Indonesia Casual Discussion Warkop Indonesia

[HellFireIndo]

Very good review on tank warfare, why losses are normal and do not necessarily mean tanks are obsolete, and how from the very beginning tank vs anti-tank weapons are always evolving in tandem with each other. So the problem lies in the conduct of warfare itself rather than the vulnerabilities of tanks, as good leadership, and troop commanding will prevent substantial losses due to ambushes using AT weapons.

 

[Van Kravchenko]

Perkuat Kedaulatan, Pengamat Sarankan Modernisasi Tank AMX 13-Harimau

Modernisasi alat utama sistem senjata (alutsista) bagi Indonesia telah menjadi hal yang mendesak dan wajib dilakukan TNI AD. - Halaman 1

www.beritasatu.com

Well, its should be MBT tandem with MT. With MT purposed to support infantery and destroy well fortified possition.

Plz take note if put tank with shoot and scoot while on the field its best to reduce looses. Fun fact is, even all Soviet tank users know this yet they still insisted to use tank in stationary or operated in solo. Not play it mobile and within infatry protections

 

[JATOSINT]

Perkuat Kedaulatan, Pengamat Sarankan Modernisasi Tank AMX 13-Harimau

Modernisasi alat utama sistem senjata (alutsista) bagi Indonesia telah menjadi hal yang mendesak dan wajib dilakukan TNI AD. - Halaman 1

www.beritasatu.com

Not sure masih worth it atau gk, upgrade vs ya sabar aja duitnya ditabung dan nunggu produksi Harimau

 

[Umigami]

JACKPOT

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513946349632376833

 

[Lordimperator]

Meme + patriotik + profit

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513903205469462530

 

[HellFireIndo]

JACKPOT

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513946349632376833

NATO Intelligence at play

Honestly, if I'm a Russian general, my amateurish mind would probably prefer to use Artillery more instead. So dig in, make fortification around Kyiv, and unload the shells. This will negate the ability of Ukrainian frontline soldiers to regroup, rendering them unable to do an effective ambush with AT. While heavy artillery being outside of ATGM's effective range will virtually be invulnerable most of the time if logistics and defense planning are good.

The problem with Russian operations so far is that they are like driving tanks straight to the Maginot line. Ukrainians are in defensive positions, static, why use tanks against them? Tanks are supposed to be used against deployed units, not against brick walls. Ukraine being lacking in air defense and mobile units should be exploited, as it means they are unable to neutralize artillery behind the frontline nor make an offensive move head-on.

 

[Madokafc]

NATO Intelligence at play

Honestly, if I'm a Russian general, my amateurish mind would probably prefer to use Artillery more instead. So dig in, make fortification around Kyiv, and unload the shells. This will negate the ability of Ukrainian frontline soldiers to regroup, rendering them unable to do an effective ambush with AT. While heavy artillery being outside of ATGM's effective range will virtually be invulnerable most of the time if logistics and defense planning are good.

The problem with Russian operations so far is that they are like driving tanks straight to the Maginot line. Ukrainians are in defensive positions, static, why use tanks against them? Tanks are supposed to be used against deployed units, not against brick walls. Ukraine being lacking in air defense and mobile units should be exploited, as it means they are unable to neutralize artillery behind the frontline nor make an offensive move head-on.

They intended to do so by day two after failure of Hostomel airport battle, going back to Russian SOP, siege by superiority of their artillery and close their fortified area by steel of ring (armored column and artillery power). The problem lies in the transport of logistic units as they can't secure the highway, repeated harassment from the Woods around their occupied area and more importantly Ukraine flooding the area around Irpin to stalled Russian convoy and forced them to solely using the highway in which Ukraine SOF lying in ambush.

 

[Umigami]

Was battle of Kyiv modern day "Bridge too far" ?

 

[HellFireIndo]

They intended to do so by day two after failure of Hostomel airport battle, going back to Russian SOP, siege by superiority of their artillery and close their fortified area by steel of ring (armored column and artillery power). The problem lies in the transport of logistic units as they can't secure the highway, repeated harassment from the Woods around their occupied area and more importantly Ukraine flooding the area around Irpin to stalled Russian convoy and forced them to solely using the highway in which Ukraine SOF lying in ambush.

I think hostomel has more to do with trying to use it as a frontline airbase, therefore in the interest of the Russian Air Force, rather than the Army. It has equivalent to the Japanese invasion, as the Japanese occupied and used Kalijati airbase to support the invasion in Java, Russia tried to do something like that but was unsuccessful.

Since the early days, Russian artillery was relatively free to operate, and Ukraine was largely unable to counter them. But the way they use artillery in a dispersed manner rather than concentrated bothered me a lot. Even worse, after they run out of rockets, Russian soldiers abandoned the vehicles, this is bad.

My idea apparently has been used in WW2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_troops

"Shock armies had high proportions of infantry, engineers, and field artillery, but with less emphasis on operational mobility and sustainability. Soviet shock armies were characterized by a higher allocation of army-level artillery units to break German defense positions by weight of fire, and often had heavy tank regiments or heavy self-propelled gun regiments to add additional direct fire-support"

 

[Umigami]

Mighty War on Instagram: "Rheinmetall Siap Memasok Leopard 1 Ke Ukraina! Salah satu industri pertahanan terkenal Jerman yaitu Rheinmetall, sedang bersiap untuk memasok hingga 50 tank Leopard 1 bekas ke Ukraina, surat kabar Handelsblatt melaporkan p

889 likes, 101 comments - mightywarr on April 12, 2022: "Rheinmetall Siap Memasok Leopard 1 Ke Ukraina! Salah satu industri pertahanan terkenal Jerman yaitu Rheinmetall, sedang bersiap untuk memasok hingga 50 tank Leopard 1 bekas ke Ukraina, surat kabar Handelsblatt melaporkan pada hari Senin...

www.instagram.com

Ya kalau jadi kita bisa lihat seberapa efektif paper-thin-105mm-medium-tank seperti harimau kita di today modern battlefield.

 

[Madokafc]

Was battle of Kyiv modern day "Bridge too far" ?

More like double double envelopment tactics to me, the Ukraine trade space for time (to gather manpower and resource), creating suitable enviroment to their use (by flooding the Irpin river Banks), inviting the invading power toward their intended area of engagement, thus enveloping the Russian forces by pincer maneuver from their flanks. The Russian can do naught but retreat in which the Ukraine Forces prepared the route and not closing it to prevent pocket of resistance but instead Made numerous ambush site along the roads

 

[Madokafc]

Well they can't repeat it on Mariupol front, because

1, secure line of communication from DPR and LNR areas served as logistic backbone for the siegeing Forces in Mariupol because Mariupol is too close to Russian or pro Russian rebel occupied area, there is nothing to trade between space for time there
2, as typical port Cities Mariupol lack of depth for Defense purpose, the closure of Azov sea by Russian Navy Made it worse
3, Russian seem taking more initiative during the whole duration of battle of Mariupol, they are in more superior position in every way

 

[chibiyabi]

Was battle of Kyiv modern day "Bridge to far" ?

no since the beginning Ukraine already take the control, the key is hostomel clash, its ruin russian plan. Russian forced to change tactics, unfortunatly thats the ukranian waiting for, they create bottle neck, like mado said. Russia forced to use highway that become stretched killing zone, and ukraine targetting logistic transports. its slow russian movement.

 

[Umigami]

Mighty War on Instagram: "Rombongan kendaraan Mowag Piranha V IFV 6x6 milik Angkatan Darat Romania terlihat melintas di jalam Uzhhoror Oblast, Ukraina. Menurut laporan kendaraan kendaraan tersebut merupakan bagian dari sumbangan kendaraan lapis baja

1,467 likes, 196 comments - mightywarr on April 12, 2022: "Rombongan kendaraan Mowag Piranha V IFV 6x6 milik Angkatan Darat Romania terlihat melintas di jalam Uzhhoror Oblast, Ukraina. Menurut laporan kendaraan kendaraan tersebut merupakan bagian dari sumbangan kendaraan lapis baja ke militer...

www.instagram.com

Imagine this as our 30 mm Pandur.

 

[chibiyabi]

Well they can't repeat it on Mariupol front, because

1, secure line of communication from DPR and LNR areas served as logistic backbone for the siegeing Forces in Mariupol because Mariupol is too close to Russian or pro Russian rebel occupied area, there is nothing to trade between space for time there
2, as typical port Cities Mariupol lack of depth for Defense purpose, the closure of Azov sea by Russian Navy Made it worse
3, Russian seem taking more initiative during the whole duration of battle of Mariupol, they are in more superior position in every way

well Ukraine inventory dan capabilities are not so big, its big risk if they put their main capabilities in outer layer area like mariupol

 

[HellFireIndo]

At least Mariupol front entertains us by hosting Chechen vs Azov deathmatch.

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513852005852540930

Terus India ditinggal sendirian?
Apa gara2 minyak Russia itu jadi gak dekat lagi?
Bubarin aja dah Quad nya.

 

[HellFireIndo]

Stolen from Reddit:

Question:

How does Russia use their artillery compared to the US?​

I’ve heard that Russia is an artillery army but can’t find many articles explaining why.
I have also heard the saying “The US maneuvers to fire while Russia fires to maneuver”
How do they use artillery differently?

Answer:

The first difference is in the amount of firepower. For most NATO force, the largest piece of field artillery is 155mm and the largest mortar piece is 120mm. Many don't use MLRS and except for the US army and a few militaries like Turkey and South Korea no other NATO militaries employ tactical ballistic missile such as the MGM-140 or HIMARS. Russian force employs heavier artillery. Russian largest field gun is the 203mm 2S7 Pion which has received an upgrade package December last year and has been seen using it in Ukraine. Their largest mortar is the 240mm Tyuplan which was last seen in combat in 2014-2015, and their army employ a large number of MLRS and tactical ballistic missile such as OTR-21 Tochka.

The second difference is in organization with a Russian unit possessing more artillery than its American equivalent. A current Battalion Tactical Group being deployed in Ukraine only has 800 men at most, but it has one MLRS battery with at least six Grad or TOS-1 and a SPG battery with at least six 122mm Gvozdika or 152mm Msta. An American Brigade Combat Team has five times that number in men, but only has access to twelve 105mm gun and six 155mm gun.

The third difference is tactical employment. For example, if an artillery unit in the American army destroys 30% of enemy strength, the unit is considered to have "annihilated" the enemy; if a Russian artillery unit destroys 30% of enemy unit, it is considered to merely "suppress" the enemy. While the US army considers accuracy of the utmost importance and invests heavily into guided round, the Russian considers such things as "propaganda" that should only be invested to impress the world. In their view, mass, concentrated firepower is the key to victory: it is cheaper, more easy to conduct, less of a hassle to their logistic, and yield a similarly devastating result.

 

[Madokafc]

Sebenarnya sih nungguin clash Chechen Dzokhar Dudayev battalion, Seikh Mansur, Georgia volunteer versus Chechen Tiktok battalion

 

[chibiyabi]

Sebenarnya sih nungguin clash Chechen Dzokhar Dudayev battalion, Seikh Mansur, Georgia volunteer versus Chechen Tiktok battalion

wasitnya Azov batt