TR Turkish History|Debate and Discussion

[Ryder]

Emrah Safa Gurkan talked about the madrasas of the Ottoman Empire. He says Ottoman society was a non-book reading society. Thats why printing press didnt come actually. Because there was no demand because people had no habit of reading books. The amount of books madrasah students read were so limited in numbers.

Also you are forgetting Ottoman Empire was a direct neighbour of Europe whereas Chinese met them in a pretty late state.

Unfortunately not getting the printing press early on was a big mistake.

It should have been adopted and improved. It was pushed aside due to wide range of factors. People can easily blame religion but there is more to it.

Europeans got mass production right while we relied on scribes and writing by hand.

Chinese still traded with the Europeans. Japanese imported plate armour and even guns. Far east tend to isolate themselves a lot actually.

Confusiuism was even more conservative than Islam and Christianity.

I really suggest people read Gabor Agostin's books he truly explains how the Ottomand adpated to their economic, military and political problems especially after Suleymans death.

Ottomans decline mainly began at the first half of the 18th century but the beginning of the end was when they lost the Great Turkish war.

Unesco did a study the Ottoman literacy rate was around 20 to 30 before ww1 began.

While Ottoman fanboys push it to 60 to 90 and while Kemalists push it down 2 to 10%.

Suggests how both sides are wrong.

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435888479217520642

Has it ever occured to these liberals that the Turkish army burning Izmir makes no sense.

As Izmir was too valuable not to burn down?

If the Turks burnt Izmir down they would have also burnt Istanbul when it got liberated.

The culprits are either Greek or Armenian. You had special reports of Armenians who started the fire. Greek army starting the fire up due to their usual sorch earth policy of retreating and not allowing the Turks to benefit is also another cause of study.

Lets think I mean why would the Turks burn their own city down when Izmir was a valuable city that has to retaken without much damage same with Istanbul.

 

[Tornadoss]

The Ottomans made great achievements in art, science and medicines. European elites visited Istanbul (worldwide recognized as a artistic hub) for surgeries for example. They invented many medical tools what we are using today. Let alone Ottoman architecture with their stunning buildings, the reason why tourists are visiting Turkey today.

They are not visiting Turkey to see buildings build by the Republic, they are interested in Ottoman buildings made by Mimar Sinan and his students. They visit Turkey to see the map of Piri Reis, the first drawn worldmap and the most accurate of that period.

Ottomans invested a lot of money, time and brains in calligraphy, painting, poetry, mathematics, astronomy, carpet weaving techniques, ceramics, philosophy, music, geography and chemistry and today the Turkish republic is eating from their fruits.

Even the most anti-Ottoman Turks dont say that the Ottoman culture was a failed civilisation. Its the only history you got and the only reason that the world recognizes you. If you keep saying that your civilisation was a disaster, that means that you also are a disaster.

The world doesnt respect or fear us because of our tiny farmers republic without islands. They fear or respect us because of our great and massive Ottoman forefathers.

There were achievements in science up to a point, then it stopped. In Lale devri there was some art and music, then there were palaces built with borrowed money. Nobody denying there was no cultural heritage left from Ottomans, but after the 16th, 17th century there are no great achievements. Ottomans lagged behind science, education, medicine. And this is where we learn some lessons about why they failed and what we should not repeat.

I am not sure there is much respect towards Ottomans in geographies where they ruled maybe some Balkan Muslims and some from Africa. Actually, there was respect for the Turkish Republic until some point thanks to Ataturk now akp is destroying all that remaining. Tiny farmers republic lol. You should get rid of that inferiority complex. If ottomans invested correctly in science, education, and industry we would not be a "farmers" republic right.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Ottomans were good up to a point, then they incrementally got shitter and shitter. The results are there for everyone to see, the empire ended up being defeated and divided among non Muslim races.

This idea that the empire is one picture is false. It was good up to a point and you saw that ability show itself on the battlefield. Conquest after Conquest. But when it was failing you saw defeat after defeat.

To insult the republic Ataturk gave us after the Ottomans sank not only Turkey but the entire empire is a massive islamist insecurity complex. Muslims cant understand why the non-Muslim worlds shits all over her, humiliates her, slaps her about like cheap little slut.

Take the Kemalists out of the picture and today i doubt Turkish muslims exist, greeks and armenians would have wiped you all out and no one in the world would have said anything just like no one says anything about the communist filth genociding the Uygur Turks. Actually most Muslims states like honourless scum even side with what China is doing.

Education is key, everything rests on it.

We got too many mosques, too many imam hatip schools. What we need is world class education. The non Muslim who has all the power doesnt care for your Allah. We need turn the culture of Islam into a culture of scientific advancement. Being Muslim needs to be about being the best, no longer about being we will be rewarded in the afterlife while we are humilated in this life.

 

[Ryder]

Ottomans were good up to a point, then they incrementally got shitter and shitter. The results are there for everyone to see, the empire ended up being defeated and divided among non Muslim races.

This idea that the empire is one picture is false. It was good up to a point and you saw that ability show itself on the battlefield. Conquest after Conquest. But when it was failing you saw defeat after defeat.

To insult the republic Ataturk gave us after the Ottomans sank not only Turkey but the entire empire is a massive islamist insecurity complex. Muslims cant understand why the non-Muslim worlds shits all over her, humiliates her, slaps her about like cheap little slut.

Take the Kemalists out of the picture and today i doubt Turkish muslims exist, greeks and armenians would have wiped you all out and no one in the world would have said anything just like no one says anything about the communist filth genociding the Uygur Turks. Actually most Muslims states like honourless scum even side with what China is doing.

Education is key, everything rests on it.

We got too many mosques, too many imam hatip schools. What we need is world class education. The non Muslim who has all the power doesnt care for your Allah. We need turn the culture of Islam into a culture of scientific advancement. Being Muslim needs to be about being the best, no longer about being we will be rewarded in the afterlife while we are humilated in this life.

If only we heeded Ibn Khaldun.

His works and even reading them brings chills down my spine it is as if he predicted the downfall of the Islamic World centuries ago.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Ottomans were good up to a point, then they incrementally got shitter and shitter. The results are there for everyone to see, the empire ended up being defeated and divided among non Muslim races.

This idea that the empire is one picture is false. It was good up to a point and you saw that ability show itself on the battlefield. Conquest after Conquest. But when it was failing you saw defeat after defeat.

To insult the republic Ataturk gave us after the Ottomans sank not only Turkey but the entire empire is a massive islamist insecurity complex. Muslims cant understand why the non-Muslim worlds shits all over her, humiliates her, slaps her about like cheap little slut.

Take the Kemalists out of the picture and today i doubt Turkish muslims exist, greeks and armenians would have wiped you all out and no one in the world would have said anything just like no one says anything about the communist filth genociding the Uygur Turks. Actually most Muslims states like honourless scum even side with what China is doing.

Education is key, everything rests on it.

We got too many mosques, too many imam hatip schools. What we need is world class education. The non Muslim who has all the power doesnt care for your Allah. We need turn the culture of Islam into a culture of scientific advancement. Being Muslim needs to be about being the best, no longer about being we will be rewarded in the afterlife while we are humilated in this life.

Muslims have always been at their strongest point in history when their religion was in place. The enemy was frightened miles away from our footsteps, and we fighted for the weak and supressed. When my ancestors ruled Al Andalus it was the light of europe in terms of islamic education, science and much more.dont talk on behalf of muslims please because you made alot of weird statement. When it comes to the things you said in the end. Being muslims is about thinking about your afterlife, but it never limits muslims in our worldy affairs. In fact islam encourage us to be the best, and have high aspiration in the dunya as long as its not something prohibited.

 

[GoatsMilk]

n terms of islamic education, science and much more.dont talk on behalf of muslims please because you made alot of weird statement. When it comes to the things y

Don't worry about my statements, worry about morocco and its shady dealings. The fact you guys were selling the arabs out during the isreali arabs wars is disgusting.

Morrocans behaved in a similar way during Ottoman times. Helped you protect your country from portugese/spanish armies, but first chance you got you stiffed the Ottomans.

Still to this day you operate the same way. I've not yet seen you apologise for such low behaviour from your nation. Even today the spanish occupy parts of spain and you got nothing to say about it.

 

[Ryder]

Muslims have always been at their strongest point in history when their religion was in place. The enemy was frightened miles away from our footsteps, and we fighted for the weak and supressed. When my ancestors ruled Al Andalus it was the light of europe in terms of islamic education, science and much more.dont talk on behalf of muslims please because you made alot of weird statement. When it comes to the things you said in the end. Being muslims is about thinking about your afterlife, but it never limits muslims in our worldy affairs. In fact islam encourage us to be the best, and have high aspiration in the dunya as long as its not something prohibited.

You know some Turkish historians believe that the Ottomans cause of decline could be because the Sultans no longer lead battles.

Ottomans especially when they grew and became strong had sultans leading the campaigns.

Once that stopped the hunger for expansion and victories slowly went away.

Helmut von Moltke when serving the Ottoman army made a pretty good observation.

Turks under Osman, Orhan, Bayezid and Mehmet II were conquering forts upon forts now today the Turks are content on smoking the hookah pipe.

Ottomans executing some great leaders even commanders made things worse.

You know people find it hard to even forgive Suleyman for executing his son Mustafa. Execution of Mustafa was a crime.

As much I like the Jannisaries but they should have been abolished long ago before 1826.

Nothing more than a bunch of political wagners. Why I say wagners because the Jannisaries largely became a political force with an army.

Can you imagine a turkish political party having an army then deposing or even choosing their leaders?

This is even worse than a military coup lmaoooo

 

[Ardabas34]

The Ottomans made great achievements in art, science and medicines. European elites visited Istanbul (worldwide recognized as a artistic hub) for surgeries for example. They invented many medical tools what we are using today. Let alone Ottoman architecture with their stunning buildings, the reason why tourists are visiting Turkey today.

They are not visiting Turkey to see buildings build by the Republic, they are interested in Ottoman buildings made by Mimar Sinan and his students. They visit Turkey to see the map of Piri Reis, the first drawn worldmap and the most accurate of that period.

Ottomans invested a lot of money, time and brains in calligraphy, painting, poetry, mathematics, astronomy, carpet weaving techniques, ceramics, philosophy, music, geography and chemistry and today the Turkish republic is eating from their fruits.

Even the most anti-Ottoman Turks dont say that the Ottoman culture was a failed civilisation. Its the only history you got and the only reason that the world recognizes you. If you keep saying that your civilisation was a disaster, that means that you also are a disaster.

The world doesnt respect or fear us because of our tiny farmers republic without islands. They fear or respect us because of our great and massive Ottoman forefathers.

Cant tell if trolling or not.
1- I am not an "anti-Ottoman Turk". How can one be anti of sth that doesnt exist anymore. Ottoman Empire is our history with its goods and bads.

Just like all the places that werent Europe they remained backwards in urbanisation, economy and mentality. They did a good job at keeping their military modern despite all the empire luggage until the end but they were adapters, not the innovators. Unfortunately they have never been the innovators at anything even in 15th-16th centuries. Maybe military things like military engineering and military bands.

2- "The Ottomans made great achievements in art, science and medicines."
Definitely not science or medicines. For the art, they were good in their paradigm but that art couldnt compete with the renaissance art except for the music department. None of the "modern arts" today derive from the Ottoman Empire. Ottoman music remained as the traditional music of geographies that were culturally influenced by the Ottoman culture.

3- "European elites visited Istanbul (worldwide recognized as a artistic hub) for surgeries for example."

I only heard about vaccine tech but we just delivered it from Caucasia to Europe. We didnt invent it. Primary invention place was China.

4- "Let alone Ottoman architecture with their stunning buildings, the reason why tourists are visiting Turkey today.

They are not visiting Turkey to see buildings build by the Republic, they are interested in Ottoman buildings made by Mimar Sinan and his students."

In what part of the world modern buildings attract more touristic attention than authentic buildings?

5- "They visit Turkey to see the map of Piri Reis, the first drawn worldmap and the most accurate of that period.

Ottomans invested a lot of money, time and brains in calligraphy, painting, poetry, mathematics, astronomy, carpet weaving techniques, ceramics, philosophy, music, geography and chemistry and today the Turkish republic is eating from their fruits."

Oh my goooood!
The true information is a google search away!
Why are all these Ottoman fanboys so prone to spread false informations?
Maybe because truth doesnt have enough material for you to lay your case?

Piri Reis has never been outside of Mediterranian except for the Indian Ocean campaigns against the Portuguese. He simply composed the existing maps he acquired from Europeans. His map is important because some of the primary sources he used for his map got lost in history.

One interesting thing about people here who are constantly blaming me for calling out Ottomans as they were is that they know nothing about Ottoman history, I swear!

About painting how can you compare a renaissance painting to a fucking miniature? Ottoman painting didnt develop because of religious concerns whereas every artistic style were being born all over Europe.

About poetry even in the Turkish-islamic sphere the best one, Fuzuli, was born in Baghdad.

About mathematics, chemistry, austronomy and...philosophy!?!?!??!
Which alternate universe did you come from exactly?

Turkish republic owes to them?!?!
Even Ottoman Empire in its last 200 years owed it to Europe let alone Turkish republic. They were desperately bringing teachers from Europe to teach them some civilization!

Also ceramics were too acquired from China.

"Even the most anti-Ottoman Turks dont say that the Ottoman culture was a failed civilisation."

Even the Ottoman Sultans acknowledged this fact and did their absolute best to be part of European civilization with the endless reforms. If not for the empire luggage, bankrupt economy, never ending wars and inefficient bureucracy Ottoman Empire would literally have no difference with France.

"Its the only history you got and the only reason that the world recognizes you."

Maybe ignorant bigots like you. Turks have a history starting from Hunnic Empire to today.

"If you keep saying that your civilisation was a disaster, that means that you also are a disaster."

It has never been the civilization of simple anatolian folk, it was the civilization of priviledged elites in city centers.
Everyone from Japan, China, India acknowledged European civilizations superiority and adopted European civilization despite being geographically further away from Europe.
We also did our best in the last 300 years despite bigots and we have been successful as a country as much as we managed to adopt.

"The world doesnt respect or fear us because of our tiny farmers republic without islands. They fear or respect us because of our great and massive Ottoman forefathers."

You have the dignity of a small child and the entitlement of a radical bigot.
It was your Ottomans that didnt have the conciousness of Turkifying those islands in 500 years and it was your II.Abdulhamid that rooted the avy because of his paranoia.
And it is you bigot that blame Ankara government for taking those islands.

Not to mention blaming Anatolias and Turkish peoples condition on the republic but not the Ottomans.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Can somebody explain why the Empire founded in late 13th century was called “Ottoman” ?

 

[Ryder]

Can somebody explain why the Empire founded in late 13th century was called “Ottoman” ?

Isnt Ottoman a corruption of the word Ataman??

Osman Ghazi also went by the name Ataman.

Didnt the Ottomans overtime call themselves Devlet ul Alliyye?

Ottoman had a lot of names attached to it. But for me the name Osman comes from the Arabic name Uthman but the word Ottoman must come from the word Ataman.

What find interesting is on various maps of the Europeans the Ottomans were always called Imperium Turcicum which translate to Turkish Empire.

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1435729377711493122

The Qajar Dynasty called Ottoman ruled provinces as Turkistan.

For the Iranians who doubt the Qajars, Turkic origins and heritage. Why would they use the words Turkistan to explain Ottoman provinces?

 

[CAN_TR]

Even the most anti-Ottoman Turks dont say that the Ottoman culture was a failed civilisation. Its the only history you got and the only reason that the world recognizes you. If you keep saying that your civilisation was a disaster, that means that you also are a disaster.

That's the only history you've got maybe since you are not Turkish.

Most of the other things you mentioned is nothing but rubbish, up to the 17th century it was looking good but the last 200 years of the Empire were just a tragedy. If there was such things as science, mathmatics, medicine... the Empire wouldn't fall apart.

Nobody fears you because of your history but your current economic and military strenght.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Isnt Ottoman a corruption of the word Ataman??

Osman Ghazi also went by the name Ataman.

Didnt the Ottomans overtime call themselves Devlet ul Alliyye?

Ottoman had a lot of names attached to it. But for me the name Osman comes from the Arabic name Uthman but the word Ottoman must come from the word Ataman.

What find interesting is on various maps of the Europeans the Ottomans were always called Imperium Turcicum which translate to Turkish Empire.

After researching a bit I found below infos.
It says that Osman’s real name was Ataman. It was later changed to Osman To be more inline with Arab names.
As there were no written records by the Ottomans of tha era, the only records were from Byzantine. And they used Ataman name.
Another info states that some Arabic records state that the name of Toman is mentioned. Hence Otttoman??

“osman gazi'nin gerçek adı ataman han'dır ataman han çok eski bir türkçe isimdir. bizans kaynaklarında'da kendisi ataman han olarak geçer. osmanlı'dan da atamanlı olarak bahsedilir. ataman han ın osman'a çevrilmesi' de torunlarının araplara yaranmak istedikleri içindir.”

“osman bey adına basılmış nümizmatik para ve osmanlıca kayıtlı arşiv belgesi yok. elimizde o döneme ait sadece bizans kaynakları var ve bu kaynaklarda osman değil, ataman adı geçiyor.”

Bazı Arap kayıtlarında da “Toman han“ olarak bahsediliyor. Toman, öztürkçe bir isim ve bu gün de Teoman olarak kullanılıyor.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

You know some Turkish historians believe that the Ottomans cause of decline could be because the Sultans no longer lead battles.

Ottomans especially when they grew and became strong had sultans leading the campaigns.

Once that stopped the hunger for expansion and victories slowly went away.

Helmut von Moltke when serving the Ottoman army made a pretty good observation.

Turks under Osman, Orhan, Bayezid and Mehmet II were conquering forts upon forts now today the Turks are content on smoking the hookah pipe.

Ottomans executing some great leaders even commanders made things worse.

You know people find it hard to even forgive Suleyman for executing his son Mustafa. Execution of Mustafa was a crime.

As much I like the Jannisaries but they should have been abolished long ago before 1826.

Nothing more than a bunch of political wagners. Why I say wagners because the Jannisaries largely became a political force with an army.

Can you imagine a turkish political party having an army then deposing or even choosing their leaders?

This is even worse than a military coup lmaoooo

The decline of ottoman empire came with different factors. Nationalism came and splitted the muslims within the empire. When you mention "Once they stopped the hunger to expand more, you remind me of how the andalus empire stopped in the south of france because of issues within the muslim leadership between the arabs and the berbers. In every palace the muslims would write " La ghaliba illah allah" no victoirous except allah, and in the end they lost their religion, and idendity. I read that during the late stages of the ottoman empire that they abolished newspapers. Is that true? I know that the west and especially france used to mock the great sultan abdulhamid with satire.

 

[Tonyukuk]

What made the Ottomans successful (first few hundred years)? Two things.

• Turkic martial tradition
• Gunpowder - the Ottomans used it pretty much before anyone else

What led to the decline of the Ottomans?

• Too many ethnicities within borders
• Failure to adopt science over religion...
• Consequently, failure to industrialise

Simple as that. I've noticed something troubling about all these Ottoman fanboys, they always tout the Ottomans as being powerful because they were Muslim and multi-ethnic, which is a load of crap. Once the Ottoman empire lost its martial capabilities and gunpowder advantage, it became a slowly dying giant. The military prowess of the Anatolian Turks only resurfaced after Gallipoli and the Turkish war of independence. Sad thing is that a lot of these Ottoman fanboys praise the worst Sultans, such as Abdulhamid... It's obvious who these people are and what their agenda is.

 

[Ryder]

The decline of ottoman empire came with different factors. Nationalism came and splitted the muslims within the empire. When you mention "Once they stopped the hunger to expand more, you remind me of how the andalus empire stopped in the south of france because of issues within the muslim leadership between the arabs and the berbers. In every palace the muslims would write " La ghaliba illah allah" no victoirous except allah, and in the end they lost their religion, and idendity. I read that during the late stages of the ottoman empire that they abolished newspapers. Is that true? I know that the west and especially france used to mock the great sultan abdulhamid with satire.

Nationalism also destroyed the Habsburg Empire.

French revolution created the notion of modern day nationalism.

Empires like the Ottomans and the Habsburgs can no longer rule over a wide range of people because a lot of the ethnic groups broke away wanted their own nation.

Thats why we shrunk to what is now modern day Turkey.

Only Russia kept has its empire intact despite losing eastern europe, caucasus, central asia and the baltics.

When nationalism increased among the Christians it spread to the Muslims.

Even the Bosniaks revolted along with the Albanians.

People do not realise the Balkan wars started thanks to the Albanians revolting which Serbia and Greece took advantage of.

Turkic World got swallowed up by Iran, Russia and China.

Only the Ottoman Empire was intact and the Qajars. Qajars were in a much worse state in ww1 Iran became a battlefield between the Ottomans vs the Russians and the British.

Sultan Abdulhamid II like all sultans did his best to keep the empire intact but it was futile because even his succcessors like the Young Turks along with the 3 pashas, Sultan Reshad and Sultan Vahdettin could not overturn the rot of the empire.

I give Sultan Abdulhamid II some credit for decades he tried to keep the empire out of war but it also costed land and territories.

Was he good or was he bad. For me he had both.

Sultan Abdulhamid II would not make my list out of the top 10 Ottoman sultans. I dont agree with the constant overating of him or how he was the worst "ruler".

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Nationalism also destroyed the Habsburg Empire.

French revolution created the notion of modern day nationalism.

Empires like the Ottomans and the Habsburgs can no longer rule over a wide range of people because a lot of the ethnic groups broke away wanted their own nation.

Thats why we shrunk to what is now modern day Turkey.

Only Russia kept has its empire intact despite losing eastern europe, caucasus, central asia and the baltics.

When nationalism increased among the Christians it spread to the Muslims.

Even the Bosniaks revolted along with the Albanians.

People do not realise the Balkan wars started thanks to the Albanians revolting which Serbia and Greece took advantage of.

Turkic World got swallowed up by Iran, Russia and China.

Only the Ottoman Empire was intact and the Qajars. Qajars were in a much worse state in ww1 Iran became a battlefield between the Ottomans vs the Russians and the British.

Sultan Abdulhamid II like all sultans did his best to keep the empire intact but it was futile because even his succcessors like the Young Turks along with the 3 pashas, Sultan Reshad and Sultan Vahdettin could not overturn the rot of the empire.

I give Sultan Abdulhamid II some credit for decades he tried to keep the empire out of war but it also costed land and territories.

Was he good or was he bad. For me he had both.

Sultan Abdulhamid II would not make my list out of the top 10 Ottoman sultans. I dont agree with the constant overating of him or how he was the worst "ruler".

Yh. But we dont have to forget that abdulhamid came probably in one of the worst times but he still tried his best to serve his people. In the end he gave up his position to prevent bloodshed. Many muslims like him because he is one of the late figures of the ottoman empire, and he did not have that much power like his previous predecessors. I love the way he confronted the jews when they wanted him to sell quds, and how he threatened the west when they tried to mock our prophet muhammed saw. I give him credit for that, but unfortanely the young turks movement, and nationalism within the muslim divide the empire.

 

[Ryder]

Yh. But we dont have to forget that abdulhamid came probably in one of the worst times but he still tried his best to serve his people. In the end he gave up his position to prevent bloodshed. Many muslims like him because he is one of the late figures of the ottoman empire, and he did not have that much power like his previous predecessors. I love the way he confronted the jews when they wanted him to sell quds, and how he threatened the west when they tried to mock our prophet muhammed saw. I give him credit for that, but unfortanely the young turks movement, and nationalism within the muslim divide the empire.

Rise of nationalism was even before the Young Turks tookover.

Young Turks wanted to revive the Empire but they failed like all previous ones including Abdulhamid II.

The empire was rotting and dying. There was no chance in saving it.

Also joining ww1 was inevitable it was hard for the Ottoman Empire to keep out of ww1 especially due to Russian ambitions.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Rise of nationalism was even before the Young Turks tookover.

Young Turks wanted to revive the Empire but they failed like all previous ones including Abdulhamid II.

The empire was rotting and dying. There was no chance in saving it.

Also joining ww1 was inevitable it was hard for the Ottoman Empire to keep out of ww1 especially due to Russian ambitions.

Yh way before. Was not the young turk takeover between 1905-1910 if i remember right? Idk about reviving because they had their ambitions, and wanted a constitutional change. Yh the empire was dying, so many different problems, and nationalism just made everything worse. Abdulhamid tried his best to keep it alive but seemed like a impossible job to do. I also realised that many turks hate on the gulf arabs, because they tough the arab backstabbed them. Not everyone backstabbed but yes they did in a way, but everyone was thinking about themselfes at that point. Nationalism became a priority. What we can learn from this is that the only thing that unites the people is the religion. I dont think for example pakistan now wants to be good allies with turkey because they just " Turks", but because of the history,religion, and bond between the people. Hopefully the hole muslim world can unite again in the future, so the thiefs in the world can stop their harrasment on the weak.