Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

Soldier30

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The Russian army used the super-powerful FAB-3000 M-54 bombs for the first time in Ukraine; technical information about them is in the link to the video in the comments to the video. It is worth noting that some believe that a FAB-1500 bomb was used. The bomb was allegedly dropped from a Tu-22M3 bomber; what carrier was used is not reported. The strike was carried out on the temporary deployment point of Ukrainian units in the village of Liptsy, Kharkov region. The deviation of the FAB-3000 bomb from the target was about 15 meters, which is acceptable for bombs of this class.

 

Relic

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You prove to be completely ignorant comparing Hitler and WW2 to the situation in Ukraine, it's like comparing oranges to potato, but I guess you have to tell yourself fairytales to keep backing up your warmongering nature.

Good thing the vast majority of the population of Europe doesn't share your opinion, bad thing is that warmongers like yourself are leaders of many countries in Europe, tho judging from the last horrible defeats in Germany, France etc... they won't be for too long, serves them right for being ignorant like yourself.
Lol again, pure deflection.

Answer the question. Would Switzerland gladly give up 18-20% of their country, including all of land rich in resources, simply to appease an invader?
 

FiReFTW

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Lol again, pure deflection.

Answer the question. Would Switzerland gladly give up 18-20% of their country, including all of land rich in resources, simply to appease an invader?
I can't answer that question because its extremely simplistic and ridicilous, if you knew anything about the conflict about Ukraine and Russia that started A DECADE ago, you would know its not that simple as comparing it to some fictional "invader" that wants to invade your country.

Infact no one scenario is the same, and no war is the same, so you can't make comparisons like that.
It seems like you are victim to the propaganda from your leaders that basically says Russia is pure evil and completely horrible and wrong and Ukraine is a saint and 100% innocent, well thats rubish buddy, things are not black and white.
 

Relic

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I can't answer that question because its extremely simplistic and ridicilous, if you knew anything about the conflict about Ukraine and Russia that started A DECADE ago, you would know its not that simple as comparing it to some fictional "invader" that wants to invade your country.

Infact no one scenario is the same, and no war is the same, so you can't make comparisons like that.
It seems like you are victim to the propaganda from your leaders that basically says Russia is pure evil and completely horrible and wrong and Ukraine is a saint and 100% innocent, well thats rubish buddy, things are not black and white.
If you're going to deflect in a pedantic fashion, answer this then. Would Russia accept Ukraine annexing 18-20% of pre war Russia, including land that holds hundreds of billions (possibly trillions) of dollars worth of natural resources?
 

Relic

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After significant consideration Romania 🇷🇴 has made the important decision to send a Patriot air defense battery to Ukraine. This represents the 7th Patriot Battery that has now been committed and will supplement the two tier 1 SAMP/T batteries that have been committed.

Significant news.

 

Relic

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Germany 🇩🇪 has placed the largest order of artillery shells in its history. They ordered $9.5 Billion usd worth from domedtic producer Rheinmetall. Multi-year deliveries will begin in 2025 and the contract is expected to procure millions of artillery shells, with the idea of restocking the German Army and continuing regular deliveries to Ukraine.

 
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Spitfire9

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I can't answer that question because its extremely simplistic and ridicilous, if you knew anything about the conflict about Ukraine and Russia that started A DECADE ago, you would know its not that simple as comparing it to some fictional "invader" that wants to invade your country.

Infact no one scenario is the same, and no war is the same, so you can't make comparisons like that.
It seems like you are victim to the propaganda from your leaders that basically says Russia is pure evil and completely horrible and wrong and Ukraine is a saint and 100% innocent, well thats rubish buddy, things are not black and white.
When a country's army crosses the border into a neighbouring country, guns blazing, that is known as an invasion. Simplistic? No. Simple? Yes.

I read in a study that 50%+ of the people of Ukraine spoke both Russian and Ukrainian in their homes. That would suggest that there was no great adherence to a single culture in the country. Some of the more deranged Russian nationalists claim that is no such thing as Ukrainian culture exists but at the same time wish to Russify the people and exterminate Ukrainian culture. They must be very adept at doublethink.

If French or German or Italian soldiers cross the border into Switzerland, guns blazing, that is known as an invasion. If it is French soldiers invading Switzerland and French nationalists declare that there is no German, Italian or Romansch culture in Switzerland but German, Italian and Romansch cultures need to be eradicated, they are deranged.

Events leading up to the invasion of Ukraine may have been complex but the 'fictional invader' as you put it has wreaked a vast amount of non-fictitious death and destruction in Ukraine in the last two years.

If you think that Russian soldiers in Ukraine are not invaders, what do you think they are? A bit more doublethink might be needed to formulate an answer.
 

contricusc

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Good thing the vast majority of the population of Europe doesn't share your opinion, bad thing is that warmongers like yourself are leaders of many countries in Europe, tho judging from the last horrible defeats in Germany, France etc... they won't be for too long, serves them right for being ignorant like yourself.

Good thing that the vast majority of Europe is not made of countries like Switzerland, Austria or Hungary, where Putinist propaganda has brainwashed people at a large scale.

People in Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, Netherlands or the UK are much better informed when it comes to Russia and they know who we’re dealing with, so they support arming Ukraine until Russia is defeated.

As for the horrible defeats you mention, in Germany the party who won the election is CDU, the party of Ursula von der Leyen (very pro Ukraine) and Friedrich Merz (also very pro Ukraine).

Putinists still dream that if someone like Le Pen would win in France it would turn against Ukraine and pro Russia, but they forget that they had the same wet dreams about Meloni in Italy, only to see her being much more pro-Ukraine than her predecessor.

The good thing is that European leaders are better informed than some people in the public who live in Russian propaganda bubbles and believe Putin’s lies about the conflict.

Europe will help Ukraine until Russia is defeated and withdraws from the occupied territories, no matter what some indoctrinated people believe or hope. And after the war is over, Ukraine will also join NATO and will start the process of joining the EU.
 

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The United States 🇺🇲 has now decided to stop the transfer of all Patriot Systems and interceptors and NASAMS interceptors to foreign purchasers until Ukraine has what it needs to defend itself from Russian missile strikes. Scheduled deliveries for the foreseeable future will all be re-routed to Ukraine.

President Biden said the following:

"Everything we have is going to go to Ukraine until their needs are met,” Mr. Biden said. “And then we will make good on the commitments we made to other countries.”

For those interested, Patriot and NASAMS interceptors include...

PAC-2 GEM missiles
PAC-3 MSE missiles
AIM-120 AMRAAM
AIM-9X Sidewinder

Current productions rates for those missiles are as follows (annually):

PAC GEM / PAC 3 MSE: 500
AIM-9X: 2500
AIM-120: 1200

Note: Patriot Missile production is actually higher because Japan 🇯🇵 has been licensed to build PAC-2 missiles, however, we have clue how many missiles they are producing.

 

UkroTurk

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Welcome 🇰🇷💪🏻🇺🇦

IMG_20240621_152248_505.jpg

The South Korean presidential administration proposes to supply Ukraine with 155-mm artillery shells, air defense systems and other weapons in response to Russia’s military rapprochement with the DPRK - Yonhap.

Earlier, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Korea summoned the Russian Ambassador to Seoul, Georgy Zinoviev, and expressed his protest to him in connection with the conclusion of an agreement on a comprehensive strategic partnership between Russia and the DPRK.
 

Spitfire9

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One of Ukraine's problems: shortage of shells
Result of Putin's accord with King Jong Un: more shells for Ukraine
 

Gary

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Not that easy, whatever short term aid SK gave to Ukraine, am sure Putin will retaliate by making Long Term pain for Seoul.

How about a few nuclear warhead for Pyongyang as gift?
 

Iskander

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One of Ukraine's problems: shortage of shells
Result of Putin's accord with King Jong Un: more shells for Ukraine
Putin's consent...King Kim Jong-un...shortage of shells...
Have you noticed another shortage here?
Gary is missing! He hasn't been seen anywhere since yesterday. Strange, this has never happened before. This morning I read that a man was swallowed by a python in Indonesia! Gary hasn't been here since yesterday :cry:
Coincidence???
Ga -ry - ry - y - y ! Where are you?
Co - o - o - o - me ba - a - a - ck!!!
 
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Afif

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Putin's consent...King Kim Jong-un...shortage of shells...
Have you noticed another shortage here?
No, Gary! He hasn't been seen anywhere since yesterday. Strange, this has never happened before. This morning I read that a man was swallowed by a python in Indonesia! Gary hasn't been here since yesterday :cry:
Coincidence???
Ga -ry - ry - y - y ! Where are you?
Come back!!!

Nah, he is okay. @Gary won't go down that easy. He is just above you.
 

FiReFTW

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If you're going to deflect in a pedantic fashion, answer this then. Would Russia accept Ukraine annexing 18-20% of pre war Russia, including land that holds hundreds of billions (possibly trillions) of dollars worth of natural resources?


When a country's army crosses the border into a neighbouring country, guns blazing, that is known as an invasion. Simplistic? No. Simple? Yes.

I read in a study that 50%+ of the people of Ukraine spoke both Russian and Ukrainian in their homes. That would suggest that there was no great adherence to a single culture in the country. Some of the more deranged Russian nationalists claim that is no such thing as Ukrainian culture exists but at the same time wish to Russify the people and exterminate Ukrainian culture. They must be very adept at doublethink.

If French or German or Italian soldiers cross the border into Switzerland, guns blazing, that is known as an invasion. If it is French soldiers invading Switzerland and French nationalists declare that there is no German, Italian or Romansch culture in Switzerland but German, Italian and Romansch cultures need to be eradicated, they are deranged.

Events leading up to the invasion of Ukraine may have been complex but the 'fictional invader' as you put it has wreaked a vast amount of non-fictitious death and destruction in Ukraine in the last two years.

If you think that Russian soldiers in Ukraine are not invaders, what do you think they are? A bit more doublethink might be needed to formulate an answer.


I will try to be as clear as possible, as to not be accussed of deflecing answers (apparently when you receive a question in an extremely dumbed down version that takes nothing into account so its impossible to answer its deflecting).

Saying if you would accept someone invading switzerland and wanting x amount of land is such an extremely simplistic point of view that its just crazy to me how you can even mention or compare that, it has absolutely no resemblence or bearing on the situation in Ukraine.

Most of you people that are so PRO this war and think so highly of Ukraine and yet have this hate towards Russia are seemingly extremely blind to the fact that Ukraine was part of Russia, or better said part of the Soviet Union.

You always seem to paint this innocent picture of a poor little ukraine and poor little people being attacked by the evil and mean Russia.
But you fail to aknowledge that Ukraine is cut from the same cloth as Russia, and its an extremely corrupt and dirty country no matter how you spin it with your rose colored glasses.

All of you pro war people always seem to forget to mention in your arguments that it was the Ukranian armed forces that shelled and bombed Donbass and Luhansk extensively since the conflict began in 2014, and there have been several human rights violations including attacking civilist targets, torture etc...

How about we start there? Is that acceptable? And how can Ukraine be viewed as good after that? Its not good, its corrupt and dirty, its the same as Russia.

Donbass and Luhansk are extremely pro russia with a vast majority of the population being Russian and have even more hate towards Ukraine after what happened after 2014. How about we mention that? Those are all important things to aknowledge.

It was Ukraine who commited horrible crimes and supressed the people there, keep that in mind.

So does Ukraine deserve to get Donbass or Luhansk back? No.

I could write 10 pages of this but im trying to make it short.

Did Russia invade Ukraine to save the poor people of Donbass and Luhansk from Ukranian shelling and attacks and opression? No of course not, it played a factor in it, it made sense and it provided a good reason and excuse to do it, but the main objective and reason was another one of course, more strategic.

Russia wants to destroy the Ukranian goverment, probably wants a lot more chunk of Ukranian land and also install a puppet goverment in the land that does remain ukranian and a buffer zone from NATO.

Is that good or positive? No of course not, I am completely against it and they do not deserve to get that.

But is Ukraine getting back Donbass and Luhansk good or positive? Nope, im completely against that also, in my opinion these regions should be independant of either Ukraine OR Russia if I had a say in it.


Now as I said before saying if you will accept an invader to get 20% of your land was a very simplistic and pretty ignorant statement comparing these two scenarios because they are completely different, however...

Whatever the scenario might be, giving up land or some other things in turn for peace, end of bloodshell etc.... IS A VIABLE AND GOOD CHOICE... depending on circumstances.

If you are vastly stronger and know you can deal lethal blows to the invader OBVIOUSLY you will not do that.

But if the opponent has VASTLY more resources and manpower and you know you are fighting a losing battle, its a good idea to cut your losses.

Ukraine is only getting weaker and weaker as the war drags on, no matter what you hopeful bunch think or wish or want or no matter how many posts you open Relic about new "equipment" that the west is sending.

Russia has vastly more manpower, industry, everything.. and Ukraine is running out of manpower fast... a big chunk of the young male population already fled the country, and they are losing more and more of the young men who ARE LEFT in the country.

Russia might lose a ton more people and equipment but they have a HUGE advantage in numbers and their leader (putin) is fanatical and he will never ever cut his losses and quit even if it means fighting to the last men (obviously that won't happen but just saying).

Since I already said that Donbass and Luhansk should not be Ukranian in my opinion, Ukraine at this moment actually has a good position, if they end up negotiating a peace losing only Donbass and Luhansk that would be just great, and end the bloodshell, so thats exactly what im saying here and have said for a long time.

Don't be a victim of propaganda (Russia is running out of tanks, out of ammo, out of troops, out of helmets, out of missiles ... article june 2022 lol)... be realistic... The longer the war drags on the worse it will be for Ukraine and the worst its position will be in negotiations.

Yes, the longer the war drags on the more troops and equipment Russia will lose, which I guess is good for people in the west and people who hate russia and want to see it as worst as possible... but the longer the war goes on, the more PEOPLE Ukraine losses, they are dying and dying... If this war goes on for many many many more years, Ukraine will be completely destroyed from a future perspective because most of the young population will be dead.

Negotiations are the best thing Ukraine can do, and anyone who says otherwise simply does not have Ukraine's best interests in this or its people.

And before you claim another obscurity like ive heard before here....
Giving up Donbass and Luhansk and getting a peace and end of war does not mean Russia has time to build up and make another invasion, no.... absolutely not... im talking about peace where there will be no possibility of that happening, end of war and peace but NATO brigades moving into Ukraine, Ukraine becoming eligible to join EU and NATO etc etc... 0% chance of any more war.
 

Spitfire9

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I have not been able to find out what the situation was in Donbas between 1991 and 2014. I believe that in a referendum after the USSR ceased to exist the vast majority in Donbas chose to remain part of Ukraine. When and how that changed, I do not know.

The quickest way to end an ongoing, stalemated conflict where one country has attacked its neighbour is for the invader to go home. Russia, of all places, should understand that the people of the territory occupied by an invading army are likely to resist, just as they did in Russia 1941-1944.
 

Relic

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Welcome 🇰🇷💪🏻🇺🇦

View attachment 68810
The South Korean presidential administration proposes to supply Ukraine with 155-mm artillery shells, air defense systems and other weapons in response to Russia’s military rapprochement with the DPRK - Yonhap.

Earlier, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Korea summoned the Russian Ambassador to Seoul, Georgy Zinoviev, and expressed his protest to him in connection with the conclusion of an agreement on a comprehensive strategic partnership between Russia and the DPRK.
It's good to hear the South Koreans 🇰🇷 start to change their talking points, it's step one in getting an imporant weapons producer on board with direct transfer of weapons to Ukraine. That said, there is some constitutionality involved with the rules in their country around sending weapons to war zones. Those would still have to be overcome. There is no doubt about it, however, they have some kit that that Ukrainians would love to get their hands on. Especially their KH179, K55 and K9 howitzers, and a variety of their air defense options.
 

Gary

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Now imagine you are Ukrainian soldier inside a shallow trench somewhere in the contact line. Just one drop of this near you. And if you're lucky to survive in one piece, you are under concussion and in 5 minutes a Russian assault team with tanks is coming at you.

No wonder Ukrainian positions are being seized one by one everyday.

 

contricusc

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Most of you people that are so PRO this war and think so highly of Ukraine and yet have this hate towards Russia are seemingly extremely blind to the fact that Ukraine was part of Russia, or better said part of the Soviet Union.

Ukraine was not part of Russia. The Soviet Union was not Russia. By the same logic, the EU should have rights over the UK, because at one time the UK was part of the EU. And by the same logic, Russia would also have rights over the Baltic states, because they were once part of the Soviet Union.

You always seem to paint this innocent picture of a poor little ukraine and poor little people being attacked by the evil and mean Russia.
But you fail to aknowledge that Ukraine is cut from the same cloth as Russia, and its an extremely corrupt and dirty country no matter how you spin it with your rose colored glasses.

You don’t have the right to invade another country just because it is as corrupt as you are. Internal corruption problems are not a reason for a country to be invaded.

All of you pro war people always seem to forget to mention in your arguments that it was the Ukranian armed forces that shelled and bombed Donbass and Luhansk extensively since the conflict began in 2014, and there have been several human rights violations including attacking civilist targets, torture etc...

Donetsk and Luhansk were Ukrainian provinces (don’t confiuse Donbass with Donetsk, Donbass refers to both provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk), so what happened there was a matter of internal Ukrainian politics. However, Russia got involved by sending troops and arming separatists, so Ukraine had no other option but to retaliate and try to quell the armed rebellion that was instigated by a foeign country.

There would have been no conflict and no bloodshed in the Donbass if Russia didn’t interfere in Ukraine’s internal politics by encouraging separatists to rebel, arming them and sending unmarked troops to support them. The war in the Donbass was started by Russia, not by Ukraine, so again, all the bloodshed was caused by Putin’s actions.

How about we start there? Is that acceptable? And how can Ukraine be viewed as good after that? Its not good, its corrupt and dirty, its the same as Russia.

I started there and corrected your misconception about how the conflict started. Yes, Ukraine was in its own right to defend against armed separatists who were receuiving help from a hostile foreign government. Any country would defend its territorial integrity if a hostile foreign country would instigate an armed rebellion.

There is nothing corrupt and dirty about trying to defend your land.

Donbass and Luhansk are extremely pro russia with a vast majority of the population being Russian and have even more hate towards Ukraine after what happened after 2014. How about we mention that? Those are all important things to aknowledge.

Again, you are confusing Donbass with Donetsk, but bisides that, the population in those provinces didn’t have the chance to express its position in a peaceful referendum. What happened there is that some hardcore Russia suporters were armed by Russia and tried to overthrow the local authorities through force. This was a local putch, and it was the duty of the authorities in Kyiv to send the army and liberate the provinces.

The people in the Donbass were not asked in a democratic fashion to express their opinion about wanting independence or not, like the people of Scotland were. There is a high chance that they would had voted to remain in Ukraine (the only referendum that happened there was the one in 1991 when they voted for Ukraine independence).

But Russia just sent troops and armed its agents in the Donbass, and took power through force.

What do you think the UK would do if Russia was arming Scottish separatists, and suddenly those separatists would take the Scottish parliament by force, and declare Scotland an independent People’s Republic? Do you think they would say “well, the Scotts always wanted independence, so let them be”? Or do you think they would act just like Ukraine did, and send the army to arrest the rebels and condemn them for high treason and insurrection, while liberating the other people in Scotland who never chose to be led by an armed junta?

It was Ukraine who commited horrible crimes and supressed the people there, keep that in mind.

Ukraine just responded to the crimes started by Russia. The illigal putch started by pro-Russian separatists armed by Moscow is what started the set of unfortunate events where people on both sides commited horrible crimes, like it always happens in wars.

So does Ukraine deserve to get Donbass or Luhansk back? No.

Yes it does, as the Donbass is part of Ukraine as recognized by the UN charter, and there has never been an independent and legal referendum giving independence to those territories. Those territories separated illegally from Ukraine by armed insurrection supported by a foreign hostile government. There is nothing acceptable about that.

Did Russia invade Ukraine to save the poor people of Donbass and Luhansk from Ukranian shelling and attacks and opression? No of course not, it played a factor in it, it made sense and it provided a good reason and excuse to do it, but the main objective and reason was another one of course, more strategic.

At least you agree that Russia didn’t want to save anybody. What you miss here is that Russia instigated the events in the Donbass, and the Ukrainian shelling was a direct consequence of Russia‘s actions. The people in the Donbass would have been fine and safe if Russia didn’t interfere in Ukraine’s internal affairs in the first place.

But is Ukraine getting back Donbass and Luhansk good or positive? Nope, im completely against that also, in my opinion these regions should be independant of either Ukraine OR Russia if I had a say in it.

It would be very good if Ukraine gets back the Donbass (Donetsk and Luhansk provinces), as well as the occupied territories from the Kherson and Zaporizhzhya provinces. Restoring the UN recognized borders of Ukraine is the first step towards achieving peace and towards discouraging aggressive countries from pursuing border changes through military conflict.

You are against that because you don’t care about international law, the consequences of it collapsing, and you are missinformed about the events in the Donbass that led to the conflict, and the people culpable for it.

The Russian propaganda has worked hard to convince people like you that the Donbass conflict was started by Ukraine, when it was Russia who started the conflict in 2014 by arming the rebels and sending its own unmarked troops to support them in taking over the legal institutions of the Ukrainian state in the region.

Whatever the scenario might be, giving up land or some other things in turn for peace, end of bloodshell etc.... IS A VIABLE AND GOOD CHOICE... depending on circumstances.

The circumstances in this situation make in not a good option, because Russia will get more aggressive if it is rewarded with land for its crimes.

If you are vastly stronger and know you can deal lethal blows to the invader OBVIOUSLY you will not do that.

But if the opponent has VASTLY more resources and manpower and you know you are fighting a losing battle, its a good idea to cut your losses.

Ukraine is only getting weaker and weaker as the war drags on, no matter what you hopeful bunch think or wish or want or no matter how many posts you open Relic about new "equipment" that the west is sending.

Russia has vastly more manpower, industry, everything.. and Ukraine is running out of manpower fast... a big chunk of the young male population already fled the country, and they are losing more and more of the young men who ARE LEFT in the country.

You are wrong again here. Ukraine is backed by the wealthiest and most powerful countries on Earth, so Russia has no chance to win a long term war as long as Ukraine continues to receive its support. Why would the EU and the US give up and allow Russia to win, when they can easily continue their help until Russia’s economy collapses and Russia’s inventory of Soviet equipment is completely drained?

Russia might lose a ton more people and equipment but they have a HUGE advantage in numbers and their leader (putin) is fanatical and he will never ever cut his losses and quit even if it means fighting to the last men (obviously that won't happen but just saying).

Russia is able to lose so much equipment because it has huge stocks of Soviet weapons. They are refurbishing Soviet tanks and IFVs at a fast pace, but once their stocks get depleted, their military industrial capacity will be hugely reduced, and they won’t be able to replace the losses on the battlefield. Russia can’t replace their equipment losess forever at the current pace of the conflict. Once their equipment quantity dwindles, the tide of war will turn in Ukraine’s favor, and no ammount of infantry without tanks will help them win the conflict.

Since I already said that Donbass and Luhansk should not be Ukranian in my opinion, Ukraine at this moment actually has a good position, if they end up negotiating a peace losing only Donbass and Luhansk that would be just great, and end the bloodshell, so thats exactly what im saying here and have said for a long time.

Right now, Russia occupies not only Donetsk and Luhansk, but also large portions of the Zaporizhzhya and Kherson regions. Should Ukraine give up on those too?

Don't be a victim of propaganda (Russia is running out of tanks, out of ammo, out of troops, out of helmets, out of missiles ... article june 2022 lol)... be realistic... The longer the war drags on the worse it will be for Ukraine and the worst its position will be in negotiations.

You are the victim of Russian propaganda, considring your beliefs that Ukraine started the war.

And it is inevitable that Russia will be unable to support the huge losses forever if they continue at the current pace. Russia’s military output will decline once the Soviet stockpiles ae exhausted, while Europe’s and the US’s output is just being ramped up. Things are not looking bright for Putin and his ilk.

Yes, the longer the war drags on the more troops and equipment Russia will lose, which I guess is good for people in the west and people who hate russia and want to see it as worst as possible... but the longer the war goes on, the more PEOPLE Ukraine losses, they are dying and dying... If this war goes on for many many many more years, Ukraine will be completely destroyed from a future perspective because most of the young population will be dead.

While the war is terrible for Ukraine, they have no better option, and they want to take advantage of the huge support they receive from the US and the EU in their existential fight against Russian oppression.

Ukraine never had a better chance at liberating itself from Russian slavery than what they have now, when many rich and powerful countries support them with high tech military equipment, and they won’t waste this opportunity. Let the Ukrainians decide if they want to settle for an unjust peace, or if they want to liberate their land by continuing the war. As long as they want to continue the fight, I am all for supporting them in their just cause.

Negotiations are the best thing Ukraine can do, and anyone who says otherwise simply does not have Ukraine's best interests in this or its people.

It is the Ukrainians who will decide what is best for them. So far, they have refused to negotiate with Putin, so they don’t agree with your opinion.

And before you claim another obscurity like ive heard before here....
Giving up Donbass and Luhansk and getting a peace and end of war does not mean Russia has time to build up and make another invasion, no.... absolutely not... im talking about peace where there will be no possibility of that happening, end of war and peace but NATO brigades moving into Ukraine, Ukraine becoming eligible to join EU and NATO etc etc... 0% chance of any more war.

Why not take back the Donbas before that? NATO countries have the resources to support Ukraine until it wins the war, and Ukraine has the will to fight. Why give up to a Russia that is slowly collapsing economically and has reached new lows in its international standing?
 

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