Don’t Assume the US Will Fight China and Russia One at a Time

Bogeyman 

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China and Russia last week conducted their first-ever joint naval patrol in the western Pacific following a combined exercise in the Sea of Japan, highlighting the deepening defense cooperation between America’s preeminent competitors. While U.S. military planners have long hoped and often assumed that any conflicts with China and Russia might come one at a time, that assumption is increasingly questionable and even dangerous.
If the Biden administration is to develop an effective 2022 National Defense Strategy and build the U.S. defense capacity and capability that American interests require, the administration must jettison outdated assumptions and recognize that the United States could confront Chinese and Russian military forces simultaneously.
Anyone skeptical of this claim should consider Joint Sea 2021, an annual combined naval exercise that China and Russia conducted on October 14-17. The Russians contributed an Udaloy-class antisubmarine destroyer, two Steregushchy-class corvettes, two coastal-type minesweepers, a Kilo-class diesel-electric attack submarine, and a missile boat. China sent a Type 055 large destroyer, which reportedly served as the command ship, plus a Type 052D destroyer, two Type 054A frigates, a diesel submarine, and a supply ship. A naval aviation contingent comprising 12 Chinese and Russian fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters also participated. The exercise apparently marked the first time a Chinese heavy destroyer and anti-submarine warfare aircraft have participated in an exercise abroad.
During the exercise’s first stage, the Russian minesweepers escorted the Russian and Chinese warships in the Sea of Japan. The warships then fired artillery at mock floating mines and at a towed target simulating a surface warship. They also practiced air defense, with the opposing force played by Russian Su-30SM multirole fighters and naval helicopters. In a clear indication that both militaries view American submarine capabilities as a leading concern, Russian and Chinese vessels, supported by anti-submarine aircraft, also hunted down and trapped a simulated enemy submarine.


After the exercise was over, the Chinese and Russian warships sailed through the Tsugaru Strait together — another first — before heading down Japan’s eastern coast and back toward China via the Osumi Strait. They were joined by Russia’s Udaloy-class destroyer Admiral Tributs, which Moscow claimed days earlier had chased off the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer USS Chafee for allegedly breaching Russian waters closed for Joint Sea 2021 (an assertion the U.S. Navy disputed). Chinese state media said the combined patrol “sends a warning to Japan as well as the US, which have been rallying allies to confront China and Russia.”
These developments follow another combined exercise this summer that underscored China and Russia’s growing trust and military interoperability. That exercise, Sibu/Interaction-2021, held in north-central China in August, included more than 10,000 troops and marked the first time that Russian forces have participated in a Chinese strategic exercise.
Chinese and Russian forces reportedly operated under a joint command for the first time, using a specially designed “joint command information system.” Russian Su-30SM multirole fighters, motor-rifle troops, and a special forces unit integrated into Chinese formations, training to improve their “joint reconnaissance, search and early warning, electronic information attack, and joint strike” capabilities, per China’s defense ministry. China’s J-20 fifth-generation stealth fighter reportedly made its first appearance in an international exercise. Russian forces operated modern Chinese equipment (ZTL-11 infantry support vehicles and ZBL-08 armored personnel carriers) for the first time, according to the Russian and Chinese defense ministries, after Chinese forces reportedly did the same with Russian equipment at Russia’s Kavkaz-2020 exercise last year.
 

xizhimen

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US can barely be able to take on Afghanistan individually, the best thing US can do is bluffing.
 

Gary

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And we have another member who somehow cant relate why Afghanistan is not by any means a accurate indicator of US military prowess.

Just remember the US never lost a singe conventional war.

Could the US be defeated ? Maybe. But Afghanistan is by no means a comparison. Remember US "defeat" in Vietnam ? What has happened since then ?

Desert storm anyone ?
 

Gary

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Americans themselves admit they lost Vietnam war and Afghan war, cheerleaders may never admit, but Americans do.

Here's an eye opener.

In war there's always two types of victories/losses

1. Military
2. Political

Vietnam is what you call a military success and a political failure, same with that of Afghanistan.

The US never lost a single battle during the 10 years war in Vietnam and the 20 years war in Afghanistan.

It's the US congress and US citizens abrupt change of support to the war that doomed both the RVN and ANA.
 

xizhimen

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Here's an eye opener.

In war there's always two types of victories/losses

1. Military
2. Political

Vietnam is what you call a military success and a political failure, same with that of Afghanistan.

The US never lost a single battle during the 10 years war in Vietnam and the 20 years war in Afghanistan.

It's the US congress and US citizens abrupt change of support to the war that doomed both the RVN and ANA.
You don't have to convince me, try to convince Americans. it's a war they fought.
 

xizhimen

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Vietnam is what you call a military success and a political failure, same with that of Afghanistan.
How many people believe Soviet Union won Afghan war? Wars are never just for the sake of wars, they happened for some purposes, and the purposes are the be all and end all for all wars.
 

Ravenman

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The US has the largest airforce, the largest fleet and the greatest bombstocks in the world.

They can destroy every country from the air, even Russia and China combined.

They always start with bombing the electricity grids, powerplants and watersupplydepots, and then you are game over.
 

xizhimen

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The US has the largest airforce, the largest fleet and the greatest bombstocks in the world.

They can destroy every country from the air, even Russia and China combined.

They always start with bombing the electricity grids, powerplants and watersupplydepots, and then you are game over.
US only knows how to bluff, when was the last time US won a war in Asia?
 

Gary

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EastseaQ77

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The US never lost a single battle during the 10 years war in Vietnam and the 20 years war in Afghanistan.
Operation Linebacker II was the biggest lost for US in Vietnam war leading to the end of US's invasion in VIetnam in 1973.

If US start the war against Indonesia, I bet that your army never can shoot down even a single B-52 , well protected by Wild Weasel

( Wild Weasel is a code name given by the United States Armed Forces, specifically the US Air Force, to an aircraft, of any type, equipped with anti-radiation missiles and tasked with the Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses: destroying the radar and Surface-to-Air Missile installations of enemy air defense systems.[1][2] "The first Wild Weasel success came soon after the first Wild Weasel mission 20 December 1965 when Captains Al Lamb and Jack Donovan took out a site during a Rolling Thunder strike on the railyard at Yen Bai, some 75 miles northwest of Hanoi."[3] . The Wild Weasel concept was developed by the United States Air Force in 1965, after the introduction of Soviet SAMs and their downing of U.S. strike aircraft over the skies of North Vietnam.[4] The program was headed by General Kenneth Dempster.)

An F-4G with WW payload; near to far: AGM-88 HARM, AGM-65 Maverick, ALQ-119 ECM pod, AGM-78 Standard ARM and AGM-45 Shrike, circa 1981.

Operation Linebacker II​


Belligerents
Commanders and leaders
Strength
Casualties and losses
20px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png
United States
20px-Flag_of_North_Vietnam_%281955%E2%80%931976%29.svg.png
North Vietnam
John Dale Ryan[citation needed]
John W. Vogt Jr.[citation needed]
John C. Meyer[1]
Phung The Tai[citation needed]
Le Van Tri[citation needed]
207 B-52s[citation needed]
2,000 tactical aircraft[citation needed]
14 SA-2 batteries[2]
(266 SA-2 missiles were launched during the operation[3])
100+ aircraft[1] (including 31 MiG-21s and 16 MiG-17s fighters[4])
AA gun units
US claim:
12 tactical aircraft shot down
16 B-52s shot down
4 B-52s suffered heavy damage
5 B-52s suffered medium damage
43 killed in action
49 taken prisoner[5]
PAVN claim:
81 aircraft shot down
(including 34 B-52s and 5 F-111s;[6] this includes two B-52s shot down by MiG-21 fighters[7])
U.S. claim: 6 MiG-21s shot down (including 2 MiG-21s shot down by B-52 tail gunners)[1]
PAVN claim: 3 MiG-21s shot down[8]
1,624 civilians killed[9]


The new Prime Minister of Australia, Gough Whitlam, whose country had pushed America to expand the war, angered the Nixon administration by criticizing the bombings in a letter to the U.S. President, chilling United States–Australia relations until Whitlam's dismissal in 1975.[106] In the U.S., Nixon was criticized as a "madman", and some of the people who supported Operation Linebacker I,[who?] questioned the necessity and unusual intensity of Operation Linebacker II.[107] Newspaper headlines included: "Genocide", "Stone-Age Barbarism" and "Savage and Senseless".[108] The USAF Strategic Air Command (SAC) made some serious mistakes, suffered serious losses and their campaign came close to failure, yet after the war they launched a massive media and public relations blitz (and internal witch hunt) to prove that Linebacker II was an unqualified success that unfolded as planned.[109] US officials claimed that the operation had succeeded in forcing North Vietnam's Politburo to return to negotiating, citing the Paris Peace Accords signed shortly after the operation

 

Gary

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Operation Linebacker II was the biggest lost for US in Vietnam war leading to the end of US's invasion in VIetnam in 1973.

So basically you equated losses of US military operation in Viet Nam into that of US military failure ??

how about you read operation Bolo instead ?

and btw, just as Afghanistan it was the exhaustion of the public will, not the military operation itself that end US military involvement.
 

EastseaQ77

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US lost many battles during Vietnam war, most of them are just not big battles like Operation Linebacker II, but surprise raids instead, such as :

1.

THE NUI BA DEN MASSACRES​


The following narrative is written by Ed Tatarnic, John A. Anderson’s cousin, one of the soldiers killed in the battle on Nui Ba Den (Black Virgin Mountain in Vietnam) 13 May 1968. John Anderson 4 Photos W NAME
Please contact Ed at: [email protected] if you knew his cousin John A. Anderson.
Mr. Tatarnic, has done an excellent job researching this battle, and I am indebted to him for the time and effort he spent on this narrative.
His excellent narrative, has been edited, revised and condensed for those readers without a knowledge of military terminology.
As you read this story, you may realize that you or someone you know was in this battle. If so, I invite you to contact me by leaving a note in the comment section. I plan to continue adding details, and photos of those involved in the battle, to give them the honor they deserve.
******* 13 MAY 1968 BATTLE KIAS/POW*******
The following 21 soldiers were killed in the battle of May 13, 1968:
* SGT Joseph Adams, New Orleans, LA, Prov Sig Co, 125th Sig Bn
* SP4 John A. Anderson, Williamsville, NY,HHC, 4th Bn, 9th Infantry
* SP4 Ralph R. Black, Crystal Falls, MI, C Co, 121st Sig Bn
* SGT Fernando Calle-Zuluaga, Los Angeles, CA, 587th Sig Co, 86th Sig Bn
* CPT George Coleman, Birmingham, AL, Prov Sig Co, 125th Sig Bn
* PFC Samuel G. Connelly, Hammond, IN, A Co, 2nd Bn, 18th Infantry
* SP4 Moses J. Cousin, Detroit, MI, Prov Sig Co, 125th Sig Bn
* SP4 Albert E. Dahl, Aurora, IL, B Co, 125th Sig Bn
Page 1
* CPT Arthur L. Davis, Beaufort, NC, 587th Sig Co, 86th Sig Bn
* SP4 James A. Davis, Orlando, FL, B Co, 125th Sig Bn
* SP4 Gary J. Gilin, Detroit, MI, A Co, 4th Bn, 9th Infantry
* SP4 Jeffrey W. Haerle, Minneapolis, MN, HQ, 3rd ASA Fld Station
* SP4 Paul R. Hoag, Poughkeepsie, NY, Prov Sig Co, 125th Sig Bn
* SP4 Michael J. Juneau, Hessmer, LA, B Co, 125th Sig Bn
* SP4 Paul R. Lozano, Bay City, TX, 587th Sig Co, 86th Sig Bn
* SP4 Frank J. Makuh, Placentia, CA, C Co, 121st Sig Bn
*PFC John Patrick McGonigal Jr., 194th MP Co., 1st Signal Brigade attached to the 125th Signal Bn
* SGT Timothy J. Noden, Linwood, PA, A Co, 2nd Bn, 18th Infantry
* SSG Ray W. Owen, Columbia, SC, Prov Sig Co, 125th Sig Bn MEDIC
* 2LT Thomas N. Teague, Mountlake Terrace, WA, Prov Sig Co, 125th Sig Bn
* SSG Harold A. Stone, Champaign, IL, Prov Sig Co, 125th Sig Bn
* SSG Bobby C. Wood, Monroe, LA, PROV SIG CO, 125TH SIG BN, 25 INF DIV

McGonigal_John_P_Jr_DOB_1947

SAPPER ATTACK PHOTOS



(CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE)

Page 98

(CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE)



Page 99 (CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE)



(CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE)



(CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE)

Page 100

553rd EMS technicians serviced the equipment in the relay van. While preparing the relay van for airlift back to Korat, this unexploded sapper charge was found! This is the type of explosive charge planted by the Viet Cong to blow up the vans.

(CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE)


(CLICK ON PHOTOS TO ENLARGE)

Source of photos and narrative: http://www.westin553.net/batcat00.htm

The following comment from Lt. Jon Blickenstaff, states the above attack began Sunday night, June 15, 1969 at 11:30 PM. Three of his men were killed (KIA).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Page 101
My name is Jon Blickenstaff and I was an Infantry 1st Lt. assigned to Nui Ba Den as a platoon leader under the command of Headquarters Company, 1st Brigade, Provisional Company, 25th Infantry Division. Our primary mission was to man and defend the bunker line. I was on the mountain from February 13, 1969 through June 17, 1969. I was directed to your sight by Ron Henry (he has previous posts) whom I served with during the late summer and fall of 1968 when we were both assigned to the 5th Infantry (Mechanized) Regiment, 25th Infantry Division while the unit’s assigned AO was out of Dau Tieng. We have a very comprehensive Regimental Association web site at http://www.bobcats.ws detailing the unit’s entire deployment history from 1966 through 1971 with tons of photos. The Regiment is the 3rd oldest unit, established in 1808, still on active duty with the US Army and is comprised of the 1st and 2nd Battalions.

I am contacting you regarding the post of Zahra dated June 5, 2012 and the above article titled June 18, 1969 and the Sapper Attack Photos. I was on the mountain the night of that attack, but all my documents and dated letters sent back to my family (which my mother kept for me) support the fact that the attack actually occurred on Sunday night, June 15, 1969 beginning at about 11:30 p.m. I have also confirmed that date with 1st Sergeant Harry Meyer (Retired) who was an E-7 at the time and served in the capacity of 1st Sergeant for the Provisional Company. The Commanding Officer of the mountain at that time was Major Campbell. Harry, now retired, lives near Ft. Knox and I can confidentially provide you his contact information if you are interested.

I had 18 men assigned to me and my security sector was bunkers 7 through 12, with 3 men per bunker. The last photo in the article above is the back side of the bunker I occupied, that being bunker 9.




On the night of the attack, an Air Force container holding top secret surveillance radio equipment was the first target hit by the sappers. That container sat on top of the hill directly behind my bunker 9, so I know that for a fact.

I and others are firmly convinced that the sappers were already inside the wire exploding satchel charges before we started receiving incoming AK-47 and RPG fire from outside the wire as those explosions were the first things we heard.


The focus of the incoming fire was directly in front of bunkers 8 and 9 with bunker 7 receiving fire on the left side as you look at the back of it from the inside of the bunker line. Top of mountain taken next to water reservoir (2) Area in front of Bunker 9 X Bunker 10 taken from Bunker 9 X Bunker 9 front right x

I had 3 men KIA that night, Marvin C. WhIte, Ramona, Ca., Gary D. Bender, Des Moines, Ia. and Thomas E. Hughes, Oldfield, Mo. (No photo).

 

EastseaQ77

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So basically you equated losses of US military operation in Viet Nam into that of US military failure ??

how about you read operation Bolo instead ?

and btw, just as Afghanistan it was the exhaustion of the public will, not the military operation itself that end US military involvement.
No, US forces were defeated in many raids, suh as THE NUI BA DEN MASSACRES


btw, US had much better Air forces, but VN had much better sapper forces. There were always 10 US jet fighter against 3 or 4 VN Mig, no surprise they normally won, but sometime, they lost . Many US pilots like John Mc Cain were McCain was taken prisoner of war after their aircraft were shot down.

McCain was taken prisoner of war on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi. McCain fractured both arms and a leg when he ejected from the aircraft, and nearly drowned after he parachuted into Trúc Bạch Lake
American politician. McCain admitted to a hospital in Hanoi, Vietnam as a prisoner of war after his jet was shot down during a bombing mission. Photograph, 1967. Full Credit: Rue des Archives / Granger. All Rights

0170454-JOHN-MCCAIN-1936-2018-American-politician-McCain-admitted-to-a-hospital-in-Hanoi-Vietn...jpg


JOHN MCCAIN (1936-2018). American politician. McCain admitted to a hospital in Hanoi, Vietnam as a prisoner of war after his jet was shot down during a bombing mission. Photograph, 1967. Full Credit: Rue des Archives / Granger.


 
M

Manomed

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US had much better Air forces, but VN had much better sapper forces. There were always 10 US jet fighter against 3 or 4 VN Mig, no surprise they normally won, but sometime, they lost . Many US pilots like John Mc Cain were McCain was taken prisoner of war after their aircraft were shot down.


American politician. McCain admitted to a hospital in Hanoi, Vietnam as a prisoner of war after his jet was shot down during a bombing mission. Photograph, 1967. Full Credit: Rue des Archives / Granger. All Rights



JOHN MCCAIN (1936-2018). American politician. McCain admitted to a hospital in Hanoi, Vietnam as a prisoner of war after his jet was shot down during a bombing mission. Photograph, 1967. Full Credit: Rue des Archives / Granger.
Didn't US destroyed most of your air force If It wasn't for USSR or CHINA US would bomb the f out of vietnam without a hesitation thank USSR
 

xizhimen

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When was the last time PLA won a war in Asia ?

Otoh, US does won war in Asia (West Asia)

Technically Iraq is part of Asia, but most people think it is part of middle east, usually people in US dont' call a Iraqi Asian American. if you count this war torn region in, Israel scores a better mark than US.
 
M

Manomed

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Technically Iraq is part of Asia, but most people think it is part of middle east, usually people in US dont' call a Iraqi Asian American. if you count this war torn region in, Israel scores a better mark than US.
+10000 social credit sir
 

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