Ukraine Navy Ukranian Corvette Project: Ada Class

[Philips]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425004009396527123

@DefenceU announced to the Ukrainian press the weapons that will be integrated into the 4 MILGEM corvettes to be built:

*VL MICA mid-range SAM
*Oto Melara SR 76mm naval cannon
*Millenium 35mm CIWS
*ASELSAN STAMP 12.7mm stabilized weapon system
*Harpoon anti-ship missile
*MU90 torpedo

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1425004009396527123

@DefenceU announced to the Ukrainian press the weapons that will be integrated into the 4 MILGEM corvettes to be built:

*VL MICA mid-range SAM
*Oto Melara SR 76mm naval cannon
*Millenium 35mm CIWS
*ASELSAN STAMP 12.7mm stabilized weapon system
*Harpoon anti-ship missile
*MU90 torpedo

Original source:

The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine has provided an official response on the composition of armaments to be installed on the new Ada-class corvettes, the first of which has already begun to be built at the request of the Ukrainian Armed Forces

Thus, in response to a request from Radio Svoboda on July 28, this year. to provide information on the multi-purpose corvettes of the Ada project, a list of armaments of Turkish ships was sent, which does not contain any Ukrainian samples.

In particular, the American RGM-84 Harpoon complex is to be installed and purchased as the main strike anti-ship weapon, and torpedoes (324-mm) with Murene 90 Impact anti-submarine torpedoes are planned to be used against enemy boats.

Read also: What will arm the British boats for the Navy: new details of the project became known

The crew is to protect the VL MIKA anti-aircraft missile system from air threats from air threats, and the ship's main artillery will be the "classic" 76-mm OTO Melara Super Rapid.

OTO Melara Super Rapid guns are a kind of world bestseller of its class and are installed on virtually all modern ships of the corvette and frigate class.

Even additional artillery armament is provided in the form of a 35-mm rapid-fire automatic ship anti-aircraft gun Oerlikon Millennium and remotely controlled Aselsan STAMP 12.7-mm machine gun modules.


Placement of the RIM-116 air defense system and Aselsan STAMP remote modules on the Ada corvette of the initial project

It will be recalled that at the beginning of this year, former Deputy Defense Minister Oleksandr Myronyu described a similar list of new corvettes, but with the potential to equip them with Ukrainian weapons.

"Ukrainian" Ada will have a different from the "classic" Turkish corvettes air defense system MICA

"Ada corvettes for Ukraine provide for the maximization of the use of anti-ship missiles. First of all, of course, it is our Ukrainian" Neptune ", but also the American Harpoon, Turkish Atmaca, Norwegian Naval Strike Missile and other missiles that are currently being developed," said Alexander Mironyuk in February this year

Від кулемета до ПКР: названо перелік озброєння для першого корвету для ВМС України (відео) | Defense Express

Міністерство оборони України надало офіційну відповідь щодо складу озброєння, яке повинні встановити на нові корвети класу Ada, перший з яких вже почали будувати на замовлення ВМСУ

defence-ua.com

 

[Anmdt]

Original source:

The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine has provided an official response on the composition of armaments to be installed on the new Ada-class corvettes, the first of which has already begun to be built at the request of the Ukrainian Armed Forces

Thus, in response to a request from Radio Svoboda on July 28, this year. to provide information on the multi-purpose corvettes of the Ada project, a list of armaments of Turkish ships was sent, which does not contain any Ukrainian samples.

In particular, the American RGM-84 Harpoon complex is to be installed and purchased as the main strike anti-ship weapon, and torpedoes (324-mm) with Murene 90 Impact anti-submarine torpedoes are planned to be used against enemy boats.

Read also: What will arm the British boats for the Navy: new details of the project became known

The crew is to protect the VL MIKA anti-aircraft missile system from air threats from air threats, and the ship's main artillery will be the "classic" 76-mm OTO Melara Super Rapid.

OTO Melara Super Rapid guns are a kind of world bestseller of its class and are installed on virtually all modern ships of the corvette and frigate class.

Even additional artillery armament is provided in the form of a 35-mm rapid-fire automatic ship anti-aircraft gun Oerlikon Millennium and remotely controlled Aselsan STAMP 12.7-mm machine gun modules.


Placement of the RIM-116 air defense system and Aselsan STAMP remote modules on the Ada corvette of the initial project

It will be recalled that at the beginning of this year, former Deputy Defense Minister Oleksandr Myronyu described a similar list of new corvettes, but with the potential to equip them with Ukrainian weapons.

"Ukrainian" Ada will have a different from the "classic" Turkish corvettes air defense system MICA

"Ada corvettes for Ukraine provide for the maximization of the use of anti-ship missiles. First of all, of course, it is our Ukrainian" Neptune ", but also the American Harpoon, Turkish Atmaca, Norwegian Naval Strike Missile and other missiles that are currently being developed," said Alexander Mironyuk in February this year

Від кулемета до ПКР: названо перелік озброєння для першого корвету для ВМС України (відео) | Defense Express

Міністерство оборони України надало офіційну відповідь щодо складу озброєння, яке повинні встановити на нові корвети класу Ada, перший з яких вже почали будувати на замовлення ВМСУ

defence-ua.com

Looks like the first two hulls of the class will be quite close to Turkish Ada-Class (RIM-116), to be honest their plans are exactly same as i have seen with no VLS space allocated, i don't know if those blocks of the hull will be changed later since their steel-cutting has not been commenced yet and they are prone to change.

If the assumption above is true, then the latter two will be made by combination of MICA + Oerlikon Miilenium Gun.

And other 4 will be made by Ukranian contribution as a joint project, similar to PN Milgem which IP rights are being transferred and probably span up to 2030 and will be entirely made in Ukraine. There are also rumors that they have been interested in Atmaca AShM and more Turkish components but couldn't get an agreement on certain matters.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Looks like the first two hulls of the class will be quite close to Turkish Ada-Class (RIM-116), to be honest their plans are exactly same as i have seen with no VLS space allocated, i don't know if those blocks of the hull will be changed later since their steel-cutting has not been commenced yet and they are prone to change.

If the assumption above is true, then the latter two will be made by combination of MICA + Oerlikon Miilenium Gun.

And other 4 will be made by Ukranian contribution as a joint project, similar to PN Milgem which IP rights are being transferred and probably span up to 2030 and will be entirely made in Ukraine. There are also rumors that they have been interested in Atmaca AShM and more Turkish components but couldn't get an agreement on certain matters.

Propulsion and transmission already imported. If they don't buy the electronics from us, why do we enter the tender, we fill the slipways in our talented shipyards for nothing. The money that the country will earn from the ships in this project will not exceed the profit margin for the cargo and fishing vessels produced for nordic countries in our private shipyards.

 

[LegionnairE]

@Anmdt why Millenium instead of Gökdeniz though? Why MICA instead of ESSM?

They make some interesting choices.

 

[Turko]

I've watched the video. They found some "so called experts" who critized Corvettes.
They claimed" Ukraine doesn't need Corvettes since Ukrainian territorial waters are limited in the Black Sea. They also offered mosquito fleet consist of fast attack boats.
The "experts" prefer 2-4 FAC rather than one Corvette. Because russians have air base in the Crimie with strong air strike capabilities .

They claimed Russian Federation air force can make salvo of 300 missiles so they don't want to sacrifice a big Corvette. In their opinion a mosquito fleet consist of a lot of warships can stop Russian Navy.

Bizim sınırlarımıza yaklaşan savaş gemileri korksun, bizim kocaman gemilerimiz Karadenizin ortasında korkmasın dediler. Karadeniz'de Odessa bölgesinden öteye geçemiyor ukrayna.rus blokajı var. Korvetler çok büyük ve gereksiz diyorlar.



korksun,

In addition they told : corvettes need bigger and complicated ports, maintenance, more crew .

 

[Steel]

Propulsion and transmission already imported. If they don't buy the electronics from us, why do we enter the tender, we fill the slipways in our talented shipyards for nothing. The money that the country will earn from the ships in this project will not exceed the profit margin for the cargo and fishing vessels produced for nordic countries in our private shipyards.

I hope we will sell radar, esm, cms, fcs, and electro optic systems. It seems we can barely profit. But milgem is to gain popularity, which is also necessary for us.

 

[Test7]

I've watched the video. They found some "so called experts" who critized Corvettes.
They claimed" Ukraine doesn't need Corvettes since Ukrainian territorial waters are limited in the Black Sea. They also offered mosquito fleet consist of fast attack boats.
The "experts" prefer 2-4 FAC rather than one Corvette. Because russians have air base in the Crimie with strong air strike capabilities .

They claimed Russian Federation air force can make salvo of 300 missiles so they don't want to sacrifice a big Corvette. In their opinion a mosquito fleet consist of a lot of warships can stop Russian Navy.

Bizim sınırlarımıza yaklaşan savaş gemileri korksun, bizim kocaman gemilerimiz Karadenizin ortasında korkmasın dediler. Karadeniz'de Odessa bölgesinden öteye geçemiyor ukrayna.rus blokajı var. Korvetler çok büyük ve gereksiz diyorlar.



korksun,

In addition they told : corvettes need bigger and complicated ports, maintenance, more crew .

We appreciate your ukrainian translation. We wonder what the relevant country thinks about the products..

 

[Turko]

We appreciate your ukrainian translation. We wonder what the relevant country thinks about the products..

You are welcome. I think the video is just provocative to be watched. The channel is not important. Nonetheless their so called experts are great.

IMO Ukrainian "experts" missed the seekeeping capabilities of the corvettes against little warships.

İn addition, they see the corvettes not just Turkish product, they consider them as UkroTurk because the construction work will be shared 50/50.

 

[Turko]

@Anmdt why Millenium instead of Gökdeniz though? Why MICA instead of ESSM?

They make some interesting choices.

I don't want to seem answering for @Anmdt but in my humble opinion the answer is integration with EU.

Note that Ukraine can produce Neptune Antiship missiles but they will put on it Harpoons.

Regarding MiCA I'd say , the dimensions and price of missiles and VLS dominates.

I think VLS of mica is much more cheaper than ESSM's VLS however you couldnt fit mk48 vls on ADA -class if it were cheap.

 

[Anmdt]

@Anmdt why Millenium instead of Gökdeniz though? Why MICA instead of ESSM?

They make some interesting choices.

ESSM vs MICA is rather about who is willing to sell VLS (+ MICA has much shorter canister and VL tubes and making it available to Ada-Class with ease). Ukraine has looked for European missiles for awhile even on their domestic design and they didn't will to provide the missiles back then. Once logically might expect British missiles as well (CAMM) ,considering how British have been involving in Ukraine to boost their defense industry.

Their earlier frigate design hosted Aster-15 and Millennium gun already, so their point of view is limited by origin of those.

The second batch is planned for the next step, so there is enough time for that to happen.

 

[TheInsider]

Most of the choices are political. Gökdeniz is better than millennium CIWS. Millennium has a single barrel. If it stops firing you are dead. Double-barrel provides redundancy, on the con side, it also means a bigger system. Single barrel millennium can fire over a thousand rounds but it comes at the cost of MOA and a complicated firing mechanism. It doesn't have its own separate sensors so it can't be operated standalone even the tracking sensor(EO) is optional. It needs data from the sensors on the ship. If somehow they are jammed or disabled you are dead. Gökdeniz has the ability to load both Airburst and HEI ammunition and switch between ammunition types with an automatic linkless ammunition feed mechanism. It can operate at sea state 5.

Atmaca is better than harpoon.
I would have chosen ESSM/ESSM 2/CAMM-ER over VL Mica as I believe ESSM is superior to VL Mica.

uring the Fair, Aselsan also launched the Close-In Weapon System for the GÖKDENİZ Naval Platforms (CIWS), which used to be known as KORKUT-D, one of the latest products of the company’s know-how and experience in the area of air defence.

The GÖKDENİZ CIWS System was designed and manufactured by the cooperation between TÜBİTAK - SAGE and MKEK (Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation) and Aselsan was the Main Contractor of the project. GÖKDENİZ CIWS System was equipped with Airburst Munition (ParM/ATOM) programmed with ‘35mm Mod 95 Airburst Munition’ code by MKEK. The system will enable the most effective air defence against anti-ship guided missiles, Unmanned Air Vehicles (UAV), Aircrafts and Helicopters. It will be efficient against close asymmetrical surface naval threats as well. GÖKDENİZ will be able to conduct target acquisition, identification, tracking and destruction fully autonomously. The 3-Dimensional Search Radar, Fire Control Radar and E/O sensors within the system will enable the efficient utilization of GÖKDENİZ at night and under adverse weather conditions. The system could be operated under the control of an operator and it is also able to fulfil its tasks fully automatically, without requiring the intervention of an operator. With the help of the Automatic Linkless Ammunition Feed Mechanism within the system, munition in two different types could be fed to the system and switching between munition types is possible. GÖKDENİZ demonstrated its capabilities at the ballistic tests conducted in May 2018 with the support of the SSB and the TNFC; a high-speed target aircraft simulating a guided missile attack was fired and crashed during this test.

Utilizing the matured sub-systems of the KORKUT Self Propelled Air Defence Gun System, the serial production deliveries to Turkish Land Forces of which started in March 2019 (3 Weapon System Vehicles and 1 Command Control Vehicle), GÖKDENİZ was adopted to sea conditions during the development process and was brought to a size capable of being installed within the I Class Frigates. Different from KORKUT-D, the barrel of the gun is stabilized at the back of the turret and the swept area was narrowed. The same weapon and ammunition (MKEK/ÇANSAŞ product 35mm KDC-02 automatic gun) is being used by KORKUT and GÖKDENİZ. A total of 200 ammunitions could be carried in the the ammunition boxes at the right and left sides of the front of the GÖKDENİZ CIWS turret. According to the information we received, on account of the smart ammunition utilization, GÖKDENİZ could be effective at lower ammunition different from the other CIWS systems such as the rapid shot Phalanx and Goalkeeper CIWS. It has been mentioned that 200 missiles are sufficient for an average of 5-6 engagements including the supersonic anti-ship guided missile types. In case the ammunition in the boxes runs out, the ammunition feed is actualized simultaneously by two personnel from the lids at the sides. The ammunition could be fed to the turret again in less than a total of 10 minutes in the form of ammunition clips of five pieces.

The indigenous electrical servo systems manufactured by Aselsan are being utilized in GÖKDENİZ. The top part is fully independent from the turret and it is stabilized. The turret is already stabilized. The Automatic Linkless Ammunition Feed System is similar with the one in the KORKUT System. In fact, it is the same sub-system but while KORKUT features a feeder mechanism under the armor without getting out of the vehicle, in GÖKDENİZ the missile feeder mechanism is designed in a way to feed over the turret from the top. The reason behind this is based on the requirement for not allowing penetration to the deck of the ship as not all ships have under-decks available for penetration. For example, the under-deck of the I Class Frigate does not allow penetration.

As all the sub-systems are placed within the turret and since power-related units are located under the turret, GÖKDENİZ CIWS could be easily installed to a surface platform as it also does not require any penetration to the under-body/under-deck. Expressed that it could be installed over the ship and availed directly to utilization, GÖKDENİZ CIWS is capable of operating fully autonomously according to the selected configuration with the MAR-D Search Radar over it as well. MAR-D is the same with the land version, yet there is an increase in the angles of its coverage area. After MAR-D accomplishes its target acquisition, the system tracks the anti-ship guided missiles targeting the ship. Then it utilizes the E/O camera and radar in a hybrid form, heads toward the target and processes the shooting decision. According to the information we gathered, GÖKDENİZ CIWS is integrated to ADVENT and GENESIS CMS, too. One of the two operator consoles on the system is designed in the structure of a remote console integrated to the CMS, and the other is designed in order to be located at the selected region as the own weapon console of GÖKDENİZ. The full control of the system could be accomplished over both consoles.

The data collected by the search radar over GÖKDENİZ could be utilized also for the other weapons over the ship. It is possible to transfer these data to the CMS. The tracking radar could also be used in order to direct another weapon. The system could receive engagement via other radars over the ship with the data provided by the CMS and head towards the target. It could fire the target displayed by the other E/O sensors over the ship. This capability constitutes the most critical feature of GÖKDENİZ compared with other CIWS systems. Moreover, GÖKDENİZ is capable of executing surface naval threat engagement via the radar and E/O radar both over the ship and over itself. In fact, the main reason behind the system’s being named as GÖKDENİZ (SKYSEA) is its capability of engagement to targets in the sky and at sea.

Even though such capability does not exist in our country yet, the utilization of a single barrel, revolver type rotary feeder weapon system as the one used in the Millennium CIWS manufactured by Rheinmetall is possible in the GÖKDENİZ System. In this case, as the single barrel will cover less space, the volume of the turret will be decreased to a certain extent and the weight of the system will be reduced. Although, the presently utilized double barrel KDC-02 automatic gun has certain advantages. The twin gun is critical in terms of redundant operations, the firing continues with the single barrel when the gun is stuck. Another advantage is that the measures should be adopted, and active sensors should be used for the cooling of the drum in the rotary drum weapon systems referred as the revolver type, and this complicates the weapon in terms of operation and maintenance. Though the revolver type is a higher-level weapon as they have a relatively new design and new technology, as the single barrel is excessively heated when fired rapidly, a water-cooling system is required for the barrel. Therefore, from a technological perspective, though it has an older design compared with the single barrel, the revolver type rotary feeder weapon in the Millennium CIWS, the KDC-02 automatic guns proved themselves and they have quite significant advantages in terms of both maintenance echelon and logistics.

 

[Anmdt]

I've watched the video. They found some "so called experts" who critized Corvettes.
They claimed" Ukraine doesn't need Corvettes since Ukrainian territorial waters are limited in the Black Sea. They also offered mosquito fleet consist of fast attack boats.
The "experts" prefer 2-4 FAC rather than one Corvette. Because russians have air base in the Crimie with strong air strike capabilities .

They claimed Russian Federation air force can make salvo of 300 missiles so they don't want to sacrifice a big Corvette. In their opinion a mosquito fleet consist of a lot of warships can stop Russian Navy.

Bizim sınırlarımıza yaklaşan savaş gemileri korksun, bizim kocaman gemilerimiz Karadenizin ortasında korkmasın dediler. Karadeniz'de Odessa bölgesinden öteye geçemiyor ukrayna.rus blokajı var. Korvetler çok büyük ve gereksiz diyorlar.



korksun,

In addition they told : corvettes need bigger and complicated ports, maintenance, more crew .

Get those experts on a boat for a day and leave them in middle of the black-sea or even at the shores and they will see their life going up-side down. , Note the wind is dominant to be on the north and it is still summer.

 

[Anmdt]

It is for sure the Ukranians still have a desire to complete this project, but to take a short-cut they will base their design on Ada-Class. 2 Millenium and 16 MICA is still viable on Ada-Class with slight increase in size and modifications. The latter 4 ship will resemble this design in common, however i doubt if the MICA will be allowed on another CMS/radar suite.
Their interest on Ada-Class has started since they have appointed for assistance, and have realized it costs less and takes less effort compared to completion of their own frigate design and resembles their frigate design (guess why?) in common allowing them to switch.

 

[LegionnairE]

ESSM vs MICA is rather about who is willing to sell VLS (+ MICA has much shorter canister and VL tubes and making it available to Ada-Class with ease). Ukraine has looked for European missiles for awhile even on their domestic design and they didn't will to provide the missiles back then. Once logically might expect British missiles as well (CAMM) ,considering how British have been involving in Ukraine to boost their defense industry.

Their earlier frigate design hosted Aster-15 and Millennium gun already, so their point of view is limited by origin of those.

The second batch is planned for the next step, so there is enough time for that to happen.

It makes a lot of sense, as we have seen on Pakistan's Jinnah class, normal VLS sticks out of the hull quite a bit. Clearly they want to prevent this:

If they are already operating the millenium CIWS on other ships, it also makes sense for them to stick with it. I'm not sure what I would do.

I think this will be the best iteration of Ada class, yet still falling short of İ class.

 

[Turko]

View attachment 27585
It is for sure the Ukranians still have a desire to complete this project, but to take a short-cut they will base their design on Ada-Class. 2 Millenium and 16 MICA is still viable on Ada-Class with slight increase in size and modifications. The latter 4 ship will resemble this design in common, however i doubt if the MICA will be allowed on another CMS/radar suite.
Their interest on Ada-Class has started since they have appointed for assistance, and have realized it costs less and takes less effort compared to completion of their own frigate design and resembles their frigate design (guess why?) in common allowing them to switch.

If we had modular and compact VLS for Hisar A+ like Umkhonto's, we could offer Ukraine turnkey naval Hisar SAM system with reasonable prices. Naval Hisar would be great alternative for humble navies.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

If we had modular and compact VLS for Hisar A+ like Umkhonto's, we could offer Ukraine turnkey naval Hisar SAM system with reasonable prices. Naval Hisar would be great alternative for humble navies.

Hisar Systems is used for area defense. Not agile enough for self defense.

 

[Turko]

Hisar Systems is used for area defense. Not agile enough for self defense.

I think Hisar is as agile as MİCA VL which Ukraine and Egypt have already preferred.

Since customers needs fulfilled with MİCA VL , MBDA doesn't care about functions.

Nonetheless they will also use Millennium CIWS.

 

[TheInsider]

Sure Hisar is not agile with a double pulse engine and thrust vector control system.

 

[Anmdt]

If we had modular and compact VLS for Hisar A+ like Umkhonto's, we could offer Ukraine turnkey naval Hisar SAM system with reasonable prices. Naval Hisar would be great alternative for humble navies.

We should rather field G40/G60 and VL bozdogan/gokdogan as soon as possible. That will give customers more options and will attract with cold launch if it is all about agility.
I don't think the matter here is the agility though, nor the space. Mica can not be quadpacked thus not space-efficient area wise, it is only short and has a short host VLS. In those terms CAMM/CAMM-ER should have been preffered by more operators, so it is morelikely a matter of marketing.

Also mica offers IIR (or maybe even an IR) or RF seeker optionally, CAMM offers only the RF seeker. I can bet some customers seek for a cheap missile by opting for another seeker.