WILL UKRAINE WIN PUTIN'S "WAR"?

DAVEBLOGGINS

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WILL UKRAINE WIN PUTIN’S “war”?

This is an opinion piece only by the author for members and not for distribution elsewhere.

Vladimir Putin has made a huge blunder with Ukraine, and Russia, in the end, cannot win this war. Since Russia has taken the city of Lysychansk, Ukraine must enhance critical momentum with its better, Western-sourced weapons. Moscow has failed in its existing objectives, despite enjoying the advantage of surprise on the 24th of February. It was assumed that the Russians would adjust to Ukrainian tactics and capabilities but because of Russia’s incompetence, it will continue to affect their operational performance. Putin ultimately will fail because this enterprise was launched on the basis of a deluded view that Ukraine was a country lacking both a legitimate government and a national identity, and would therefore crumble quickly. On the first day, Putin expected to take down the Ukrainian government and replace it with a puppet president. Even if this plan had succeeded, the Ukrainians would probably have continued to fight against any Russian occupation. If Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky had been killed or captured, the Russians would have instructed a compliant government to invite their forces in to remove any remaining “Nazi” insurgents in Kyiv.

The clear survival of the Zelensky government was the first major setback to Russia’s plans. Their narrative was further undermined when those supposedly being liberated showed a lack of enthusiasm for Russian occupation. This sent a vital message to Ukraine’s supporters in the West; that Russians would face very serious resistance. Volodymyr Zelensky soon developed his own powerful narrative regarding the need for more weapons from the West to defeat the Russian invaders (“I don’t need a ride, I need ammunition”). The need for more and better weapons and ammunition, has been a clear and consistent message since the start of the war. By the 25th of March, when the Russian Ministry of Defence declared it was withdrawing from northern Ukraine to concentrate on the Donbas region, it required a new definition of Russian victory–one that would be less ambitious than the original plan but also more obscure. The consistent objective now is to conquer Luhansk, Donetsk and Kherson, with a view to their eventual annexation to Russia. But not only are they some way from achieving that, it requires an explicit Ukrainian surrender for it to serve as the basis for a declaration of victory. That will not be forthcoming as far as Ukraine is concerned. By contrast, Zelensky has been clear on what he means by a political victory. At a minimum, Russian forces must completely withdraw to positions on the 23rd of February. Preferably the enclaves in Donetsk and Luhansk would be returned to Ukraine. Crimea in principle would also be in play, although politically and militarily that would be a tougher “nut to crack” by Ukraine.

In order to seal Russia’s gains, Putin might offer a ceasefire on the basis of the current distribution of forces. This may be a clever propaganda ploy, but again, that offer would be rejected. The military prospect for Russia therefore, is of a wobbling, stumbling conflict lasting for some time without a definitive conclusion. This will place heavy demands on Russian forces as they will need to cope with a gathering insurgency in the occupied areas. Their hope and expectation is that they still might see a negotiated conclusion. Putin has however, underestimated the resilience of the NATO Western resolve. If anything, the Western position has hardened in recent weeks: since the visit of the German chancellor Olaf Scholz, the French president Emmanuel Macron and the Italian prime minister Mario Draghi to Kyiv on the 16th of June; and then with the European Council, G7 and NATO meetings, all of which produced resounding declarations of stead-fast support for Ukraine. President Biden summed up the results of discussions concerning support for Ukraine at the June NATO summit this way: “We are going to stick with Ukraine, and all of the Alliance is going to stick with Ukraine, as long as it takes, to make sure they are not defeated by Russia.” The commitments from the west have now been made to the point where a Ukrainian defeat will look like a defeat for the whole of NATO.

Nonetheless, denying a Russian victory is not the same thing as achieving a Ukrainian victory. A prolonged war means continuing hardship and a delayed recovery for both Ukraine and the West. Prudently, Western countries are preparing for the long haul. They also note the developing problems facing the Russian economy, but would prefer that this did not turn into a competitive test of endurance. That is why, along with a hardening of political support for Ukraine, there has been an increase in implicit tactical military support. Vital new equipment is swiftly arriving after a difficult period in which the Ukrainian armed forces have keenly felt their lack of firepower. Will it be enough to turn the tide? The battle in Donbas has been tough, with the Ukrainians acknowledging high casualties as they doggedly hold ground. Strategically, this defence made sense as the Russians also paid a high price to take relatively small amounts of territory. Any further advances were delayed because of the time it was taking to get Western equipment to reach the front lines. Kyiv has used its losses to urge Western supporters to move at full tilt, although this push carries risks as it could encourage the view that Ukraine was losing and may not be able to sustain the fight.

This stage of the war is now almost over, with the Russians now in Lysychansk and seeking to complete the occupation of Luhansk. Strategically the Luhansk campaign has been important for the Russians for three reasons. First, to support the Russian claims to the Donbas region. So far, after weeks of effort, this campaign has allowed Russia to take a little more of the country in addition to what was seized on the first days of the war. The second objective was to trap Ukrainian forces. However, as a result of its prudent evacuation, Ukrainian forces preserved the “bulk” of its experienced manpower. The third objective was to support the Kremlin’s narrative that the momentum of the war was swinging towards Russia, so that Western support for Ukraine would be pointless as well as costly. So far, this has not had the desired effect that Putin wanted. Russia now faces an important choice about whether to concentrate on Donetsk or put more effort into defending Kherson, where Ukraine has been making its own advances. It made progress in Luhansk by adopting much more cautious tactics than those on display in the first weeks of the war.

In the second stage of the war, Russian forces will not be able to rely on manoeuverability due to armoured vehicle losses. They have sought to make up for their losses with vehicles from reserves, including, as widely reported, vintage tanks that were in use in the 1960s. New tank production has ground to a halt because of the lack of key components, such as microchips, which have been out-sourced from the West and are now sanctioned. Russia is also running low on stocks of precision guided weapons, evident in some of their recent long-range strikes. It is likely, for example, that it did not intend the deadly attack on the shopping mall in Kremenchuk, and instead had a nearby target in mind, which it also failed to destroy. This demonstrated, in addition to the inaccuracy of its weapons, the general Russian negligence when it comes to collateral damage and their deniability of responsibility for mistakes as always, suggesting that the Ukrainians did this to themselves. The leaders at the G7 meeting helped to boost support for Ukraine, by prompting all members about why it is important that Russia fails. Russia’s response to past troop losses has been to scramble to find more troops where they can. One option for Putin would be to announce a general mobilization but he has been reluctant to do that because he knows how unpopular such a move would be in the Motherland. There are indications of deficiencies though that they are not supposed to be sent to the front. Instead, the aim is to encourage conscripts, and anyone with military experience, to contract into the military, often for financial reward. There is anecdotal evidence that many of those who have been in the thick of the fighting have been looking for ways to get out of their “contracts”.

Russian commanders are increasingly reliant on front-line fighting forces from the enclaves in Donbas, mercenaries from the Wagner Group and volunteers and reserve battalions manned by recently contracted servicemen. The fighting for Severodonetsk was largely undertaken by units from Luhansk, who appear to have suffered dreadfully in the process, and may now appreciate that they are being used as “cannon fodder” by Moscow. Other units are being used for offensive manoeuvers, with the most capable being moved around the battlefield to attempt localized advances. The Ukrainian problem is different. Undoubtedly they have taken heavy casualties, though too much has been made of Zelensky’s lament that they were losing 100 to 200 men per day. This was at the height of the Severodonetsk battle, when Russian artillery was taking a heavy toll on Ukrainian soldiers. As is often the case in the early stages of the war, their most experienced units suffered the most and they will take time to replace. But as Ukraine has mobilized, there is no shortage of personnel and motivation and moral remains high. Unlike the Russians, they are fighting for their homeland. It would still be unwise for Ukrainian defences to push reservists into battles for which they are ill-prepared. In the first stage of the war, Ukraine relied on Soviet-era systems, supplemented by Western supplies of anti-tank and air defence weapons. There are new supplies of old systems – such as T-72 tanks that are well known and have been provided from other former Warsaw Pact countries, which the Ukrainians can bring into service quickly.

In the critical area of artillery, their problems have been shortages in both the pieces and ammunition, with reports of being outgunned by a ratio of ten to one. They have used old Soviet-era systems with 152-millimetre artillery rounds. The NATO standard is 155mm. Other former Warsaw Pact countries have been rummaging through their stocks but it is unclear how much more can be found. This is why the Ukrainians have been so insistent on the need for modern artillery pieces. From their perspective, NATO countries have been late to respond in the eyes of most Ukrainians. The systems have been identified, training is under way, and the first pieces have now reached the front lines where their impact is starting to be felt. Systems such as the French Caesar truck-mounted howitzers, which can mount attacks and then move away with great speed, and the US M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS), currently with a range of 70 kilometers (alternative munitions have longer ranges although these have not yet been provided) are starting to make an impact. These not only have twice the range of the old systems but with pin-point accuracy. Drones continue to play an important role in spotting targets for acquisition with Western allies now supplying more capable drones. An important new capability that the US will be providing is the NASAMS, an advanced surface-to-air missile system, which should further reduce the threat from Russian aircraft and missiles. The Ukranian’s seem to be quickly adapting. It’s an over-simplification but the Russians seem to be becoming more of a 20th-century army while the Ukrainians are becoming more of a 21st-century army. The Ukrainian adaption process will take longer but the prospect is of a much more capable force. The current stage of the war is best understood as a transitional one. The Russians are exploring opportunities to advance, but are preparing to defend; while the Ukrainians are gearing themselves up for counter-offensives. Tactical errors can make a substantial difference whatever the underlying balance of forces, and everything seems to take longer than it should in the minds of either the Russian or Ukrainian senior commanders.

There are three distinct points about the next stage of the war. First, a priority for both sides is now to take out enemy capacity. Part of the frustration for Ukraine up until now has been its limited counter-battery fire, which undermined its ability to deal with Russian artillery. With the new weapons systems arriving, they should be able to more confidently strike Russian artillery. The most valuable targets, however, may be Russian ammunition dumps, and there have been regular reports over the past week of these being hit. Over time, this will degrade the effectiveness of Russian artillery. For their part, the Russians are also anxious to find the incoming Ukrainian kit (including its ammunition stocks) and eliminate it before it can do damage. This requires both good intelligence as well as accurate systems. The Ukrainians are going to great lengths to conceal the weapons and ammunition, moving them regularly and distributing them in small packets. But when you have only a few long-range pieces, however much individually they are more capable than their Russian equivalents, the loss of a few could make a huge difference.

Secondly, the Ukrainian tactics will not replicate those of the Russians when it comes to taking territory. The Russians have advanced by pummeling the areas it wants to occupy. Some of the areas Ukraine wishes to take back have already been ruined and depopulated, and here the tactics may be similar. But other areas, including the vital city of Kherson, are relatively unscathed, and the Russians have based artillery there. Although the city is within artillery range for Ukraine, they will not want to destroy civilian areas. They will therefore have to use different tactics: making the most of the accuracy of their new weapons by concentrating on supply lines, bases and command centers, making opportunistic advances and using guerrilla tactics in the city against the occupying forces, leaving Russian troops uncertain about where the next attack is coming from. Politically, Zelensky will want to show both his people and his Western allies that Ukraine can recover lost territory and start taking the war to the Russians. Hence reports that Ukraine has been striking at a Russian base by the airport in the city of Melitopol. A tangible demonstration of the difference that the new systems can make was seen in the battle for the tiny Snake Island in the Black Sea, not far from the Ukrainian mainland. This was seized by Russia at the start of the war. The Russians brought air defence systems to the island. After a harpoon anti-ship missile destroyed a Russian tugboat delivering weapons and personnel, on the 29th of June, Ukrainian missiles and artillery took out air defence systems deployed on the island. This was not really a surprise. The vulnerability of the island to artillery force had been obvious for some time and it was strange that the Russians kept on putting men and equipment there. On the 30th of June, the Russians bowed to the inevitable and announced a retreat from the island, describing it, somewhat lamely, as a “gesture of goodwill” (a similar claim was made when they retreated from the north).

Thirdly, the Russians are unlikely to keep on fighting should it become clear that they will likely be defeated. One lesson from the Snake Island episode, as well as the withdrawal from Kyiv, is that the Russian commanders can recognize when they are in a losing position and withdraw rather than take unnecessary punishment. Because we have been through a period of slow, grinding advances from Russia there is a tendency to assume that Ukraine will also have to overcome a tenacious Russian defence, and that the third stage may look like the second, except with the roles reversed. This is not as obvious as it may seem. Not only will Ukrainian tactics likely differ but, if they start being pushed back, the Russians will need to decide how much they really want to hold on to territory at the expense of preserving what is left of their army. If the Russian command sees only adverse trends ahead, they may consider the long-term need to maintain their armed forces to deal with future threats other than Ukraine. Russia cannot afford an inch-by-inch retreat to the border, taking losses all the way. At some point they may need to cut their losses. This would be the point at which Russian commanders might urge Putin to engage in serious negotiations (for example, reviving earlier proposals on a form of neutrality in return for full withdrawal) to provide political cover for their withdrawal. The thought of a unilateral Russian withdraw from Ukraine will undoubtedly bring Putin to a frenzy of anger as he has nothing in mind rather than complete victory in Ukraine by his army.

Here’s the bottom line: The one thing that must not happen is allowing Putin to come away as the perceived winner of this war in Ukraine. If that happens, the rules-based global order that has kept the peace among the major powers since World War II will be mortally wounded. Europe will be destabilized for the indefinite future and NATO likely will be forced to defend one or more of its members. So, we need to do whatever is necessary to ensure that Putin knows that he has made a colossal mistake. This is a fight the U.S., Europe and its allies cannot allow Ukraine to lose. The best chance to avoid direct NATO conflict with Russia is to stop being self-deterred by measuring every decision against whether or not Putin will consider it to be escalatory, and provide Ukraine with the capabilities it needs to defeat this Russian invasion. Putin can rattle his nuclear saber all he wants, but no matter how bad his situation becomes at the conventional level, it won’t be improved by using nuclear weapons. Ultimately, NATO may have to fight — if not now to save Ukraine, then later to save itself.

Whether or not we get to this stage is a different matter. The challenge for Ukraine is to develop momentum, to the point where there is no readily available way for it to be reversed by the Russians. This is challenging because the Ukrainians will need to advance by means that do not solely involve direct assaults on Russian positions. Over the next several weeks we should get some sense of whether Ukraine can start to take the initiative and impose its own priorities on Russia rather than the other way round, and how well the Russians are able to respond to the steady improvement of Ukrainian capabilities. Should Ukrainian forces gather any momentum, the situation could move in their favour very quickly. Can the Ukrainians win? Yes. Will the Ukrainians win? It is not yet clear, but the possibility should not be dismissed.
 

UkroTurk

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Too long article, i didn't read but i would say " Ukraine has already won the war".

Because Putin wanted to destroy all nation and country but he couldn't.
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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Too long article, i didn't read but i would say " Ukraine has already won the war".

Because Putin wanted to destroy all nation and country but he couldn't.
Hello UkroTurk. Yes perhaps a bit long but it illustrates where Ukraine & Russia are at right now. I encourage you to take a few miniutes and give it a good read. In my opinion, I believe you may be a bit too optimistic with respect to Ukraine already winning the war. They will have their "ups and downs" along the way but in the end I believe with Western help, they will eventually win this thing hopefully sooner than later.Cheers! ;)
 
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Jagdflieger

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...Putin can rattle his nuclear saber all he wants, but no matter how bad his situation becomes at the conventional level, it won’t be improved by using nuclear weapons. Ultimately, NATO may have to fight — if not now to save Ukraine, then later to save itself....
What makes you so sure? I think that NATO is forwarding/highlighting this as a "saber rattling" issue, because they clearly wouldn't be able to react in whatever way.

NATO failed miserably in regards to preventing Putin from attacking again in 2022. Now they are talking about 300,000 men rapid deployment force - something that NATO should have done latest since 2014. And will take years to complete - if ever.

Personally i do not believe that Putin overestimated his military capabilities in regards to Ukraine. (NATO willingness to supply weapons in case of a prolonged war - yes I think he did) since a prolonged war wasn't his objective or calculation.
Anyone knowledgeable in the military - knows, knew that it takes a million men to take down a country like Ukraine.

Putin doesn't have a million men and yet he attacked - because he is stupid? certainly not, but because he was counting/expecting onto a political coup in Kiev to take place within the first 2 weeks of his attack.
For whatever reason this coup obviously didn't take place. Since then he regrouped his forces concentrating on the the Eastern and Southern part of Ukraine, independent of unknown losses (estimates range from 20000 - 40000. (most likely the Ukraine losses are on the same scale) but undeniably successfully on the Russian part having occupied 20-25% of Ukrainian territory.

So far I have not noticed viable steps by NATO to actually ensure the safety of the Baltic States. If Putin should be successful in regards to Ukraine - logically the Baltic States will be his next target. IMO upon having Ukraine and the Baltic States Putin will not go further since then he would meet with a real and capable NATO that is geographically already in place - far more then presently.

Okay, back to Ukraine - Putin got into this war because he will never accept a NATO controlled Ukraine due to military and economic reasons. He is as ruthless as Biden is and many other heads of State, if it comes to war and winning a war. The USA didn't (sorry) give a shit as to the millions or hundreds of thousand of Vietnamese and Iraqi's or Afghan civilians getting killed. If at the time the EU and other countries would have imposed sanctions onto the USA, the Vietnam war might have come to an end after 2 years. - just maybe.

So Putin being ruthless - and under no circumstances be willing to lose Ukraine to NATO - at the end mushroom clouds are going to come up. And NATO will yield - since no one (besides some hawks in the US and Polish government) will be willing to get into an escalating nuclear war taking place on NATO territory.

The only question remaining to me is - when will NATO be ready to act as a conventional force with nukes backing them up (just as during the Cold war) to prevent Putin from going into the Baltic's in the first place? 2 years? 4 years?.

BTW, the main reason for the British to win the Falklands war - was due to Thatchers threat of using nukes on the Argentine mainland in the event of Argentine forces attacking the inbound British transport fleet. Obviously she, respectively her threat was taken serious by the then Argentine government.

And according to many trustworthy sources the Yom Kippur war shares a similar history. Not to mention the mother of all nuclear threats - the Cuba crisis.
 
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Quasar

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-War Economy /ability to replace losses both material and man.
-logistics
-either qualitative or quantitative edge over enemy
-geograpy
-competent military leadership and command structure
-concentration or distribution of your forces
-psychological aspect


Even concerning the very basic requirments for a victory. Russian has no CLEAR advantage over Ukraine in a prolonged war.
 

Jagdflieger

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-War Economy /ability to replace losses both material and man.
Russia clearly has an advantage on that part
-logistics
No issue in Southern Ukraine or Western Russia
-either qualitative or quantitative edge over enemy
Presently both suck and are facing a stalemate
-geograpy
?
-competent military leadership and command structure't
I don't see that on either side
-concentration or distribution of your forces
Russian combat forces all along the front line - just as the Ukrainians, and both vast parts of their Armed Forces actually spread throughout the country
-psychological aspect
The dying/losses part applies to both - but the Ukrainians presently can't show for any significant gains and their country is being daily bombed and shelled to ruins
So i would rather tend towards Ukrainians having a psychological issue then those Russians.
Even concerning the very basic requirments for a victory. Russian has no CLEAR advantage over Ukraine in a prolonged war.
True, as long as NATO keeps supporting Ukraine in the present manner it is going to be a prolonged stalemate - with continued destruction of Ukraine territory and it's population for years or at least a year to come. And Putin is continuously testing NATO's resolve. - especially in regards to economic issues.
Russians are used to suffering or even a shitty live - Western Europeans? no way, once their Summer holiday and BBQ is in question - their goes their resolve.
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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What makes you so sure? I think that NATO is forwarding/highlighting this as a "saber rattling" issue, because they clearly wouldn't be able to react in whatever way.

NATO failed miserably in regards to preventing Putin from attacking again in 2022. Now they are talking about 300,000 men rapid deployment force - something that NATO should have done latest since 2014. And will take years to complete - if ever.

Personally i do not believe that Putin overestimated his military capabilities in regards to Ukraine. (NATO willingness to supply weapons in case of a prolonged war - yes I think he did) since a prolonged war wasn't his objective or calculation.
Anyone knowledgeable in the military - knows, knew that it takes a million men to take down a country like Ukraine.

Putin doesn't have a million men and yet he attacked - because he is stupid? certainly not, but because he was counting/expecting onto a political coup in Kiev to take place within the first 2 weeks of his attack.
For whatever reason this coup obviously didn't take place. Since then he regrouped his forces concentrating on the the Eastern and Southern part of Ukraine, independent of unknown losses (estimates range from 20000 - 40000. (most likely the Ukraine losses are on the same scale) but undeniably successfully on the Russian part having occupied 20-25% of Ukrainian territory.

So far I have not noticed viable steps by NATO to actually ensure the safety of the Baltic States. If Putin should be successful in regards to Ukraine - logically the Baltic States will be his next target. IMO upon having Ukraine and the Baltic States Putin will not go further since then he would meet with a real and capable NATO that is geographically already in place - far more then presently.

Okay, back to Ukraine - Putin got into this war because he will never accept a NATO controlled Ukraine due to military and economic reasons. He is as ruthless as Biden is and many other heads of State, if it comes to war and winning a war. The USA didn't (sorry) give a shit as to the millions or hundreds of thousand of Vietnamese and Iraqi's or Afghan civilians getting killed. If at the time the EU and other countries would have imposed sanctions onto the USA, the Vietnam war might have come to an end after 2 years. - just maybe.

So Putin being ruthless - and under no circumstances be willing to lose Ukraine to NATO - at the end mushroom clouds are going to come up. And NATO will yield - since no one (besides some hawks in the US and Polish government) will be willing to get into an escalating nuclear war taking place on NATO territory.

The only question remaining to me is - when will NATO be ready to act as a conventional force with nukes backing them up (just as during the Cold war) to prevent Putin from going into the Baltic's in the first place? 2 years? 4 years?.

BTW, the main reason for the British to win the Falklands war - was due to Thatchers threat of using nukes on the Argentine mainland in the event of Argentine forces attacking the inbound British transport fleet. Obviously she, respectively her threat was taken serious by the then Argentine government.

And according to many trustworthy sources the Yom Kippur war shares a similar history. Not to mention the mother of all nuclear threats - the Cuba crisis.
Hello Jagdflieger. You "obviously" have a deep appreciation/love for what Putin and his 'thugs" are doing in Ukraine. But what you and your "Pal" have failed to see is the complete resolve of the Ukrainian people who are vigorously defending their home and country. It is that resolve that will eventually complete Putins defeat and Ukraine's victory. This will be Ukraine's victory and not the West's or NATO. This aggression first started with a democratic country wishing to be part of the EU or NATO as a minimum with an autocratic government wishing to go back to the old Soviet times which will never happen (the Russian people will not allow it). Putin's ego will eventually get the better of him. Yes, the West and NATO allies are vigorously helping Ukraine with updated weapon systems to give Putin "pause". NATO does not want to be part of this war, but their resolve has been inspired by President Zolinsky and the Ukranian people. In my own opinion, Ukraine does not want to be part of NATO but wishes to be free to practice their own form of democracy and be part of the Western culture, and this will happen sooner rather than later. NATO countries will never let Putin take the Baltic states. Their own charter says so. Eventually the Russian prople will see through Putin's plans and ensure he does not succeed. Cheers! 😊
 

Jagdflieger

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Hello Jagdflieger. You "obviously" have a deep appreciation/love for what Putin and his 'thugs" are doing in Ukraine. But what you and your "Pal" have failed to see is the complete resolve of the Ukrainian people who are vigorously defending their home and country......
In contra to you I am simply analyzing a war situation. Independent of wrong and right since it is needless to state that Putin started this war.

What you and the "comedian" in Kiev are doing - stating, is pure Goebbels rhetoric.

The normal Ukrainian or Russian farmer or clerk has no say in this matter and the respective individuals resolve to "fight for his freedom" is given on both sides. Independent of being propagated via a democratic or autocratic government. Both sides do not want to be subdued by an outside power. In the case for the Ukrainians it's Moscow and for the Russians it's Washington using Ukraine - unfortunately due to NATO's and Ukraine's ultimate military preparation failure - Ukraine has now become the battlefield for month or years to come.
 
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Manomed

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In contra to you I am simply analyzing a war situation. Independent of wrong and right since it is needless to state that Putin started this war.

What you and the "comedian" in Kiev are doing - stating, is pure Goebbels rhetoric.

The normal Ukrainian or Russian farmer or clerk has no say in this matter and the respective individuals resolve to "fight for his freedom" is given on both sides. Independent of being propagated via a democratic or autocratic government. Both sides do not want to be subdued by an outside power. In the case for the Ukrainians it's Moscow and for the Russians it's Washington using Ukraine - unfortunately due to NATO's and Ukraine's ultimate military preparation failure - Ukraine has now become the battlefield for month or years to come.
ok bro we get it russia is the best country and they should annex europe and turkey. lmao
 
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Manomed

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In contra to you I am simply analyzing a war situation. Independent of wrong and right since it is needless to state that Putin started this war.

What you and the "comedian" in Kiev are doing - stating, is pure Goebbels rhetoric.

The normal Ukrainian or Russian farmer or clerk has no say in this matter and the respective individuals resolve to "fight for his freedom" is given on both sides. Independent of being propagated via a democratic or autocratic government. Both sides do not want to be subdued by an outside power. In the case for the Ukrainians it's Moscow and for the Russians it's Washington using Ukraine - unfortunately due to NATO's and Ukraine's ultimate military preparation failure - Ukraine has now become the battlefield for month or years to come.
Even with failed "Nato Military" basic western equipment was able to mess up your so called best armies equipments from cold war.

We know how shitty VKS and Every branch of Russia now.

During 2015 you russian lovers were talking about Invading Turkey etc yeah good luck we have a real air force and a army that would have sent your Ivans to hell.
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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In contra to you I am simply analyzing a war situation. Independent of wrong and right since it is needless to state that Putin started this war.

What you and the "comedian" in Kiev are doing - stating, is pure Goebbels rhetoric.

The normal Ukrainian or Russian farmer or clerk has no say in this matter and the respective individuals resolve to "fight for his freedom" is given on both sides. Independent of being propagated via a democratic or autocratic government. Both sides do not want to be subdued by an outside power. In the case for the Ukrainians it's Moscow and for the Russians it's Washington using Ukraine - unfortunately due to NATO's and Ukraine's ultimate military preparation failure - Ukraine has now become the battlefield for month or years to come.
Being a "Comedian" at one time does not make President Zolynsky a Nazi as you seem to be implying. Being a magalomatic, power hungry, un-hinged "person" however is something quite different. Kind of remiinds me of a certain "ex-U.S. president" though, eh?. The West is committed though to UkraIne. "What ever it takes" as President Biden has said.:)
 

Jagdflieger

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Being a "Comedian" at one time does not make President Zolynsky a Nazi as you seem to be implying. Being a magalomatic, power hungry, un-hinged "person" however is something quite different. Kind of remiinds me of a certain "ex-U.S. president" though, eh?. The West is committed though to UkraIne. "What ever it takes" as President Biden has said.:)
I didn't state that Selensky is a Nazi - I stated that your previous stated opinion and that of the "comedian" is pure Goebbels rhetoric - simply deflecting from the actual military and war situation. As for Dumb Trump and Putin - well both behold - USA ah.. Russia first, and make strong again.

Biden isn't any better in that regard - after all he is American and knows about the average American citizens/voters wishes and dreams. He is just less abrasive in his vocabulary. The goals and visions are the same.

But we will see if NATO/EU starts to drop out, and if the USA will then be willing to carry on, on it's own. (okay plus Poland :))
 

DAVEBLOGGINS

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I didn't state that Selensky is a Nazi - I stated that your previous stated opinion and that of the "comedian" is pure Goebbels rhetoric - simply deflecting from the actual military and war situation. As for Dumb Trump and Putin - well both behold - USA ah.. Russia first, and make strong again.

Biden isn't any better in that regard - after all he is American and knows about the average American citizens/voters wishes and dreams. He is just less abrasive in his vocabulary. The goals and visions are the same.

But we will see if NATO/EU starts to drop out, and if the USA will then be willing to carry on, on it's own. (okay plus Poland :))
I see. Some interesting thoughts. Enough said.
 

Gary

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I agree on one thing, if NATO pulls out its support, Ukraine will be rolled over sooner/later. But by the time it happened, Russia will be so weak , nobody will take them seriously anymore.
 

Jagdflieger

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I agree on one thing, if NATO pulls out its support, Ukraine will be rolled over sooner/later. But by the time it happened, Russia will be so weak , nobody will take them seriously anymore.
Okay - let's assume that might be the case.

So Russia takes all of Ukraine - then the EU with it's democratic and humanitarian layout will watch 35 million Ukrainians living/starving in misery in their bombed out houses with no intact infrastructure no water, electricity and economy? and let the remaining 10 million Ukrainian's live in their countries for the next decades?

145 million Russians having a miserable life - trillions of $ previously invested by EU countries and others in Russia for nothing? simply ignoring a market with 145 million potential consumers? - come on don't kid yourself - business is business and politics blah blah is politics.

And that is exactly what Putin is counting on - the EU can't ignore/sanction a Ukraine and a Russia with almost 200 million people. And controlling aside from Russia's natural resources also those of the Ukraine.

Unless NATO really gets involved in this war a pronto - via at minimum with a serious supply in regards to SAM, MLRS, MBT's and a combat effective Ukrainian Air-force - Russia will have the longer breath at least until spring next year - upon which the EU will be economically in shambles resulting in a considerable change of it's political establishment as well.
That "revolution" is going to happen in the West way ahead of the one "hoped for" in Russia.

Oh in regards to business: latest news from Germany; NASA and Russia are cooperating again and plan to send astronauts/cosmonauts to ISS from September onward. The Russian chap who now heads Roskosmos is Vize-Minister Juri Borissow an outspoken Ukraine war advocate and former head of Russia's military industrial complex. The reason from US side "we can't leave Space to the Chinese" :)
 
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