Turkey's future in NATO | Debate & Discussion

Glass🚬

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@Glass🚬 Could you please point out any benefit from exiting NATO today?

We will not have to protect the small, irrelevant and weak nations in NATO once the Russians make a move, and they will make a move (nato fanboys dont like what I write but I dont give a **) and these nations are the absolute majority, we will not have to engage in the conflicts which in NATO engages every decade, we could pursue an independent policy which would positively affect our security rather than negatively- guess whos taking in all these afghan refugees 20 years later. Furthermore us leaving NATO will open new doors for other, different strategic partnerships.


and now you, what are the benefits of us being inside NATO ? There are clear benefits of Turkey being inside NATO for NATO but the other way around?
 

Ardabas34

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We will not have to protect the small, irrelevant and weak nations in NATO once the Russians make a move, and they will make a move (nato fanboys dont like what I write but I dont give a **) and these nations are the absolute majority, we will not have to engage in the conflicts which in NATO engages every decade, we could pursue an independent policy which would positively affect our security rather than negatively- guess whos taking in all these afghan refugees 20 years later. Furthermore us leaving NATO will open new doors for other, different strategic partnerships.


and now you, what are the benefits of us being inside NATO ? There are clear benefits of Turkey being inside NATO for NATO but the other way around?

Turkey can sabotage or blackmail to sabotage Nato with its veto right.

Turkey doesnt have to oblige to its Nato duties and responsibilites. Turkey can still kick the US soldiers and bases out while staying inside Nato to further divide it.

and these actions of Turkey will catalyze the collapse of Nato. Which in turn may force the US to reconciliate with Turkey.
 

Glass🚬

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Turkey can sabotage or blackmail to sabotage Nato with its veto right.
They tried to veto the defense plan for the baltics but backtracked- and got nothing in return, well more embargoes.

Turkey doesnt have to oblige to its Nato duties and responsibilites. Turkey can still kick the US soldiers and bases out while staying inside Nato to further divide it.
Turkey doenst have to oblige to its NATO duties but NATO boy Akar happily does. Throwing US soldiers out and closing the bases would be a start but we will see. The nukes are already in the process of being removed.
and these actions of Turkey will catalyze the collapse of Nato. Which in turn may force the US to reconciliate with Turkey.
The collapse of NATO has already begun but we need a game plan for post-NATO and why should Turkey want to reconciliate with the US after all the mischief they have caused? Nope.
 

Ardabas34

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They tried to veto the defense plan for the baltics but backtracked- and got nothing in return, well more embargoes.


Turkey doenst have to oblige to its NATO duties but NATO boy Akar happily does. Throwing US soldiers out and closing the bases would be a start but we will see. The nukes are already in the process of being removed.

The collapse of NATO has already begun but we need a game plan for post-NATO and why should Turkey want to reconciliate with the US after all the mischief they have caused? Nope.

It would be a scandal if they embargoed us for using our right. Vetoing is our right and we can use it the way we want. They can give another excuse but f them. They support Ypg, Pkk, Gulenists and Greeks in Aegean and E.Mediterranian. We will eventually ''anger'' them anyway.

For the previous veto attempt. We dont know a whole lot deal about it.

Erdogan and his family are a security concern for Turkey because they are literally grabbed by their balls with the Halkbank suitcase. So they might have got counter blackmailed. Strategies like these will not work when Erdogan is in charge but Erdogan isnt permanent while Nato is a long term thing. One day Erdogan will be gone, Halkbank suitcase will lose its importance but Nato will remain or not.

With all these being said, we dont know what we got in exchange. Hopefully it wasnt sth personal for Erdogan and his family but a concession in favor of Turkish people. Unfortunately I have my doubts.

Regardless, this doesnt change the fact our veto right can get useful in the future.

If Akar is a Nato boy then the problem is Akar.

If Nato collapses we will take our position in the new world order. Thats another thing.
 

Glass🚬

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It would be a scandal if they embargoed us for using our right. Vetoing is our right and we can use it the way we want. They can give another excuse but f them. They support Ypg, Pkk, Gulenists and Greeks in Aegean and E.Mediterranian. We will eventually ''anger'' them anyway.

Its not, thats how it has been now for the past decades, they think they will get away with it, we can remind them otherwise by making sure that NATO wont exist, making sure that the bear has a free move on them.

For the previous veto attempt. We dont know a whole lot deal about it.
We know that someone leaked info about it and typically that does never happen and Turkey backtracked afterwards. So veto right was there but they didnt make a use out of it.

Erdogan and his family are a security concern for Turkey because they are literally grabbed by their balls with the Halkbank suitcase. So they might have got counter blackmailed. Strategies like these will not work when Erdogan is in charge but Erdogan isnt permanent while Nato is a long term thing. One day Erdogan will be gone, Halkbank suitcase will lose its importance but Nato will remain or not.
Maybe, maybe not and NATO was a long term alliance which caused a lot of trouble for Turkey i dont think there is a future. I would love to know the reason why Turkey backtracked maybe we will know in the future if some retired diplomat decides to publish a book.

With all these being said, we dont know what we got in exchange. Hopefully it wasnt sth personal for Erdogan and his family but a concession in favor of Turkish people. Unfortunately I have my doubts.
Quite frankly I dont think we have gotten anything out of it or something very minimal, if we judge for example the diplomatic skills based on the refugee deal from 2016 that is already indicative that Turks accept minimal demands.

Regardless, this doesnt change the fact our veto right can get useful in the future.
We will observe how things will develop, my position is clear on NATO but also depends if they make these negotiations public. If they do, this will be the thread for it and u will have the NATO fanboys storming in and complaining why its such a bad idea to veto NATO plans lol but u will see.
 

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Same nonsense ummetist neo ottoman anti western discussions over and over again.. Only short sighted people think about leaving NATO just for Today's problems. People with proper logic would understand this will only benefit enemies of Turkey. NATO is an invisible shield without any effort. What is the benefit of leaving NATO? Just because they don't sell you weapons??? They will not sell a screw when you left. What is this obsession of loneliness of AKP supporters. Turkey is already alone, they think Russia or China will be good partners or Arabs?

Some NATO countries are still best allies of Turkey and Russia is not an ally, it is a partner depending on occasion. Russia is still an traditional threat for Turkey, and will always be. Anti- NATO guys think Turkey achieved all these defence technology achievements alone..!

Not all are willingly putting embargo, why did your President sent Navy's TB2s instead of sending National ANKA's ? Why Turkey become so anti-democratic and corrupt? Some countries just don't like how Turkey is turning into an anti democratic middle-eastern one man autocracy. They don't trust the government, like what happened in Iran or Iraq back in 80s. Sometimes self-criticism is required. And also look how pro-active Turkey is recently.. jumping war to war.. If I were Europeans I would be concerned too.. They don't understand some actions and perceive as threat. Turkey is also responsible what happened in Syria and Libya as much as USA and Some EU countries. Blame West but also think about your faults as well.

War is the only way you are going to defend your interests.

By the way jumping into wars one by one basically allowed Turkey to take what it wants if not it will be standing by like a mal while its enemies and neighbours take all the riches.
 

Ardabas34

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We will observe how things will develop, my position is clear on NATO but also depends if they make these negotiations public. If they do, this will be the thread for it and u will have the NATO fanboys storming in and complaining why its such a bad idea to veto NATO plans lol but u will see.

By the way just wanted to make it clear I am also anti-Nato. So your opinions and mine only differ at the tactical scale. It was a period in our nations history maybe we had to comply and didnt really get to choose during cold war era. There is no doubt that Nato will be a thing of the history soon enough. All the symptoms point at it and be it in 10 years or 20 years USA will shrink into a more regional superpower rather than a global one like it is now. It isl already showing critical symptoms of it. Even us, I mean them losing their grasp on Turkey is perhaps the most serious symptom or the French presidents comments on Nato.
And maybe we wont see the day or maybe we will but hopefully the day of redemption will come and will bite them in the ass.

I just watched Fahreneit 11/9 and after seeing those Iraqi mothers crying for redemption I swear to you sth inside me happened. After so many years I dropped some tears from my eyes.
I am an atheist but that woman sheltering herself to Allah was so human to me. That desperation and anger and the fact that the other side is so powerful and she can do nothing about it taught me why Allah exists. People need Allah because of the cruels like the USA.
 

Ryder

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By the way just wanted to make it clear I am also anti-Nato. So your opinions and mine only differ at the tactical scale. It was a period in our nations history maybe we had to comply and didnt really get to choose during cold war era. There is no doubt that Nato will be a thing of the history soon enough. All the symptoms point at it and be it in 10 years or 20 years USA will shrink into a more regional superpower rather than a global one like it is now. It isl already showing critical symptoms of it. Even us, I mean them losing their grasp on Turkey is perhaps the most serious symptom or the French presidents comments on Nato.
And maybe we wont see the day or maybe we will but hopefully the day of redemption will come and will bite them in the ass.

I just watched Fahreneit 11/9 and after seeing those Iraqi mothers crying for redemption I swear to you sth inside me happened. After so many years I dropped some tears from my eyes.
I am an atheist but that woman sheltering herself to Allah was so human to me. That desperation and anger and the fact that the other side is so powerful and she can do nothing about it taught me why Allah exists. People need Allah because of the cruels like the USA.

Thats why support the Turkish armed forces and the military industry without it.

Our enemies would be flying over like vultures waiting to feast on our bodies.

True fact.
 

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I think hes aware now that NATO doesnt provide Turkey anything rather then headaches.
....And Patriots/SAMP-T on the Syrian border. If you want to see a headache just see what happens if Turkey leaves NATO. The current situation with all our operations abroad like Northern Iraq, Syria, Libya and Karabakh will seem to you like a kinder garden birthday party.
 

Glass🚬

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....And Patriots/SAMP-T on the Syrian border. If you want to see a headache just see what happens if Turkey leaves NATO. The current situation with all our operations abroad like Northern Iraq, Syria, Libya and Karabakh will seem to you like a kinder garden birthday party.
The very same Patriots they removed right after we shot down the Russian jet, the very SAMP-T they removed after operation peace spring?
 
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Glass🚬

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or do u mean the symbolic spanish one which is at incirlik? you know the giant airbase which is defended by american patriots anyway?

You srsly believe NATO defends Turkish airspace, have u seen how many times cavusoglou made it clear that NATO not even covers half of Turkish airspace?
 

Kartal1

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or do u mean the symbolic spanish one which is at incirlik? you know the giant airbase which is defended by american patriots anyway?

You srsly believe NATO defends Turkish airspace, have u seen how many times cavusoglou made it clear that NATO not even covers half of Turkish airspace?
There is a SAMP-T battery that is scanning against threats from Syria and the location is not Incirlik.
 

Glass🚬

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Just some guy throwing a fit because some NATO countries, placed embargo on Turkey. In their mind Turkey never takes a misstep, never makes an error, it's all the fault of foreign countries.
Its is a no brainer that many of current problems would have been easily avoided by following a pragmatic foreign policy instead of the emotional one.
But there are also some fields where a clash is/was inevitable like Aegean or eastern mediterranian issue.
 

Kartal1

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Sleepy kartal, they removed them.


NATO isnt good. Accept that already.
Yep! Looks like I did a mistake. My information was dated from November and they removed them December.

That doesn't change my mind. Turkey is way more powerful in NATO. Membership in NATO is a guarantee for TRNC and prevention for the scenario where Turkey turns into Iraq or Syria. All the tasks given to Turkey by NATO are within the national interests of Turkey. We did not participated in combat missions or participated in any controversial acts in the name of NATO. A membership in NATO is a guarantee that any possible conflict will be there on a proxy level. Otherwise you will see how Turkey turns into Iraq right after Saddam was killed. We have veto rights, we have protection on paper. What will China give you? Malfunctioning military equipment. You will never receive nuclear umbrella or any Chinese protection. Chinese soldiers will fight shoulder to shoulder against the "imperial army"? This is absurd. For NATO to wage a war against Turkey as a member state will be like to shoot its own foot. The reason why China's economy is booming and it is prospering on so many fields is that China don't meddle into other's conflicts thousands of kilometers away. If you expect China to give Turkey protection you will be wrong. They will indebt Turkey, chew it and throw it to the Russians and the next fight over influence in Eurasia will be that over Kurdistan, Agri Mountain and Istanbul.
 

Glass🚬

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Yep! Looks like I did a mistake. My information was dated from November and they removed them December.

That doesn't change my mind. Turkey is way more powerful in NATO. Membership in NATO is a guarantee for TRNC and prevention for the scenario where Turkey turns into Iraq or Syria. All the tasks given to Turkey by NATO are within the national interests of Turkey. We did not participated in combat missions or participated in any controversial acts in the name of NATO. A membership in NATO is a guarantee that any possible conflict will be there on a proxy level. Otherwise you will see how Turkey turns into Iraq right after Saddam was killed. We have veto rights, we have protection on paper. What will China give you? Malfunctioning military equipment. You will never receive nuclear umbrella or any Chinese protection. Chinese soldiers will fight shoulder to shoulder against the "imperial army"? This is absurd. For NATO to wage a war against Turkey as a member state will be like to shoot its own foot. The reason why China's economy is booming and it is prospering on so many fields is that China don't meddle into other's conflicts thousands of kilometers away. If you expect China to give Turkey protection you will be wrong. They will indebt Turkey, chew it and throw it to the Russians and the next fight over influence in Eurasia will be that over Kurdistan, Agri Mountain and Istanbul.

And ur arguments are based on what? These are weak arguments, back in the days when I reminded u of NATO, it was that "NATO provides Turkey air defense against Russia", that turned out to be false, later on as that argument could no longer be used- u NATO folks took the argument that Turkey has access to western defense industries and that argument is still to some extent valid but we all know that we have reached a point where stuff we cant produce yet, is embargoed left and right and we are all aware of this and since that argument also can longer be used u folks are now

writing up fairy tales, thats the reality and because of this and because of the fact that u folks are running out of arguments just to justify Turkeys NATO membership I have made this comment

If NATO would nuke Istanbul in a hypothetical scenario, future responses from the very same people would be:"If We LeAvE NaTo -NaTo LeD aMerIca WiLl nOt JuSt nUkE Istanbul BuT aLso Ankara" smh.

^thats the reason for that.
 

mulj

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NATO is necessary evil for Turkey altough Glass arguments are really hard to dispute. Simply you need to swallow the pills and build up you economy to be stable above 1 trillion with most possible technological indenpendence then you can consider some bolder option regarding relations with west and nato, untill then you have to relly as deliorman said on hard work and sabr.
 
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GoatsMilk

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Turkey won’t help any country inside NATO, rightfully so, least countries like Norway that on purpose try to sabotage Turkey’s military and NATO’s southern front line.

You can put Sweden and Denmark on that list too who will cry for help the second the bear comes.

NATO is dead, Macron was right but for the wrong reasons.
Macron is mad he can’t use NATO for his own interests.
So he calls it dead.

But in reality NATO is dead because the majority of its members are more concerned with sabotaging and attacking one of their own members(Turkey) instead of acting and containing Russia, the main reason for NATO’s existence in the first place.

And again NATO let Ukraine down, as will it leave Eastern Europe down when the time comes.

But leaving NATO right now is a fools errand. The second you leave, Greek border becomes NATO border, Greek waters become NATO waters, Greek demands become NATO demands.

This way NATO can’t do anything serious against Turkey, at least if it wants to continue existing after the fallout after such actions.


Turkey needs at least another 10-15 years maybe if you want to be safe another 20 years before it can disconnect itself from NATO.

It will come in time.

But maybe NATO will crumble from within and cease to exist before any of it can even happen.

It wouldn’t be impossible.


Nevertheless Turkey needs to draw up plans already for when that time finally comes.

Maybe the concept of our own little alliance with allied countries.

Restoring and improving relations with important neighbors.

Things like that will be important once you take that jump.

Correct statement, we need 10 to 20 years more of domestic development. At that point we will be a nation of over 100 million and if we can join with Azerbaijan we will be a nation of 120 million and we will have military might to go it alone.

So Turkey plays the game, its puts up with what it has to do and does what it can when it can. But we must also beaware the enemies of Turkey also see where Turkey is heading, they will become more aggressive, hedge their rivalries against them.

Ataturk salvaged us a nation and we were 10 million big. A 10 million Turkey that couldnt produce shit survived the second world war and outlived the cold war. We are on the verge of entering a period where all the enemies are going to get a taste.

10 to 20 years more, after that its time to get slapping ass.

The only way we lose is poor political leadership where under AK party unfortunately we have had plenty.

Its worth pointing out that the america, europe and russia wanted armenia to win the recent Karabagh. Despite what they wanted Azerbaijan won. In Libya they wanted Haftar to win, instead Turkey alone turned the tide. In Syria we had Russia, America, Europe and all the muslim middle eastern lackeys threatening Turkey not to enter, we entered 4 times.

Lets not underestimate Turkish balls, our ancestors at time had it thousands times worse, they still rose to great power status. All of these attacks against the Turkish people is waking the Turk up, many are seeing the real picture and are starting to behave accordingly.
 
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