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Blackbeardsgoldfish

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BTW, don't know if you saw but the paralymics head was censored by China (CCTV coverage) when he started his opening speech by calling for peace in UKR-RUS conflict.

To give an idea of the continued major brazen backing to russian narrative (domestically)...given the inertia built up in CCP for this.

There are some pretty disturbing things starting up in weibo again (all done by CCP in end).... I'll try to summarise those later.
Thanks for informing me and please pardon my belated response, I've been a wee bit busy these past few days and could only check in for a few minutes to catch up.

Read a few reports to get a oversight of the censored speech, and it sure is very brazen by them, no doubt about that. The CCP censorship is generally very heavy handed with these matters, but this seems like a shot in the foot by them. Even though the paralympics aren't much publicity, it's still enough to get international headlines. Since they're busy accusing the boycotting nations of lacking integrity and not overcoming the political differences in the name of an olympic truce, this doesn't make a lot of strategic sense, an amateurish, frantic error really.

How many watch the paralympics internationally/in China anyway, compared to the Olympics?
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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For all interested in China observing @Joe Shearer @Blackbeardsgoldfish et al.

Regd Mainland Chinese impression of the UKR - RUS war....

Compare and contrast these two videos if interested and time permits:



Also consider the segment of populations represented in both (both not reflective of the whole...if you have been to Shanghai for example you will especially know why)...

i.e what is the different flavour of a take you can get from an immense complicated country?

Should the CCP itself be treated as a stark monolith....or must one look into its factions and what their nuanced and even quite different ideologies are? How does this reflect and impact in the power struggles and society churns?

Furthermore:
Should people also base some impression (on some matter) fully on the 30% of Indians that vote for the BJP federally...or the 70% that do not (leaving aside the large population that decides to not vote at all for time being)? 🤔
Can those 37% and 63% be divided into more factions and tiers of why/what?

Are these features found in all large and mid sized and even smaller sized populations in general?

questions, questions, questions....(I will delve even deeper in this thread over time....things are just getting started and time and audience is low + forming).
The differences between the two videos are stark, for sure. But it's not surprising that Shanghai, as a cosmopolitan city, would have the more liberal anti-war stance on the matter (except for the old man they interviewed) and give a basically uniform picture, compared to some people from who knows where in China sharing their opinion on social media.

But it does remind me very much of the sentiment that permeated western media leading up the Iraq war in 2003, with Bush's rhetoric about "either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists", and the subsequent silencing of opposition figures, like Chris Hedges when he got kicked out of the NYT for publicly opposing the war. The many, many anti-war protests and how those got cracked down on, the spying in the name of "national security", the imprisonment of suspicious figures and all these little evils that add up, with the major difference being that back then the influence of social media was minuscule compared to nowadays.

The different narratives that the videos try to create are also somewhat pointless though? Shanghai isn't representative of the rest of China, and social media extremism isn't representative of the masses. Personally I think that questioning a few people from a population numbering 1.4 billion is ridiculous at best and the cherrypicking of the other guy is also unhelpful.
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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This is the most difficult part of a democracy for people from a different kind of constitutional system to understand. I am sick of explaining that a particular government, with its promises and its threats, and its public posturings and private affiliations, does not represent a shift in thinking and outlook of the whole of the electorate, but only a part of it.
The thing with democracy is that it doesn't tend to work well, or at all, when the people that are allowed to vote remain largely politically illiterate, or don't make an effort to understand their system better. The other thing is that a government represents an easy picture of a different country and the beliefs of the people that live within it, even though it isn't representative of everyone. One can far easier identify the good or the bad based on what the government does, and if there isn't any effort made to find out what those opposing the government think, then an opinion remains largely invalid.

Democracy is hard to understand, and harder to categorize. It does allow you to hold an opinion based on your beliefs, it doesn't allow you to impose this opinion or belief onto others and expect them to come to the same conclusion as you did. For a democracy to work as intended, the people that form it must be able to comprehend the political system and they must be knowledgeable about the world they live in, which really means that only safe, secure, wealthy and educated people can enjoy all the merits of a democracy. Tolerance is the highest virtue, different perspectives must be held to the same degree as one's own, and it's imperative to scrutinize political leadership for it's faults and successes.

A while ago I had a discussion about whether or not one should vote. The person I was discussing this with said(paraphrasing here a bit) that voting is the only way to keep a state stable and extremists on the fringe of society, and to allow for a nation that is led by someone that has the legitimate authority of the people they administer due to the majority of the votes they received. My position was that the act of voting is an admission of one's own inability to choose by, paradoxically, choosing someone that should make the choices.
I spoke from a position where I had the recent history of Austria and Germany in mind. How Hitler came to power and the weakness of Weimar Germany, the overthrow of the First Republic and installment of Austrofascism in Austria, and how many Nazis participated in the governments of the postwar states, specifically Austria, which had it's recent bouts of corruption at the highest level. To me, entrusting a leader with the power of millions of votes is only an acceptable practice when the leader is subject to draconian punishment, should he purposefully abuse his power.
In the end, it doesn't matter what anyone believes, does it? The sun's going to rise in the morning regardless, eventually it'll even explode and wipe the planet from existence, so why bother making that big a fuss about it all...

If anyone wants me to, I can elaborate on this later on, as I have a few more thoughts. Any feedback on this is welcomed!
 

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The thing with democracy is that it doesn't tend to work well, or at all, when the people that are allowed to vote remain largely politically illiterate, or don't make an effort to understand their system better. The other thing is that a government represents an easy picture of a different country and the beliefs of the people that live within it, even though it isn't representative of everyone. One can far easier identify the good or the bad based on what the government does, and if there isn't any effort made to find out what those opposing the government think, then an opinion remains largely invalid.

Democracy is hard to understand, and harder to categorize. It does allow you to hold an opinion based on your beliefs, it doesn't allow you to impose this opinion or belief onto others and expect them to come to the same conclusion as you did. For a democracy to work as intended, the people that form it must be able to comprehend the political system and they must be knowledgeable about the world they live in, which really means that only safe, secure, wealthy and educated people can enjoy all the merits of a democracy. Tolerance is the highest virtue, different perspectives must be held to the same degree as one's own, and it's imperative to scrutinize political leadership for it's faults and successes.

A while ago I had a discussion about whether or not one should vote. The person I was discussing this with said(paraphrasing here a bit) that voting is the only way to keep a state stable and extremists on the fringe of society, and to allow for a nation that is led by someone that has the legitimate authority of the people they administer due to the majority of the votes they received. My position was that the act of voting is an admission of one's own inability to choose by, paradoxically, choosing someone that should make the choices.
I spoke from a position where I had the recent history of Austria and Germany in mind. How Hitler came to power and the weakness of Weimar Germany, the overthrow of the First Republic and installment of Austrofascism in Austria, and how many Nazis participated in the governments of the postwar states, specifically Austria, which had it's recent bouts of corruption at the highest level. To me, entrusting a leader with the power of millions of votes is only an acceptable practice when the leader is subject to draconian punishment, should he purposefully abuse his power.
In the end, it doesn't matter what anyone believes, does it? The sun's going to rise in the morning regardless, eventually it'll even explode and wipe the planet from existence, so why bother making that big a fuss about it all...

If anyone wants me to, I can elaborate on this later on, as I have a few more thoughts. Any feedback on this is welcomed!
Please continue. This is fascinating. I am stepping out for an hour; please bear with me and with any delayed response.
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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Please continue. This is fascinating. I am stepping out for an hour; please bear with me and with any delayed response.
When it comes to voting, one needs to keep in mind that it's not simply an act of being "correct" about the political opinion one holds. When you cast your vote and agreement that your beliefs should be the formative ideas that influence every person in your village/town/city/state/country, then you have brought part of the responsibility for the wellbeing of those that are influenced by your decision onto yourself.
A government that you as a voter have helped to bring into being is not the one solely responsible for the decisions that are taken, as it required and continues to require your agreement, and the agreement of most of the fellow voters in a functioning democracy. Therefore the supporters of the government need to scrutinize the policies enacted, and criticize it as objectively as possible, and should never allow themselves to become complacent with unethical or unlawful conduct by(members of) their government, just because those represent the political principles they hold. This means that should a decision be taken that purposefully affects fellow citizens negatively, and brings about a benefit only to a select group, then the government’s supporter needs to object to the policy and prevent it from being implemented.

Because a democratic political system represents the software to the hardware of the nation in which it operates, you, as the user/voter, need to be “loyal” not to the government but to your nation. You can change software, but you cannot change the hardware – in a democracy you can change your government but you cannot change your nation. You want to have the best possible software that fits the best to your hardware. Just because you like certain aspects of a software does not mean that it will work with your hardware, and therefore you need to change it to make it work as best as possible.

Now, the question of the nation, what it is and if it should be, is something that I have my issues with. The feeling of belonging to a nation is for many people a sense of pride, of meaning and it feels natural. It allows for a level of organization between peoples that has brought human civilization and technological, industrial, scientific, etc. capability to unprecedented heights, and should therefore be seen as one of the greatest inventions in human history. With being a citizen of a nation, you can identify yourself as someone more than just “you” in whatever metrics you can think of for yourself as a singular unit. Henceforth a nation shouldn’t be identified by it’s leaders and governments, but by it’s history, culture, traditions, art and peoples in this sense and to a certain degree even the geographic boundaries.

The nation as a concept however makes me uncomfortable. It is not a desire of mine to see myself having to obey a government which I did not vote for, that resides in a place that I rarely ever venture towards, which gives the power over a nation’s economic and social spheres to itself and it’s electorate, and which is accountable, rarely at that, to a judicial system that I do not consider to be just nor ethical. That the leader of a nation has the best interests of his/her people as a goal is for one rarely the case, not because they wouldn’t intend to do so, but because they’re not humanly capable of performing the workload a position like this requires and for the other are they simply lusting for the power that can it brings with it.

This goes not only for the nation that administers millions or even billions of people, but for vastly smaller circles. If there is a group of people, hierarchies will form spontaneously and with every action taken by members of that group. Having myself experienced nepotism and plutocratic rule in a small environment that operated under the pretense of being meritocratic, I hold an opposition to such a system, one that I will likely never overcome. So in this instance, I associate a negative experience most strongly with hierarchical order, one that I gained from a small circle, and one which I have seen repeat themselves in ever larger groupings of people, until we reach the stratosphere of statehood.

The state is then a product of the people, by the people, for the people, as Lincoln said. It exists solely by the virtue of and for the benefit of it’s people. But how to define benefit for everyone? What is an applicable definition of “benefit” for all the people, is it success and recognition, wealth and status, health and education, or interpersonal relationships of fulfillment? Is it all of those things or an unknown variable…?

But back to democracy, and whether or not it was a successful system. How many times has it failed and how many times has it succeeded? What kind of democracy has been truly representative of everyone?
It certainly has seen some spectacular successes throughout history, the first big one being the Roman Republic. A state that managed to become the first truly dominant european power, but how democratic was it? Most of it’s citizens couldn’t vote, it had millions of slaves, the peoples subjugated by military might were kept poor and given no power – yet it was democratic. Another one was Britain, which while having a supreme ruler, had it mostly for appearances sake and not because it needed one. Britain managed to establish the worlds largest empire, it became more successful than Rome and managed to directly subjugate a quarter of the world’s population with it’s military might. Yet it’s treatment of the people was anything but in their best interest, especially you as an indian should know that, it’s empire existed to make (firstly) themselves and (secondly) Britain wealthy, and their democratic government didn’t care if it starved it’s subjects in Ireland or robbed India to fuel it’s industrial revolution. Yet it was ruled by a democratic system. The third one and most applicable to our times is of course the USA, a nation that claimed to be democratic from the onset, yet only white landowners could vote, it’s founders held contempt for the common people, they held millions of slaves for the economic benefit of the few, drove the natives into extinction and treated it’s immigrants as the scum of the earth… yet it was democratic. So, in this sense, democracy was successful, but it didn’t stick to the values and principles that should make it a viable political system.

If a citizenry isn’t able to educate itself about the workings of a democratic system, either because it is plagued by poverty and lack of educational availability or because it is too undisciplined and lazy, then it’ll fail and be abused by those hungry for power.

I realize that this is rather incoherent and doesn’t come close to a full picture, but it’s a very extensive topic and the post too long as it is. Maybe I’ll continue on with it tomorrow, I’ve got to order my thoughts some more. Any feedback is welcome!
 

TR_123456

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For a democracy to work as intended, the people that form it must be able to comprehend the political system and they must be knowledgeable about the world they live in, which really means that only safe, secure, wealthy and educated people can enjoy all the merits of a democracy. Tolerance is the highest virtue, different perspectives must be held to the same degree as one's own, and it's imperative to scrutinize political leadership for it's faults and successes.
I tried to explain this many times to people from certain countries(ME,East Asia,Africa etc).
This also why i am of the opinion to ready these countries for democracy by force with an ''authoritarian''(working for the country) regime for three decades at least.

Lee Kwan Jew is the best example.
Atatürk was close,died to soon.
 

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Therefore the supporters of the government need to scrutinize the policies enacted, and criticize it as objectively as possible, and should never allow themselves to become complacent with unethical or unlawful conduct by(members of) their government, just because those represent the political principles they hold.
I groaned, almost with pain, at the essential meaning of this sentence.

Are you a political scientist by education?
 

Joe Shearer

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This means that should a decision be taken that purposefully affects fellow citizens negatively, and brings about a benefit only to a select group, then the government’s supporter needs to object to the policy and prevent it from being implemented.
I WISH!!!
 

Joe Shearer

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When it comes to voting, one needs to keep in mind that it's not simply an act of being "correct" about the political opinion one holds. When you cast your vote and agreement that your beliefs should be the formative ideas that influence every person in your village/town/city/state/country, then you have brought part of the responsibility for the wellbeing of those that are influenced by your decision onto yourself.
A government that you as a voter have helped to bring into being is not the one solely responsible for the decisions that are taken, as it required and continues to require your agreement, and the agreement of most of the fellow voters in a functioning democracy. Therefore the supporters of the government need to scrutinize the policies enacted, and criticize it as objectively as possible, and should never allow themselves to become complacent with unethical or unlawful conduct by(members of) their government, just because those represent the political principles they hold. This means that should a decision be taken that purposefully affects fellow citizens negatively, and brings about a benefit only to a select group, then the government’s supporter needs to object to the policy and prevent it from being implemented.

Because a democratic political system represents the software to the hardware of the nation in which it operates, you, as the user/voter, need to be “loyal” not to the government but to your nation. You can change software, but you cannot change the hardware – in a democracy you can change your government but you cannot change your nation. You want to have the best possible software that fits the best to your hardware. Just because you like certain aspects of a software does not mean that it will work with your hardware, and therefore you need to change it to make it work as best as possible.

Now, the question of the nation, what it is and if it should be, is something that I have my issues with. The feeling of belonging to a nation is for many people a sense of pride, of meaning and it feels natural. It allows for a level of organization between peoples that has brought human civilization and technological, industrial, scientific, etc. capability to unprecedented heights, and should therefore be seen as one of the greatest inventions in human history. With being a citizen of a nation, you can identify yourself as someone more than just “you” in whatever metrics you can think of for yourself as a singular unit. Henceforth a nation shouldn’t be identified by it’s leaders and governments, but by it’s history, culture, traditions, art and peoples in this sense and to a certain degree even the geographic boundaries.

The nation as a concept however makes me uncomfortable. It is not a desire of mine to see myself having to obey a government which I did not vote for, that resides in a place that I rarely ever venture towards, which gives the power over a nation’s economic and social spheres to itself and it’s electorate, and which is accountable, rarely at that, to a judicial system that I do not consider to be just nor ethical. That the leader of a nation has the best interests of his/her people as a goal is for one rarely the case, not because they wouldn’t intend to do so, but because they’re not humanly capable of performing the workload a position like this requires and for the other are they simply lusting for the power that can it brings with it.

This goes not only for the nation that administers millions or even billions of people, but for vastly smaller circles. If there is a group of people, hierarchies will form spontaneously and with every action taken by members of that group. Having myself experienced nepotism and plutocratic rule in a small environment that operated under the pretense of being meritocratic, I hold an opposition to such a system, one that I will likely never overcome. So in this instance, I associate a negative experience most strongly with hierarchical order, one that I gained from a small circle, and one which I have seen repeat themselves in ever larger groupings of people, until we reach the stratosphere of statehood.

The state is then a product of the people, by the people, for the people, as Lincoln said. It exists solely by the virtue of and for the benefit of it’s people. But how to define benefit for everyone? What is an applicable definition of “benefit” for all the people, is it success and recognition, wealth and status, health and education, or interpersonal relationships of fulfillment? Is it all of those things or an unknown variable…?

But back to democracy, and whether or not it was a successful system. How many times has it failed and how many times has it succeeded? What kind of democracy has been truly representative of everyone?
It certainly has seen some spectacular successes throughout history, the first big one being the Roman Republic. A state that managed to become the first truly dominant european power, but how democratic was it? Most of it’s citizens couldn’t vote, it had millions of slaves, the peoples subjugated by military might were kept poor and given no power – yet it was democratic. Another one was Britain, which while having a supreme ruler, had it mostly for appearances sake and not because it needed one. Britain managed to establish the worlds largest empire, it became more successful than Rome and managed to directly subjugate a quarter of the world’s population with it’s military might. Yet it’s treatment of the people was anything but in their best interest, especially you as an indian should know that, it’s empire existed to make (firstly) themselves and (secondly) Britain wealthy, and their democratic government didn’t care if it starved it’s subjects in Ireland or robbed India to fuel it’s industrial revolution. Yet it was ruled by a democratic system. The third one and most applicable to our times is of course the USA, a nation that claimed to be democratic from the onset, yet only white landowners could vote, it’s founders held contempt for the common people, they held millions of slaves for the economic benefit of the few, drove the natives into extinction and treated it’s immigrants as the scum of the earth… yet it was democratic. So, in this sense, democracy was successful, but it didn’t stick to the values and principles that should make it a viable political system.

If a citizenry isn’t able to educate itself about the workings of a democratic system, either because it is plagued by poverty and lack of educational availability or because it is too undisciplined and lazy, then it’ll fail and be abused by those hungry for power.

I realize that this is rather incoherent and doesn’t come close to a full picture, but it’s a very extensive topic and the post too long as it is. Maybe I’ll continue on with it tomorrow, I’ve got to order my thoughts some more. Any feedback is welcome!
Your posts are very chewy, and need time to be mulled over.
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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I tried to explain this many times to people from certain countries(ME,East Asia,Africa etc).
This also why i am of the opinion to ready these countries for democracy by force with an ''authoritarian''(working for the country) regime for three decades at least.

Lee Kwan Jew is the best example.
Atatürk was close,died to soon.
I agree with you here, a period of authoritarian leadership to prepare for a democratic rule afterwards is vital more often than not.

Lee Kwan Jew is easily the best example, I'd maybe put Antonio de Oliveira Salazar after him. Atatürk was good too, and there are a lot more examples.
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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I groaned, almost with pain, at the essential meaning of this sentence.

Are you a political scientist by education?
Haha, politics is a lot of fun, I know...

But no, I'm an thoroughly bored 21 year old who luckily works in a very relaxed retail job, where he has a lot of time to read and think about a myriad of things, so please see my writings as nothing close to academic study. They need to be examined and criticized from just about every angle, and I'm very well aware of that, even hoping that the members here are going to do it!
I WISH!!!
Don't we all, don't we all...

Your posts are very chewy, and need time to be mulled over.
Please take all the time you need and speak your mind, I'd like to hear it!
 

Joe Shearer

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The thing with democracy is that it doesn't tend to work well, or at all, when the people that are allowed to vote remain largely politically illiterate,
This was a point famously made by Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. All sub-continentals will get the reference and will know the person.
 

Joe Shearer

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The other thing is that a government represents an easy picture of a different country and the beliefs of the people that live within it, even though it isn't representative of everyone. One can far easier identify the good or the bad based on what the government does, and if there isn't any effort made to find out what those opposing the government think, then an opinion remains largely invalid.
I'm really not sure that this was logically valid, but that is because I'm really not sure what is meant by these two sentences.
 

Blackbeardsgoldfish

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This is where, I believe, Indian intelligentsia have let down their country and people in fundamental ways, and left them unable to overcome their affiliations to vote as they should.
It's not just your country, but countries everywhere. Democracy demands a lot of the people that live under it, more than they can bear often, and expecting intellectuals to put up with that past the breaking point isn't realistic. But, you know, a lack of understanding breeds contempt and contempt breeds anti-intellectualism, democracies greatest danger.
 

Joe Shearer

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Democracy is hard to understand, and harder to categorize. It does allow you to hold an opinion based on your beliefs, it doesn't allow you to impose this opinion or belief onto others and expect them to come to the same conclusion as you did.
What needs to be added in some way is that nothing, no majority, no claims of a higher justice other than the corporeal, no other-worldly imperative call, can over-ride the rights of the individual.
 

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