Historical The Partition, 1947

Afif

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Why do I find this constant harping on the idea of 'partition in general'? There was no general agreement. One side forced its stand on the colonial rulers and the other side; the other side, the Congress, gave in because they had found the League impossible partners when the two parties formed a coalition government in the UP.

Instead of this correct understanding of what happened, and was copiously recorded, we encounter this constant refrain of some sort of general agreement on an idea of partition, implying that one side got a Muslim state, the other got a Hindu state. This is factually incorrect, and is a lie spread by the Sangh Parivar.

However, in the end 1945 general election and 1946 provincial election made it clear what people wanted. Majority of muslims clearly saw partition necessary to 'secure' their future. Is there any other explanation to account for this massive shift that occurEd in 1946 election from 1937 election? If so, I am keen to hear it.
 

Joe Shearer

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However, in the end 1945 general election and 1946 provincial election made it clear what people wanted. Majority of muslims clearly saw partition necessary to 'secure' their future. Is there any other explanation to account for this massive shift that occurEd in 1946 election from 1937 election? If so, I am keen to hear it.
Yes.
Coming soon, to a theatre near you. Seriously, I was swamped by house-work today. Sorry for the delays in replying.
 

KamBhakth

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Sorry for going off-topic, Re - two nations theory in 1947. Three State (with United Bengal) solution would have been the correct choice in my opinion, in line with AK Fazlul Haque's vision. Too bad it didn't come to fruition then. Had it been the case, perhaps there would have been no bloodshed in Bengal in 1947 and 1971.

I think we should have a thread on this dada. It will be an intersting discussion.

PS: this is LeonBlack08 from PDF

You can either argue for the 2 nation theory (muslims and hindus cannot live together) or argue for a united bengal (muslims and hindus live together). You cannot argue for both.
 

Joe Shearer

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You can either argue for the 2 nation theory (muslims and hindus cannot live together) or argue for a united bengal (muslims and hindus live together). You cannot argue for both.
I agree, but I feel that if we argue the case out, a lot of clarity emerges.

This has been done brilliantly in the now limping PakTeaHouse, where YLH acted as a pole at which we - a mixed Indian and Pakistani crowd - directed our assaults. It involved Hayyar Sahib, Bloody Civilian, SoulSpokesman (the only one to hang on to his nick thereafter, and even into PDF), Gorky, Vajra and several others.

We came to certain conclusions, and to our wonderment, six months later, Jaswant Singh came out with his book with almost a carbon copy of our conclusions (no underhand work is implied, it is just that our 'seminar' so accurately mirrored his several years' worth of research).

It has been done again on PDF, long ago, with somewhat less decisive results. PDF never liked YLH, and his encyclopaedic knowledge of Jinnah's life, on almost a day to day basis, was vital for such a discussion (he was upholding Jinnah, as were most other Pakistanis, except Kaptaan, who had a brilliant different thesis), and then on Honest Deliberations, and frequently, but with shifting conclusions, on insaniyat.

These are not public fora, so regrettably, those discussions cannot be presented here. Why regrettably? Actually, that is a good thing, in that nobody now discussing it needs to be influenced by those earlier ones.
 

Marlii

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Well when we reach 2047 its gonna give a moment for all respective countries to look back and ask if they made the good decisions in the past 100 years.
 

Afif

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Well when we reach 2047 its gonna give a moment for all respective countries to look back and ask if they made the good decisions in the past 100 years.
or, and more likely

things will be much worse then

a few more people will get nuked I'm guessing.
 

Joe Shearer

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Well when we reach 2047 its gonna give a moment for all respective countries to look back and ask if they made the good decisions in the past 100 years.
That is already clear, sadly speaking.

One suggestion I have for the group in general is to invite SoulSpokesman into the discussion, if he is agreeable.

Although he is a right-wing supporter of Modi, he has a firm grip on this particular subject (among many others) and might be a very useful contributor to the discussions.
 

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or, and more likely

things will be much worse then

a few more people will get nuked I'm guessing.
I hope not, but in the GDP per capita stakes, it will be Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. That is, judging by present trends.
 

Afif

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I hope not, but in the GDP per capita stakes, it will be Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. That is, judging by present trends.

Sir, this year GDP per capita has come down exactly on per with India according to IMF data. So, I am not very sure about that.
 

Marlii

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I hope not, but in the GDP per capita stakes, it will be Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. That is, judging by present trends.
Even in the most pessimistic case both India and Bangladesh will most likely fall is a middle income trap but for Pakistan if the present trend goes they would get the low income trap with a massive population.
 

Joe Shearer

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Sir, this year GDP per capita has come down exactly on per with India according to IMF data. So, I am not very sure about that.
So you are bearish, and expect it to come down further?
 

Afif

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So you are bearish, and expect it to come down further?

Well....maybe not by a large margin, but very much possible. Right now at this junctures BD needs some serious economic policy reforms. As you probably know, like India, BD indtroduced some critical economic reforms in 1990s and in early 2000s. So far economy was bearing fruit of that. But now we are stuck again. If new policy reforms cannot be done immediately, we may fall behind India in the long run.
 

Marlii

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Well....maybe not by a large margin, but very much possible. Right now at this junctures BD needs some serious economic policy reforms. As you probably know, like India, BD indtroduced some critical economic reforms in 1990s and in early 2000s. So far economy was bearing fruit of that. But now we are stuck again. If new policy reforms cannot be done immediately, we may fall behind India in the long run.
BD sadly according to me is not pushing hard in the infrastructure department. All 3 countries inherited a railway that sadly isnt being utilised to its fullest. BD was planning a bullet train for a track lenght of less than 250KM i believe which is not optimal when in reality for a small country like BD getting all the existing tracks to semi high speed of 200KM per hour would be a revolutionary game changer.
 

Joe Shearer

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Well....maybe not by a large margin, but very much possible. Right now at this junctures BD needs some serious economic policy reforms. As you probably know, like India, BD indtroduced some critical economic reforms in 1990s and in early 2000s. So far economy was bearing fruit of that. But now we are stuck again. If new policy reforms cannot be done immediately, we may fall behind India in the long run.
Yes, Bangladesh is ready for a second impulse. Some economic steps have to be taken. What they are, I don't know, not being an economist, but I believe some degree of engineering capability should come in. Or a natural outlet, like boat-building, should be taken up.
 

Joe Shearer

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BD sadly according to me is not pushing hard in the infrastructure department. All 3 countries inherited a railway that sadly isnt being utilised to its fullest. BD was planning a bullet train for a track lenght of less than 250KM i believe which is not optimal when in reality for a small country like BD getting all the existing tracks to semi high speed of 200KM per hour would be a revolutionary game changer.
Completely agree. You should write about Indian Railways as well. So much potential, yet untapped.
 

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I hope not, but in the GDP per capita stakes, it will be Bangladesh, India and Pakistan. That is, judging by present trends.

It is an aside to get into (so maybe best suited elsewhere)....but I will leave this here for a large country ahead of subcontinent in GDP, to just what can get overcounted/conflated etc (by purpose or accident):


If there is a steady rubric to apply say Arvind Subramanian "actual correlation" methodology (that was summarily squelched by BJP et al. along with their approach to Raghuram Rajan.... similar to how the CCP did so for Li Keqiang's methodology and also their approach to Wen Jiabao's reform faction etc) on south asia as whole (and developing world more broadly), we would likely see better means to compare consistently and credibly. This is part of reason BD does worse on number of issues than its GDP per capita would otherwise suggest. BAL like any autocrat political party is up to some shenanigans there.

In any case its really too early to really allocate a ton of discussion time IMO as long as countries are in the sub 10,000 (nominal USD per capita) ball park as there are incredible numbers of people not seeing the fruits of the prosperity in meaningful ways (though when its above 2 or 3k it at least it has gotten them out of abject extreme poverty, thats true at least).

i.e there are better conversations to be had when it comes to economy and econometrics for these countries so they actually have a proven large credible GDP of consequence downroad.
 
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Afif

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BAL like any autocrat political party is up to some shenanigans there.

And despite knowing this India has its full support behind BAL. Instead of respecting the BD's peoples choice and working with the democratic government, India's firm stance as regional power behind the entity that stripped the peoples of Bangladesh of their most fundamental right of free and fair election has created a huge problem. But anyway, this is not the the thread to discuss it.
 

Nilgiri

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And despite knowing this India has its full support behind BAL. Instead of respecting the BD's peoples choice and working with the democratic government, India's firm stance as regional power behind the entity that stripped the peoples of Bangladesh of their most fundamental right of free and fair election has created a huge problem. But anyway, this is not the the thread to discuss it.

Countries have various interests. Autocracy is secondary or tertiary concern if a concern at all (since the non-autocrat, pluralist principles apply to your own country, not others, the constitution applies to your nationstate, not others).

Take the US cultivated approach to PRC in the 2nd half of cold war and post cold war era....especially given the greater strength of principled institutions the US has crafted and set in within its country compared to India where these have faced serious fits and starts, pressures, attritions and reversals relative to their course......and how these obviously contrast to the PRC ones (especially in sustained praxis, back then and now) yet proving no impediment or obstacle for the US to bridge in its interests as it sees and learns from as it chooses to.

India's interests have always aligned with the BAL (another thing that differed intensely between more autocrat Indira Gandhi and the internally pluralist-principled USA at the critical juncture for the Bangladeshi people)...as the other options BD have thrown up since are way worse to India.

How BD works upon addressing this is for BD to do....and also from learning from any consequences those bring up. Its a large entity, 2xturkiye or 2xiran population, so theres obviously a large enough presence of good, tough, morally sound people in it (with a job to do if they set their minds and purpose to it), like anywhere else in world.....so I personally have gotten desensitized to the victimhood narrative that has surfaced at times. I dont like excessive victimhood narratives in general, theres are really bad ones that have taken shape in India too....it intersects with cowardliness, laziness and incompetence of people with privilege and idle time and often sufficiently loose morals.

Egyptian friends of mine (all 3 of them) are pro-Sisi for a reason too, they absolutely DESPISE the "muslim brotherhood"...as simply they subvert the core principles altogether while feigning democratic ideals using an extreme identitarian populist ruse again harnessing victimhood, other conspiracies and much else.

If the military autocrat is what is required to hold more of the principles together so an actual democracy can form later (within the scope for what democracy is for), so be it. Society needs reform in interim till it understands this collectively. That is their summary. These are principled secular nationalist folks in the end....its why I am friends with them in first place.

BD has much of this going on as well. Lot of Bangladeshi friends I trust have described it in various ways over time.
 
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