TR Turkish Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Zafer]

What boggles my mind if they remotely control the aircraft, why would deny US to get F-35, considering S-400 issue is an excuse. Wouldn't it much simpler for them if they would sell us F-35? So Turkey wouldn't try to get any alternative, US companies would gain billions of dollars, and in case want to cripple Turkey, just switch off F-35. Done. Now, as Turkey didn't get any other plane, we are just crippled.

It is Israel who effected the US decision and also it would not look good on the US to have allowed their partners to make deals with its rivals. Otherwise I remember a US general saying "We desperately need to give F35 to Turkey".

 

[Yasar_TR]

On the flip side every single shortcoming we had in technology has its roots in the fact that it is the west that have prevented us from developing our own. We lost the many decades in development just because of that west.

What you see as flip side of what West has done , I see as our deficiency and shortcomings in our education system. It is only now are we seeing our Universities and scientific establishments being involved in research and development. Still many of our private enterprises are only interested in making a quick profit. And they are not investing in R&D.
The West is not going to give you knowledge and tech for free. They see you as countries that can be exploited with your natural resources used for their own benefits. The trick lies in, not to be drawn in to that quagmire.

 

[Zafer]

What you see as flip side of what West has done , I see as our deficiency and shortcomings in our education system. It is only now are we seeing our Universities and scientific establishments being involved in research and development. Still many of our private enterprises are only interested in making a quick profit. And they are not investing in R&D.
The West is not going to give you knowledge and tech for free. They see you as countries that can be exploited with your natural resources used for their own benefits. The trick lies in, not to be drawn in to that quagmire.

Education system and culture are all on the surface, deep inside is a well established network of western proxies that have done anything to prevent Turks from progressing in science and technology like they are at war with Turks. It takes only several dozen people to start an industrial revolution, the rest of the people are only followers. And those proxies selectively targeted and eliminated the people that could make a difference. It's all in the past now.

 

[Ecderha]

F-35....
Full control mode "troyan horse"
The pilot went to the plane and sat down....
Then he had to log in to activate and use the plane.... and he did it or at least try but...
However, he did not know that his "Rights" had been remotely disabled.....
The result was that the pilot could not use the plane!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1299659823190085633

Stop the video and just look at the pilot's face. He doesn't know what happened! Why can't he fly the plane!


One word, the plane will never be yours.
U.S. has full control all the time.

A real-life little FACT for all naive people

 

[Yasar_TR]

F-35....
Full control mode "troyan horse"
The pilot went to the plane and sat down....
Then he had to log in to activate and use the plane.... and he did it or at least try but...
However, he did not know that his "Rights" had been remotely disabled.....
The result was that the pilot could not use the plane!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1299659823190085633

Stop the video and just look at the pilot's face. He doesn't know what happened! Why can't he fly the plane!


One word, the plane will never be yours.
U.S. has full control all the time.

A real-life little FACT for all naive people

I am afraid it is not quite as drastic as you have portrayed here.
The ALIS - Autonomic Logistics Information System that the F35 planes have, is actually like a small laptop device that contains mission and flight information and is pushed in to a slot on the cockpit by the pilot before each mission. It helps pilot log on to the plane’s computer. Like most computers in a few instances with the British trainee pilots, the pilot could not log on due to some glitch in the system. So he had to ask the LM to intervene and help him log on remotely. This happened at the earlier stages of the f35 programme.
This, together with the sovereign information collection issues have been addressed and supposedly sorted. In fact with the latest modifications, if ALIS can not connect for a period of 30 days to the central hub, the planes’ operational status won’t be affected.
If ALIS can not connect to the central hub, there are ground control centres in each country that can take over the job.
Losing connectivity to ALIS would be a pain, but hardly fatal. If jets are unable to use ALIS — a ground-based system that provides sustainment and support, but not combat capabilities for the jet — the F-35 is still a usable plane. In fact, the worst case scenario would be that operators would have to track maintenance and manage daily squadron operations manually, just as older jets do.
To overcome the teething problems of the first jets, they are replacing ALIS with ODIN - Operational Data Integrated Network - now.

 

[Zafer]

Everything we know about the F35 war plane is told us by its master.

 

[Oublious]

I am afraid it is not quite as drastic as you have portrayed here.
The ALIS - Autonomic Logistics Information System that the F35 planes have, is actually like a small laptop device that contains mission and flight information and is pushed in to a slot on the cockpit by the pilot before each mission. It helps pilot log on to the plane’s computer. Like most computers in a few instances with the British trainee pilots, the pilot could not log on due to some glitch in the system. So he had to ask the LM to intervene and help him log on remotely. This happened at the earlier stages of the f35 programme.
This, together with the sovereign information collection issues have been addressed and supposedly sorted. In fact with the latest modifications, if ALIS can not connect for a period of 30 days to the central hub, the planes’ operational status won’t be affected.
If ALIS can not connect to the central hub, there are ground control centres in each country that can take over the job.
Losing connectivity to ALIS would be a pain, but hardly fatal. If jets are unable to use ALIS — a ground-based system that provides sustainment and support, but not combat capabilities for the jet — the F-35 is still a usable plane. In fact, the worst case scenario would be that operators would have to track maintenance and manage daily squadron operations manually, just as older jets do.
To overcome the teething problems of the first jets, they are replacing ALIS with ODIN - Operational Data Integrated Network - now.

I still can not understand how lightly you pick up the problem.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I still can not understand how lightly you pick up the problem.

You are free to believe in whatever you want to believe. But just think that if this plane were such a security problem as it is made out to be, why on earth countries like UK, Netherlands, Italy, Norway, Canada, Australia, Japan, SKorea, Denmark, Poland, Belgium and Singapore have ordered these planes? Are they that stupid?
Sure, the plane has a lot of negative stuff going for itself; like, paint job coming off, can’t fly at supersonic speeds for too long, can’t open bomb doors at low altitudes, it’s engine is not very dependable many of them have had to have engine changes etc etc.
But in spite of all these problems all the above countries have ordered these planes. There will be more countries like Switzerland, Spain and Finland that will join this bandwagon.
Had we not been kicked out of the program we would be discussing something more positive about this plane now!
I personally don’t like the plane as a whole. It is fraught with technical problems. But it is a marvel of a plane from engineering point of view. It is too expensive to maintain. If we want to produce MMU , we can’t really afford 100 of these. Although I don’t believe in the ALIS problems and US switching it off conspiracy scenarios , it is at the end of the day a US made plane. And we would be dependent on US for everything to do with this plane. And that is totally wrong move for us. But as I have explained above, to keep our foot in we should buy no more than couple of squadrons.

 

[Oublious]

You are free to believe in whatever you want to believe. But just think that if this plane were such a security problem as it is made out to be, why on earth countries like UK, Netherlands, Italy, Norway, Canada, Australia, Japan, SKorea, Denmark, Poland, Belgium and Singapore have ordered these planes? Are they that stupid?
Sure, the plane has a lot of negative stuff going for itself; like, paint job coming off, can’t fly at supersonic speeds for too long, can’t open bomb doors at low altitudes, it’s engine is not very dependable many of them have had to have engine changes etc etc.
But in spite of all these problems all the above countries have ordered these planes. There will be more countries like Switzerland, Spain and Finland that will join this bandwagon.
Had we not been kicked out of the program we would be discussing something more positive about this plane now!
I personally don’t like the plane as a whole. It is fraught with technical problems. But it is a marvel of a plane from engineering point of view. It is too expensive to maintain. If we want to produce MMU , we can’t really afford 100 of these. Although I don’t believe in the ALIS problems and US switching it off conspiracy scenarios , it is at the end of the day a US made plane. And we would be dependent on US for everything to do with this plane. And that is totally wrong move for us. But as I have explained above, to keep our foot in we should buy no more than couple of squadrons.

That is not valid argument, all that countries you have mentioned don't have enemies supported by USA self. They don't have politics what go clash with Americans bigtime as we do. IF you give them as a examplr it like that, should sample the differences.

 

[TR_123456]

Just compare the F-35 to the F-16 which also has a ''kill switch'' but still is the backbone of our Air Force.
Like @Yasar abi wrote,we need at least two squadrons of the F-35.

 

[Zafer]

But as I have explained above, to keep our foot in we should buy no more than couple of squadrons.

Those countries that are buying the F35 are inseparably bound to the US and have no other way but pay four the cost of the plane. Türkiye on the other hand have our discrete interests that are not highly aligned with US interests.
Buying like 2-3 squadrons will not be acceptable for the US as reaping benefits but avoiding full engagement with the program is not beneficial for them. Buying any more than 40 is not in line with our national programs either. In ideal conditions 30 planes would be useful for Turkey but the US will very unlikely agree to that unless they are desperate to keep Turkish suppliers on board and we will not accept political baggage along with it. Unless very pressing matters come up there is no path leading to an F35 acquisition for Türkiye.

 

[Ecderha]

Just for the record and information about F-35's breakdowns so far:


• 23.06.2014: USA F-35A
• 27.10.2016: USA F-35B
• 28.09.2018: USA F-35B
• 09.04.2019: Japanese F-35A (pilot lost)
• 19.05.2020: USA F-35A
• 17.11.2021: British F-35B
• 5.01.2022: South Korea F-35A
• 24.01.2022 USA F-35C

 

[Agha Sher]

Just for the record and information about F-35's breakdowns so far:


• 23.06.2014: USA F-35A
• 27.10.2016: USA F-35B
• 28.09.2018: USA F-35B
• 09.04.2019: Japanese F-35A (pilot lost)
• 19.05.2020: USA F-35A
• 17.11.2021: British F-35B
• 5.01.2022: South Korea F-35A
• 24.01.2022 USA F-35C

This is actually not too bad considering the number of F-35s out there. Also, The British F-35B crash cannot be blamed on the aircraft.

 

[Yasar_TR]

That is not valid argument, all that countries you have mentioned don't have enemies supported by USA self. They don't have politics what go clash with Americans bigtime as we do. IF you give them as a examplr it like that, should sample the differences.

It is a valid argument in the sense that these countries have made a conscious choice (like we had until we were kicked out - we were those countries once) to purchase these planes knowing exactly how much they are technically going to be dependent on US.
US supporting PYD and clashing with us in political terms is not related to whether we should buy these planes or not. US has an agenda that it is following. We will resist that agenda whenever it is against our interests. What startled US was that, a Turkey that was subservient to all their whims and requests before, now have said “NO” for a second time since their troops were not allowed to use Turkish soil in first gulf war.
But that same US has allowed their industry to sell very critical machinery that will help liberate our defence industry like @neosinan had posted:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1485998391477870598

If we stick with the logic that “US is against us in Syria then US is our enemy” , we should not buy anything from them , including 40 new F16Vs and 80 modernisation kits.
We will never physically fight with US. So just use the status quo to our advantage as much as we can.
We know very well that if we buy those 40 new F16Vs we will be dependent on US for them. We will not be able to do what ever we want with them. But we are willing to put up with that, Why? Because we think we may manage the dependency issue to a degree since the lack of those planes will mean more.
We have a saying in Turkish “until you cross the bridge you have to call the bear a friend to let you through”

 

[Khagan1923]

Just for the record and information about F-35's breakdowns so far:


• 23.06.2014: USA F-35A
• 27.10.2016: USA F-35B
• 28.09.2018: USA F-35B
• 09.04.2019: Japanese F-35A (pilot lost)
• 19.05.2020: USA F-35A
• 17.11.2021: British F-35B
• 5.01.2022: South Korea F-35A
• 24.01.2022 USA F-35C

I love when people point these cherry picked stats meanwhile they don't realize how many F-16 crashed in the first 20 years after the plane was inducted. Even now F-16 crash yearly. Since 1975 over 330 F-16 have crashed and continue to crash for various reasons. Malfunction, bad weather, just pure bad luck and plain pilot incompetence. The F-35 program has delivered over 700 Planes and how many have crashed? Close to a dozen, not even that? Malfunctions happen, it is in the end a machine.

The same people I'm sure will call the TF-X trash too when the first plane crashes. Because it will happen.

But then the same mentality existed when Turkey put its first order in for the F-16. People called it useless, a death machine, how it gives the US control over our Air-Force, how we won't be able to do what we want with it without approval and the F-4 better than it. Now the same mentality has replaced the F-4 with a TB-2 thinking it can over come a real airforce with a tactical drone. Come back to me when the TB-2 can conduct deep strikes without being detected. When it can detect Ballistic Missile Launches. When it carries the most potent AESA Radar known to the world. Israel has been making a fool out of the Russians and their "sophisticated" Air defence system, the same system we are letting rot in a warhouse in a deactive air base, in syria ever since they have achieve IOC with their F-35 squadrons. Flying right over their heads and bombing their allies right in the proximity of their Bases in Syria. Meanwhile the Russians realize something is going on when they hear the bombs hit their targets.

But I don't see any of you arguing here Turkey should drop the F-16?
Also the ALIS system doesn't exist anymore after complaints were made by several countries about its restrictive nature. It has been replaced to the satisfaction to those complaining costumers.
Thinking the F-16 can't be "turned-off" (please stop watching so many sci-fi movies) is hilarious. We operate the third most F-16 in the world after the USAF and Israel. Nevertheless we have used the F-16 to bomb American proxies in Syria, even enemy elements only a couple hundreds meters away from American Forces. So tell me why hasn't the US used the kill switch then? Why is the US allowing Turkey to proceed with the Özgür Program?

In the end the Air Force wants it, the Navy wants it and the Department of Defence is fighting tooth and nail to get it. I think I'm gonna value their opinion more than that of those who cherry pick arguments, stats and compare a tactical drone to a full blown 5th gen stealth fighter that has proven its worth countless times over the last 4 years.

 

[Zafer]

US has a lot more to lose if they hack Turkish F16s than they will gain by doing so. Wait until a critical moment when it has more gains to make than loss to suffer for them to do hacking to see the hard truth.

Remember the Falkland war, F16 is far more sophisticated and allows for far more opportunities for a hack.

 

[mulj]

comparing airframe from 50 years old technology with the lets say state of the art technology made airplane and with all safety measures, procedures, materials, software etc., like is f35, is not really adequate.
from this perspective you can say it is already failed project, 200 mils for one crush is pretty expensive thing.

 

[Zafer]

Actual civilian plane accident statistics are made against hours flown by the plane.
So the mere crash numbers do not really mean much.

 

[fq5n9v]

Why are you so much afraid about F-35s, we're not planning to use them againts US are we. They will make it clear who can't we use them on and IF our politicians agree (like the last time) then we can purchase the aircraft. There won't be any suprise later.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I love when people point these cherry picked stats meanwhile they don't realize how many F-16 crashed in the first 20 years after the plane was inducted. Even now F-16 crash yearly. Since 1975 over 330 F-16 have crashed and continue to crash for various reasons. Malfunction, bad weather, just pure bad luck and plain pilot incompetence. The F-35 program has delivered over 700 Planes and how many have crashed? Close to a dozen, not even that? Malfunctions happen, it is in the end a machine.

The same people I'm sure will call the TF-X trash too when the first plane crashes. Because it will happen.

But then the same mentality existed when Turkey put its first order in for the F-16. People called it useless, a death machine, how it gives the US control over our Air-Force, how we won't be able to do what we want with it without approval and the F-4 better than it. Now the same mentality has replaced the F-4 with a TB-2 thinking it can over come a real airforce with a tactical drone. Come back to me when the TB-2 can conduct deep strikes without being detected. When it can detect Ballistic Missile Launches. When it carries the most potent AESA Radar known to the world. Israel has been making a fool out of the Russians and their "sophisticated" Air defence system, the same system we are letting rot in a warhouse in a deactive air base, in syria ever since they have achieve IOC with their F-35 squadrons. Flying right over their heads and bombing their allies right in the proximity of their Bases in Syria. Meanwhile the Russians realize something is going on when they hear the bombs hit their targets.

But I don't see any of you arguing here Turkey should drop the F-16?
Also the ALIS system doesn't exist anymore after complaints were made by several countries about its restrictive nature. It has been replaced to the satisfaction to those complaining costumers.
Thinking the F-16 can't be "turned-off" (please stop watching so many sci-fi movies) is hilarious. We operate the third most F-16 in the world after the USAF and Israel. Nevertheless we have used the F-16 to bomb American proxies in Syria, even enemy elements only a couple hundreds meters away from American Forces. So tell me why hasn't the US used the kill switch then? Why is the US allowing Turkey to proceed with the Özgür Program?

In the end the Air Force wants it, the Navy wants it and the Department of Defence is fighting tooth and nail to get it. I think I'm gonna value their opinion more than that of those who cherry pick arguments, stats and compare a tactical drone to a full blown 5th gen stealth fighter that has proven its worth countless times over the last 4 years.

To add to your post re f16 crashes;
TAF has bought 280 f16s in total through Peace Onyx program.
Today we have 245 F16s. (87 of these are used as trainers)
So we have lost 35 planes.