TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[what]

Read the damn article instead of repeating what you saw in the headline or what one user posted.

The total package that will be approved is 20bln in total, including the F35s for Greece. I dont know about the numbers but its not 20bln € just for our orders.

I guess Greece and Turkey being bundled in one package is to get the approval of the lobbyists on the opposing side.

 

[Afif]

Read the damn article instead of repeating what you saw in the headline or what one user posted.

The total package that will be approved is 20bln in total, including the F35s for Greece. I dont know about the numbers but its not 20bln € just for our orders.

I guess Greece and Turkey being bundled in one package is to get the approval of the lobbyists on the opposing side.

You are right but still, Greece is only buying 18/24 f35s. which no way can go over 4/5 billion dollars.
it will still left you with 15/16 billion dollars for Turkish F16 package deal. Which was initially thought to be only around 6 billion.

 

[Baryshx]

A 100 year old F16 for us but an F35 for Greece is a pretty shitty and ridiculous trade. Then let's buy Eurofighters from the UK. In fact, let's not buy anything, let's wait for Hürjet and TF-X.

 

[what]

You are right but still, Greece is only buying 18/24 f35s. which no way can go over 4/5 billion dollars.
it will still left you with 15/16 billion dollars for Turkish F16 package deal. Which was initially thought to be only around 6 billion.

We dont know the exact numbers so its difficult to guesstimate. But if Greece orders 30 (as stated in the article) and the F35 prices are expected to rise (https://www.defensenews.com/industr...ts-have-been-declining-thats-about-to-change/). We could assume a price of maybe 100m Dollars and that doesnt include and service or weaponry. That's at least 3bln Dollars for the F35 + services, might be as much as 6bln €? Just guessing, probably higher.

We apparently want 40 new F16 and the upgrade kits + missiles.

Bulgaria paid a whooping 1.3bln Dollars for just 8 F16 last year (https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/09/22/bulgarian-approves-f-16-purchase/). I assume thats including services because the plane itself cant be that expensive.

If we assume Bulgarias 8 x 5 for our 40 that would be around 6-7 bln € just for the 40 F16. Earlier reports in the media mentioned something along the lines of 8bln € for the package. Thats still expensive.
The 79 upgrade kits if we guess 20m per piece, that would be another 1.6bln Dollars.

I guess the A2A missiles are close to 1m € per piece, so thats 900m Dollars. The 800 unspecified bombs no idea.

That means if my uneducated guess is not totally BS 20-6 for Greece = 14bln €
8bln Dollars for the new jets = 6bln € left
- A2A missiles = 5bln Dollars left
- 79 upgrade kits = 3.4bln Dollars
Minus the unspecified bombs = ??


Maybe WSJ is wrong, maybe there are other orders and countries bundled in the package. We dont know the details yet. So while it will be far from the 20bln Dollars, its still a fucking expensive deal.

 

[what]

A 100 year old F16 for us but an F35 for Greece is a pretty shitty and ridiculous trade. Then let's buy Eurofighters from the UK. In fact, let's not buy anything, let's wait for Hürjet and TF-X.

I'm afraid we might lose the edge in the Aegean in the air for a while if we decide to go that way. Some kind of deal to close the gap till TF-X can be delivered would be good to have.

 

[Baryshx]

I'm afraid we might lose the edge in the Aegean in the air for a while if we decide to go that way. Some kind of deal to close the gap till TF-X can be delivered would be good to have.

Greece is years away from getting the F35. Besides, so what if it does, will it declare war on Turkiye?

If the F16s we have are at the end of their lifespan or have a reduced lifespan, then that's different. But I still don't like the fact that we are giving this amount of money to the US.

A few years ago, the US and Fetö were going to divide Turkiye and make it a Sharia country like Iran. These are forgotten or ignored very quickly.

 

[Kedikesenfare]

Funny, neither Turks nor Greeks seem to be happy with this.

 

[Tuncay]

A 100 year old F16 for us but an F35 for Greece is a pretty shitty and ridiculous trade. Then let's buy Eurofighters from the UK. In fact, let's not buy anything, let's wait for Hürjet and TF-X.

not buying anything is also a risky bet the power balance between tr and gr has shifted in favour of greece with this order if it goes through, no need to further argue this its a fact until KE-B enters service even then how a KE will hold up against a f35 is a different subject + in the case of a potential war they will not be alone we will also face France in a best case scenario. Israel is already superior to us in terms of Air Force. No need to sugarcoat this , neither akinci or tb2 are sufficient in air combat we have neglected the air force. The very best case scenario for tf-x to enter service is 2027 and this is if everything pans out better than planned. 4 years is a heck of a long time just in 2022 global tension has increased drastically some countries at the verge of war ( balkans taiwan s.korea etc.) and some have even waged war. We need reinforcements for the air force , the country of origin or model doesnt matter . Exclude france and US they will only delay us , Eurofighters are a good call but the logisitcs/infrastructure are gonna be a pain in the... domestic products are also going to need further adjustment i assume . we could even attempt to buy the F18s the swiss are trying to retire . All considered its a sticky situation , not going to lie though i would love to see the F15EX with TUAF roundlets

 

[Baklava Consumer]

I don't even understand how a country like Greece can even afford 30 F-35s??
Armenia spends 12% of its GDP on military since last war..that's unsustainable.
Greece spent 3.9% of GDP in 2021, which is $8 billion, up from $5 billion in 2019.
In 2022 Greece's expenses were higher than $8.4 billion, 50% of the money is for new purchases..
Can they even maintain the equipment they buy?

 

[Kedikesenfare]

I don't even understand how a country like Greece can even afford 30 F-35s??
Armenia spends 12% of its GDP on military since last war..that's unsustainable.
Greece spent 3.9% of GDP in 2021, which is $8 billion, up from $5 billion in 2019.
In 2022 Greece's expenses were higher than $8.4 billion, 50% of the money is for new purchases..
Can they even maintain the equipment they buy?

They have admitted to have very low stockpiles of ammunition. It's a well-known problem that effects the entire military of our neighbor.

There is serious opposition against the acquisition of F35s, too. Some argue that investing that kind of money into the existing infrastructure would make much more sense.

I remember a Greek newspaper article basically admitting that Greek stockpiles of ammunition, spare parts and other military necessities would only cover 1 to 2 weeks of a full fledged war against Turkey.

Also, they criticize the US for linking the Greek F35 sale to Turkey's F16 purchase, noting that America is still not ready to choose them over us Turks.

 

[Yasar_TR]

When you buy F35 planes from US, it isn’t just a bare plane that you buy. There is training, ground set up systems, spares, ancillary equipment, integrated weapons, special sensors etc etc
Germany bought 35 planes for a price of 8.4 billion dollars. That makes 240 million dollars a piece.
Canada just agreed to buy 88 planes at a cost of 15 billion dollars. That makes 170 million dollars a piece.
Then there is the cost of maintaining these planes.
Hourly cost of flight of f35 is 33600dollars. A fighter plane has to fly an average of 200 hours yearly. (At certain times, like now with more happening around, it can be in excess of 350 hours.) At 200 hours that makes close to 7 million dollars a plane per year.
With all these costs, it would be interesting to see how much Greece will pay for the 30 units of F35planes. My money is on, more than 6 billion dollars. Then there is the cost of at least 7-10 million dollars a year per plane to keep them in the air.

 

[Blackeyes90]

Buying F-35's are one thing operating them are another. I remember one Israeli Airforce General's interview about the F-35 planes. He said that F35's wont adopt to the Airforce's System. They will change the Entire Airforce for the F-35 because of the Networking and next generation Combat operations. Lets remember that Greece operates F16's for god knows how long. But they are still not capable Joint combat operations like we do. So buying F35's wont be as deadly as we might think. But we do need extra planes.

 

[blackjack]

I am genuinely curious, every block upgrade that occurs with the F-35 do all the allies receive it? Like say the U.S. moves to like block 4, but countries that already purchased the F-35s are on block 3, do they have to purchase anything additional to upgrades theirs to block 4?

 

[zio]

Munitions?.Now I decided we are really silly people.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Funny, neither Turks nor Greeks seem to be happy with this.

Greeks are not happy because they are spoiled brats wanting shiny toys they really don't deserve.

We are not happy because we expect the worst but they somehow find a way to do worse than worst, every. friggin. time.

 

[Khagan1923]

We dont know the exact numbers so its difficult to guesstimate. But if Greece orders 30 (as stated in the article) and the F35 prices are expected to rise (https://www.defensenews.com/industr...ts-have-been-declining-thats-about-to-change/). We could assume a price of maybe 100m Dollars and that doesnt include and service or weaponry. That's at least 3bln Dollars for the F35 + services, might be as much as 6bln €? Just guessing, probably higher.

We apparently want 40 new F16 and the upgrade kits + missiles.

Bulgaria paid a whooping 1.3bln Dollars for just 8 F16 last year (https://www.thedefensepost.com/2022/09/22/bulgarian-approves-f-16-purchase/). I assume thats including services because the plane itself cant be that expensive.

If we assume Bulgarias 8 x 5 for our 40 that would be around 6-7 bln € just for the 40 F16. Earlier reports in the media mentioned something along the lines of 8bln € for the package. Thats still expensive.
The 79 upgrade kits if we guess 20m per piece, that would be another 1.6bln Dollars.

I guess the A2A missiles are close to 1m € per piece, so thats 900m Dollars. The 800 unspecified bombs no idea.

That means if my uneducated guess is not totally BS 20-6 for Greece = 14bln €
8bln Dollars for the new jets = 6bln € left
- A2A missiles = 5bln Dollars left
- 79 upgrade kits = 3.4bln Dollars
Minus the unspecified bombs = ??


Maybe WSJ is wrong, maybe there are other orders and countries bundled in the package. We dont know the details yet. So while it will be far from the 20bln Dollars, its still a fucking expensive deal.

According to Reuters the 20 Billion dollars are just Türkiyes deal. If true no way that only includes F-16 and missiles and Bombs. That deal at best wouldn’t pass 10 billion with the majority going towards the 40 new F-16V. 79 kits will most likely cost less than 2 billion. Let’s say 40 new built F-16 cost 6 and the missiles and bombs another 2 where the fuck do the other 9-10 Billion come from.

Greece paid 2.4 for 89 Kits.
Also a higher volume purchase would push the price down.
There has to be something wrong with the reporting here.

Either the deal includes things they are keeping secret or the US is trying to Hose us.

For 20 billions we can go and knock on Europes door for Eurofighter.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Also why buying missiles and bombs when Roketsan and Tubitak produces them ? When will Gokdogan and Bozdogan be mass produced and enter service ?

 

[Brokengineer]

According to Reuters the 20 Billion dollars are just Türkiyes deal. If true no way that only includes F-16 and missiles and Bombs. That deal at best wouldn’t pass 10 billion with the majority going towards the 40 new F-16V. 79 kits will most likely cost less than 2 billion. Let’s say 40 new built F-16 cost 6 and the missiles and bombs another 2 where the fuck do the other 9-10 Billion come from.

Greece paid 2.4 for 89 Kits.
Also a higher volume purchase would push the price down.
There has to be something wrong with the reporting here.

Either the deal includes things they are keeping secret or the US is trying to Hose us.

For 20 billions we can go and knock on Europes door for Eurofighter.

29billion usd was 80 rafale f4 purchase of UAE with some choppers and goodies. 20bn is serious number.

 

[Zafer]

$20bn can finish current defence industry projects of Turkiye several times over. It is no brainer to keep the money at home and boost the support for the projects.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Biden administration is obviously trying to find a way to sell F16 in order not to lose Turkiye and so, Greek F35 and Turkish F16 sales are going to the congress at the same time. The costs mentioned are roughly calculated values. The actual price will be calculated in the negotiations to be held for contract to be signed later.

After approval and contract signing, 79 F16 modernization will probably be done at TAI facilities with kits from LM and can be completed in a short time. Negotiations continue for the production of 40 F16V by TAI. Some of offset lost in F35' project can be compensated a little bit thanks to this project.

In the meantime, our Air Force's dependence on US maintenance and munitions with this sale will continue for a while but I think this purchase is a need as an intermediate solution.

The fleet structure that will be formed in final situation is;

• 79 F16V(Upgrade) with AIM120D BVR and APG83 GaAs
• 40 F16V (new) with AIM120D and APG83 GaAs
• 30 + (max.160 F16s as per December SSIK decision to go ahead with national F16 modernization) F16T with Gökdoğan B1/2, Gökhan B1/2 BVR and Murad GaN and FEWS EW maybe!

Total ~275-280 state of art F16