen. It was clearly not even close to being a ground test unit when it made that flight. And then he promised it would be delivered to army last year, instead of letting it slide into obscurity. He was living in a fantasy world of his own, if he had stayed, none of his deadlines could have ever been made in real world.