TR Industry, Science and Technology

[Anmdt]

Men, this is E-Commerce time, cargo demands are huge

This is Textron new plane that look like copying N 219

Our MALE drone is almost ready, end of 2021 will have maiden flight inshaAllah

It is about the airliners choice here i think, TAI may not compete in the region unless Turkish Airlines or smaller companies may opt for locally produced ones in return of tax reduction. The ink is primarily about CN235 upgrade.

 

[Indos]

It was in 2018 when two companies engaged into Aksungur to co-develop. And PT DI had stalled it, TAI completed project on their own.
There is no excuses for stalling a promise i think, especially after you have received some support in MALE program.

I will rather wait for the statement of TAI to see it in the all aspects, i don't really think PT DI will be openly admitting they will be receiving some support in the drones.

Moreover, the engineering support is whar British provides to TAI at the moment, right choice of the words would be they will be doing some outsourced jobs, probably in terms of the offset. Also to note, it may be related to CN235 upgrade, not TFX.

From what I know it is Anka and Aksungur that get support from our Wind Tunnel expertise since 2008-2018

TAI perkuat kerja sama pengujian UAV dengan BPPT

Kerja sama dimulai pada saat pengembangan program pesawat terbang tanpa awak (unmanned aircraft vehicle/UAV) ANKA tahun 2008 - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Indos]

It is about the airliners choice here i think, TAI may not compete in the region unless Turkish Airlines or smaller companies may opt for locally produced ones in return of tax reduction. The ink is primarily about CN235 upgrade.

Here the link, read again carefully. About N 219 the interest is from Mexico and Turkey, it is coming from the mouth of high rank N 219 program manager. There is intension from our side to perfect N 219 before other Aerospace industry can produce it under license, but this N 245 program look like mentioning about co-development

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440521718888497159

 

[Anmdt]

From what I know it is Anka and Aksungur that get support from our Wind Tunnel expertise since 2008-2018

TAI perkuat kerja sama pengujian UAV dengan BPPT

Kerja sama dimulai pada saat pengembangan program pesawat terbang tanpa awak (unmanned aircraft vehicle/UAV) ANKA tahun 2008 - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Yes the thing you like to post in everywhere and i like to add "for offset and friendly collaboration". TAI used to work with others back then as well including Germany, and indonesian sources even claimed to help the design, or to design the UAVs yet it was only the tests.
So you are denying TAIs involvement in MALE program?

 

[Indos]

Yes the thing you like to post in everywhere and i like to add "for offset and friendly collaboration". TAI used to work with others back then as well including Germany, and indonesian sources even claimed to help the design, or to design the UAVs yet it was only the tests.
So you are denying TAIs involvement in MALE program?

There is no one said Indonesia contribute on design of ANKA/Aksungur, where do you get it from ? Indonesian shut their mouths for almost 10 years until TAI high rank official said it in Turkish state owned publication (Anadolu), even no Indonesian know about it except people in Aerospace Industry. That Turkish media that revealed it first, and then BPPT publish it on their website.

Can you give the link on TAI involvement in our MALE program since Indonesian side never said it ?

There is intention for cooperation in 2018 as Turkey want to sell Anka, but it doesnt materialize. More like MOU stage.

MALE program has been started since 2015 and you can hear on the video using English auto-translate that wind tunnel test has been conducted since 2016.

 

[Anmdt]

There is no one said Indonesia contribute on design of ANKA/Aksungur, where do you get it from ? Indonesian shut their mouths for almost 10 years until TAI high rank official said it in Turkish state owned publication (Anadolu), even no Indonesian know about it except people in Aerospace Industry. That Turkish media that revealed it first, and then BPPT publish it on their website.

Can you give the link on TAI involvement in our MALE program since Indonesian side never said it ?

There is intention for cooperation in 2018 as Turkey want to sell Anka, but it doesnt materialize. More like MOU stage.

MALE program has been started since 2015 and you can hear on the video using English auto-translate that wind tunnel test has been conducted since 2016.

I remember AA has posted it after some other Indonesian newsmaker, and remember some Indonesians including some of the people from BPPT back then claimed to design the UAVs and assist the design.

In 2018, TAI had signed a collobaration to develop Aksungur, HALE. You may also hear this from PT DI's manager back then, who clearly says they have sufficient knowledge on MALE, admitting TAI has knowledge on HALE and looks forward to develop with TAI.

Yet, TAI has developed the HALE alone and put it into the operational stage.

For the TAIs involvement in the project, it was approved by a reliable person years ago in the Turkish forums.

If MALE has started in 2015 and TAI had been in Indonesia since 2008 for the tests, it pretty much adds up right?

 

[Indos]

I remember AA has posted it after some other Indonesian newsmaker, and remember some Indonesians including some of the people from BPPT back then claimed to design the UAVs and assist the design.

In 2018, TAI had signed a collobaration to develop Aksungur, HALE. You may also hear this from PT DI's manager back then, who clearly says they have sufficient knowledge on MALE, admitting TAI has knowledge on HALE and looks forward to develop with TAI.

Yet, TAI has developed the HALE alone and put it into the operational stage.

For the TAIs involvement in the project, it was approved by a reliable person years ago in the Turkish forums.

If MALE has started in 2015 and TAI had been in Indonesia since 2008 for the tests, it pretty much adds up right?

Well of course the test on Anka and Aksungur will give us valuable data, no argue about it.

Give the link dont just remembering as it is just MOU and hasnt been executed. It was when Indonesia want to buy drone and TAI offer ANKA with some kind of collaboration, later we order China drone

LOL reliable Turkish forumer, he he. Talk with no prove is cheap.

 

[Anmdt]

Well of course the test on Anka and Aksungur will give us valuable data, no argue about it.

Give the link dont just remembering as it is just MOU and hasnt been executed. It was when Indonesia want to buy drone and TAI offer ANKA with some kind of collaboration, later we order China drone

LOL reliable Turkish forumer, he he. Talk with no prove is cheap.

Well you can deny it as you like while it is the obvious one. I think implying reverse engineering is worse too. In the end i know it has happed from some other sources yet i am glad the way TAI respects the confidentiality unlike the counterpart.

Turkey and Indonesia Join Forces on a ‘New’ UAV | AIN

The state-owned aircraft companies in each country are teaming—presumably—to further develop TAI’s existing Anka drone.

www.ainonline.com

That mentioned higher altitude MALE was aksungur, known as anka-II back then.

The co-development was particularly about Aksungur while included sales of Anka and local assembly of it. Turkey-Indonesia at some point decided to co-fund and co-develop the Aksungur. In 2018.

To talk about a co-development i think two companies should have had something brewing since 2015 right.

 

[Indos]

Well you can deny it as you like while it is the obvious one. I think implying reverse engineering is worse too. In the end i know it has happed from some other sources yet i am glad the way TAI respects the confidentiality unlike the counterpart.

Turkey and Indonesia Join Forces on a ‘New’ UAV | AIN

The state-owned aircraft companies in each country are teaming—presumably—to further develop TAI’s existing Anka drone.

www.ainonline.com

That mentioned higher altitude MALE was aksungur, known as anka-II back then.

The co-development was particularly about Aksungur while included sales of Anka and local assembly of it. Turkey-Indonesia at some point decided to co-fund and co-develop the Aksungur. In 2018.

To talk about a co-development i think two companies should have had something brewing since 2015 right.

1, What is reverse engineering ? TAI use BPPT wind tunnel faciity and expertise since 2008-2017 (based on 2017 news from Turkish state owned media and quoted from TAI high rank official). If we use the wind tunnel data for our MALE development is not some thing called as reverse engineering. Data on MALE drone is so limited, unlike passenger planes, so of course the data is valuable for Indonesia as the service provider for Anka and Aksungur wind tunnel test for a decade long.

2. If the co development between DI and TAI on MALE drone really materialize, Indonesia Aerospace and TAI will announce the contract and the development process news will be given to the journalist. There is no such news
beside the news revealing about the program in LOI stage

Do you know the different between LOI, MOU and real contract ? Even no MOU signed on that project. And again that is in 2018 as I stated before where our MALE UCAV program has been started in 2015 and the official video from BPPT said that the first wind tunnel test in 2016, way longer before that cooperation intention.

People just dont give help, there must be contract on any co development. If there is no link on contract then the program is just on LOI or MOU stage.

Just like in KF 21/IFX program, the LOI is in 2009, MOU is in 2010, and contract is in 2011. Then after contract signed we send engineers.

After the contract signed then real cooperation will be made


RI sending KFX jet-fighter production team to South Korea

Senin, 11 Juli 2011 18:22 WIB | 5.150 Views

Jakarta (ANTARA News) - Indonesia is sending a KFX warplane production engineering team to South Korea as part of a cooperation agreement between the two nations to produce jet-fighters, a defense ministry official said here on Monday.

The team is composed of personnel from the Indonesian Air Force, Bandung-based Institute of Technology (ITB) and Indonesian aircraft maker PT Dirgantara Indonesia (DI).

Defense Ministry Secretary General Rear Marshal Erris Heriyanto said the team received an award from Defense Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro here on Monday.

RI sending KFX jet-fighter production team to South Korea

Indonesia is sending a KFX warplane production engineering team to South Korea as part of a cooperation agreement between the two nations to produce ...

en.antaranews.com

More over, Black Eagle MALE UCAV is very different with ANKA and Aksungur,

ANKA

AKSUNGUR

Black Eagle MALE UCAV

 

[Anmdt]

Do you know the different between LOI, MOU and real contract ? Even no MOU signed on that project. And again that is in 2018 as I stated before where our MALE UCAV program has been started in 2015 and the official video from BPPT said that the first wind tunnel test in 2016, way longer before that cooperation intention.

Do you think i don't know difference between LOI, MOI, MOU? The point was they have negotiated up to a stage where TAI commenced the project and then they stalled it, that is the point.

Moreover, you did really assume PT DI to provide engineering support for TFX, but somehow can not admit TAI has provided, much likely, an engineering support for the MALE program? I started to sense you try to belittle TAI so far,even at some point considering them as an aerospace industry of a 3rd world country?

It doesn't have to look like that one, in fact it more looks like Reaper, does it mean they have received assistance from GA if the look is the matter?

What i am telling TAI has assisted MALE project in the beginning in the conceptual stage or even more at the engineeing i am not telling TAI has given ANKA design as base. Is TAI some incompetent company that they may not advise a design indifferent from Anka or Aksungur considering their decade long experience in the MALE drones by 2015?

 

[Indos]

Do you think i don't know difference between LOI, MOI, MOU? The point was they have negotiated up to a stage where TAI commenced the project and then they stalled it, that is the point.

Moreover, you did really assume PT DI to provide engineering support for TFX, but somehow can not admit TAI has provided, much likely, an engineering support for the MALE program?

It doesn't have to look like that one, in fact it more looks like Reaper, does it mean they have received assistance from GA if the look is the matter?

What i am telling TAI has assisted MALE project in the beginning in the conceptual stage or even more at the engineeing i am not telling TAI has given ANKA design as base. Is TAI some incompetent company that they may not advise a design indifferent from Anka or Aksungur?

No I just speculate that TFX program may be among the TAI project that PTDI will give some engineering support, it maybe included but it may be not included, I just speculate, not something like your statement without any prove but strangely you keep insisting.

Aksungur is Turkish project in the beginning, it has nothing to do with Indonesian Aerospace (PTDI). I think Turkish try to get Indonesia to buy Anka drone and for the appealing try to get Indonesia Aerospace to involve in Aksungur program, which later dont work since Indonesia choose to buy 6 drones from China and keep continuing with its drone program that has been started since 2015.

Give me the prove on that bold statement as you keep insisting again and again without any prove, just base on a comment from a Turkish forumer.

About possible Turkish development program where PTDI will give some engineering support, it is not something uncommon as PTDI also offer design expertise to even US aerospace industry as PTDI has office in Seatle, USA

IPTN is old name of Indonesia Aerospace, and IPTN North America is a subsidary company of Indonesia Aerospace (PTDI) located in Seatle, USA

 

[Lool]

Moreover, the engineering support is whar British provides to TAI at the moment, right choice of the words would be they will be doing some outsourced jobs, probably in terms of the offset. Also to note, it may be related to CN235 upgrade, not TFX.

Actually the deal isnt related to the TFX
No offense to the indonesians, but BAE systems hage way more advanced expertise than the Indonesians by several miles. Considering how TAI and the government are hyping the TFX as a cutting edge fighter, I dont think TAI will ask for indonesia's help in that regards.
I did some research and found out that the deal mainly involves around the possibility of co-prodcution of the N-245 plane which is considered as an upgrade and a step up to the CN-235 employed by the Turksih Air force. Apparently, the TSK and TAI wants to nationalise such aircraft.
My question here is why the N-245? Why not better planes? If i remember right, Indonesia had many better planes like the N-2130 or the N-250. I know that such projects were cancelled long ago but why not revive them and work together on such planes
The N-245 seems a bit underwhelming to spend time and resources on tbh

 

[Gary]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440597477099393028

 

[Indos]

Actually the deal isnt related to the TFX
No offense to the indonesians, but BAE systems hage way more advanced expertise than the Indonesians by several miles. Considering how TAI and the government are hyping the TFX as a cutting edge fighter, I dont think TAI will ask for indonesia's help in that regards.
I did some research and found out that the deal mainly involves around the possibility of co-prodcution of the N-245 plane which is considered as an upgrade and a step up to the CN-235 employed by the Turksih Air force. Apparently, the TSK and TAI wants to nationalise such aircraft.
My question here is why the N-245? Why not better planes? If i remember right, Indonesia had many better planes like the N-2130 or the N-250. I know that such projects were cancelled long ago but why not revive them and work together on such planes
The N-245 seems a bit underwhelming to spend time and resources on tbh

Talking about TFX I just said it as possibility since our program with SK is ahead currently, but not sure about it, maybe not happen,

N 245 program is just re-design of CN 235 and intended for civilian market, so there is a modification on the design and it will be much cheaper than designing a plane from a clean sheet.

Well, our hands are now full, there are still N 219 Amphibious, KF21/IFX, MALE UCAV, cruise missile program going on and Indonesian Aerospace involve on all of them. There is R 80 program that is also going on but developed by PT RAI which is made by Habibie family, they have done Preliminary Design Phase but not having enough design engineers for detail design phase and dont have production capability as well, so they want to develop the plane with Indonesia Aerospace. I see that it could become joint development with PTDI after Presidential Election in 2024.

 

[Indos]

Yes you are right, PT DI is superior to TAI thus it is very casual to expect PT DI to give assistance to TAI in TFX, not vice-versa in a MALE program.

Men, I just try to analyse from DI twitter post, you have read it right ? The possible assistance work is official statement from PTDI official twitter account. I just speculate it may also be related to TFX program as we are ahead in Stealth fighter program currently as KF 21 has been in testing phase.

Your MALE UCAV program belief comes from one Turkish forumer statement and I can bring his statement here, he said ANKA based which is absurd if we look on the design between the two, and even it is just a statement without prove (official statement)


According to the information given by HARZEMŞAH, one of the respected members of Turkish defense industry forums:
"TAI's first technology transfer to Indonesia has emerged . Indonesia introduced its ANKA-based UAV "Elang Hitam / Black Eagle". This will be followed soon by the ANKA-Aksungur-based twin engine UAV."
link: https://sadfor.savtera.org/index.php?topic=827.msg72609;topicseen#msg72609

While this assistance on TAI development projects is official but of course we dont know what program and whether it will be materialized or not time that will tell

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440521718888497159

 

[Anmdt]

Aksungur is Turkish project in the beginning, it has nothing to do with Indonesian Aerospace (PTDI). I think Turkish try to get Indonesia to buy Anka drone and for the appealing try to get Indonesia Aerospace to involve in Aksungur program, which later dont work since Indonesia choose to buy 6 drones from China and keep continuing with its drone program that has been started since 2015.

What doesn't work there? Everything was clear contract-wise. Anka's were offered to be bought initially, to be followed by local production if ordered more and eventually a collaboration to develop Aksungur was offered. Is it too hard to admit they had quit the project after it has been commenced?

Your MALE UCAV program belief comes from one Turkish forumer statement and I can bring his statement here, he said ANKA based which is absurd if we look on the design between the two, and even it is just a statement without prove (official statement)

Nope, it also comes from elsewhere.

 

[Anmdt]

While this assistance on TAI development projects is official but of course we dont know what program and whether it will be materialized or not time that will tell

Yes, telling again, who is TAI to give some assistance on a simple MALE program to the PTDI, considering that TAI is a 3rd world country aerospace industries with limited capabilities. Almight PTDI helps TAI in many projects, even may help TFX according to your beliefs.

 

[Indos]

What doesn't work there? Everything was clear contract-wise. Anka's were offered to be bought initially, to be followed by local production if ordered more and eventually a collaboration to develop Aksungur was offered. Is it too hard to admit they had quit the project after it has been commenced?


Nope, it also comes from elsewhere.

There is no contract on Indonesia Aerospace collaboration with TAI, only interest, even this N 219 and N 245 program possible joint cooperation with TAI has been around since several years ago and no actual cooperation ever exist ( since no contract yet ).

If it comes from some elsewhere then provide prove as you can see many of my claims during this debate are provided by many official proves.

This is coming from BPPT head and he stated the program is developed by Indonesians and not mentioning about other country. That is statement coming from BPPT official website

https://www.bppt.go.id/berita-bppt/bppt-luncurkan-prototype-puna-male-elang-hitam

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Men, I just try to analyse from DI twitter post, you have read it right ? The possible assistance work is official statement from PTDI official twitter account. I just speculate it may also be related to TFX program as we are ahead in Stealth fighter program currently as KF 21 has been in testing phase.

The production process of the first prototype of the Tf-X has begun and parts are being produced at present. 18 months to roll-out. The critical design and prototype maturation process will continue until 2025-28 and the first flight will take place in 2025. Improvements will be made with feedback after the flight tests and TfX will be ready for delivery by 2028-2030. These processes are already underway with the active participation of more than 100 BAE engineers so I don't think deal with Indonesia are within the scope of TfX.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I also see the CEO of Havelsan at the signing ceremony. Havelsan offers source code, software and training simulation solutions to flying platforms. Presumably, this signature may covers cooperation on an Indonesian aviation project, not for Turkish programs.