If war broke out between Morocco and Algeria.

[Gary]

Sorry for late reply, your reply kinda got sink under other notifications. Never realized till yesterday.

Algeria for sure will not use iskander to hit the Moroccan Abrams ...It is clearly intended to strike the Moroccan military installations/Fortifications/air defense radars/artillery positions/runways/....etc that are located near the borders of Algeria which most of them are located within the limits of 200 km from the Algerian border

Yup

..So there is no need to compare Iskander with Jdam, because every one of them has a different operational role.

I'm not really comparing JDAM to Iskander TBM, actually I'm pointing the versatility of fighter jets to that of ballistic missiles, you kinda miss the whole point

.and Algeria also possesses its guided air munitions Including standoff ALCM missile Which can hit Moroccan sites without entering the range of the F-16 and the range of Moroccan defenses

Yes

.....as for the scenario of war the real battlefield will not be in the North, but rather in the South In the heart of the disputed zone and Where most of the Moroccan military installations are located...

As for the Moroccan military bases behind the Atlas Mountains , specifically the Ben Jarir air base, which hosts the F-16 squadrons The distance from southern Algeria is 300 km ....It is much less than that for the kilo submarines And the Algerian Navy, which will flank the morrocan army from the other side of the atlantic

That is if the Kilo's could pass Morocco's ASW net in the Gibraltar.
The other thing to consider, if Morocco detects Algeria's Kilo suddenly goes out to sea. If they felt something bad is impending they could disperse their jets out of harms way.

View attachment 45519

Ben Jarir air base and Sidi Yahya air defense base, can be targeted by caliber from the Mediterranean or the Atlantic

See post above

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I can give you satellite photos of most of the Moroccan military bases, most of which are located within the range of Algerian weapons

As for the F-16? It's funny how you consider that a handful of f-16 fighters ...that was previously shut down by Sam-6 and Manpads

There are more Sukhoi getting shot by Manpads than F-16s ever.

is Capable of penetrating a country with the size of two million square kilometers like algeria ...without being detected and destroyed .. you really Makes me feel like we're going to face NATO forces ..

I never assured anyone here that the Morrocans able to do that. But its best not to underestimate anyone.

When Morocco buys those AGM-88s the US also trained them how to use one.

honestly even if we admit the superiority of American fighters against russian one... Morocco does not have a quarter of the American capabilities in ISR/AWACS Capabilities to Dealing with the Algerian IADS And with the numerically superior Algerian Air Force Which is also not that bad technically against a 4th+ generation fighter ..

So do both of you. Hence I guess that both will be forced into Ukraine style stalemate in the air

I think you are really underestimating Algeria's air defense capabilities So let me give you litle overview of it to make the comparison more reasonable

Russian air defense systems of Algeria

+Polyana-D4M1 C4ISR complex + Acacia-E Airspace Management System + S-400

Для неназванного иностранного заказчика (судя по номеру договора комиссии Р/201202131986 от 28.07.2013 это Алжир, код по Общероссийскому классифкатору «012») заказано два (первоначально было три) фургона в иной комплектации КК6.2.31.1.001-03 на базе КАМАЗ-6350 с поставкой в марте этого года. На их базе будут изготовлены изделия МП06РПМ (пункт боевого управления комплекса «Поляна-Д4М1»).

View attachment 45525

Rezonans N/NE very long-range Surveillance Radar “Stealth Air Target Early Warning Radar

View attachment 45527

USA made Radar in service of algerian army + raytheon C4ISR /C5I Systems

AN/TPS-78 and TPS-703 Solid-State Tactical Mobile Radar Systems

View attachment 45528​

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AN/TPS-78HM High Mobility

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from china

CETC YLC-8B long-range anti-stealth radar system

View attachment 45532


The electronic warfare capabilities of the Algerian army, which are unparalleled in Africa

The ELINC EW CHL-906 / 806 / FKD-900 / LDK-190 ground-based offensive electronic system
used for jamming enemy aircraft. The system comes with impressive Ranges : For Recon more than 600 Km & Jamming 300 Km.

View attachment 45534 View attachment 45535 View attachment 45536
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Kvant 1L222 Avtobaza ELINT system - Kvant SPN-4 High Power X-Band Radar jamming station - DWL002 passive detection radar

View attachment 45539

Algerian Electronic Warfare/ISR Command and Control Center and Satellite photo of the site which is still under construction


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I concur, Algeria's AD are one of the most sophisticated and dense in Africa. That will be a herculean task for the RMAF to deal with.

But its not impossible. The Iranians, Israeli and actually the Ukrainians recently has demonstrated that it is very possible to penetrate those air defense bubbles.

There's a saying in WW2. "The Bombers will always get through"

And this applies too for Algerian bombers trying to penetrate Morocco 's air defense

 

[Jagdflieger]

Algeria versus Morocco?

Ahh... clearly Morocco, since the USA will back them, no matter what.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Sorry for late reply, your reply kinda got sink under other notifications. Never realized till yesterday.

Yup

I'm not really comparing JDAM to Iskander TBM, actually I'm pointing the versatility of fighter jets to that of ballistic missiles, you kinda miss the whole point

Yes



That is if the Kilo's could pass Morocco's ASW net in the Gibraltar.
The other thing to consider, if Morocco detects Algeria's Kilo suddenly goes out to sea. If they felt something bad is impending they could disperse their jets out of harms way.

See post above



There are more Sukhoi getting shot by Manpads than F-16s ever.

I never assured anyone here that the Morrocans able to do that. But its best not to underestimate anyone.

When Morocco buys those AGM-88s the US also trained them how to use one.


So do both of you. Hence I guess that both will be forced into Ukraine style stalemate in the air

I concur, Algeria's AD are one of the most sophisticated and dense in Africa. That will be a herculean task for the RMAF to deal with.

But its not impossible. The Iranians, Israeli and actually the Ukrainians recently has demonstrated that it is very possible to penetrate those air defense bubbles.

There's a saying in WW2. "The Bombers will always get through"

And this applies too for Algerian bombers trying to penetrate Morocco 's air defense

Now as we speaking the main base that host moroccan f16 is the ben guirer base, close to marrakech. Thats aproximentaly 500 km + from algerian mainland. morocco already operate AGM-88s btw. I think we all been witness to the wars that have been taken place in azerbaijan, syria and ukraina. Both armenia, and russia operate the same structure as algeria. Algeria have alot of pantsirs, tors, and s300. ( also Hq-9/ reportedly s400) The 36 tb2 of the moroccan air force would do a good job against this threats.

 

[Chakib larbi]

Algeria versus Morocco?

Ahh... clearly Morocco, since the USA will back them, no matter what.

But They won't, and they won't risk it only if they want to see the Russians and even the Chinese in the western Mediterranean and to close maritime traffic in the western Mediterranean and to threaten energy supplies to Europe.....Besides, we are not enemies of western countries, quite the opposite ... We are a factor of stability and guarantee of Western interests in the southern Mediterranean....the only intervention of the international community in such a war is to put pressure on Algeria and Morocco together To end the war because the West will not accept such war and instability at the gates of Europe....But Israel damn it will support them

 

[Jagdflieger]

But They won't, and they won't risk it only if they want to see the Russians and even the Chinese in the western Mediterranean and to close maritime traffic in the western Mediterranean and to threaten energy supplies to Europe.....Besides, we are not enemies of western countries, quite the opposite ... We are a factor of stability and guarantee of Western interests in the southern Mediterranean....the only intervention of the international community in such a war is to put pressure on Algeria and Morocco together To end the war because the West will not accept such war and instability at the gates of Europe....But Israel damn it will support them

I might be very wrong since I have not been to that part of the world. (North-Africa) - aside as a tourist to Tunisia.
1st. Morocco is AFAIK the only USA friendly nation in the entire African continent - not so sure about Kenya though.
2nd. Algeria's government isn't viewed favorably by the USA or the EU - you know democracy etc. but Morocco is - thanks to the USA.
3rd. Algeria itself is politically and economically far more aligned to Russia and China - then to the USA.

Off course it will also depend onto who started or provoked a war between Algeria and Morocco.
But even then I can't imagine the USA willing to lose it's only friend in Africa. And in regards to "assumed" US hegemony - Morocco is an ideal place to exert power over Northern and Western Africa. The Mediterranean area is already well covered via NATO.

So ask yourself (you should know better then me) is the USA regarding Algeria as a can be friend or rather politically as a thorn in their shoes?

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

I might be very wrong since I have not been to that part of the world. (North-Africa) - aside as a tourist to Tunisia.
1st. Morocco is AFAIK the only USA friendly nation in the entire African continent - not so sure about Kenya though.
2nd. Algeria's government isn't viewed favorably by the USA or the EU - you know democracy etc. but Morocco is - thanks to the USA.
3rd. Algeria itself is politically and economically far more aligned to Russia and China - then to the USA.

Off course it will also depend onto who started or provoked a war between Algeria and Morocco.
But even then I can't imagine the USA willing to lose it's only friend in Africa. And in regards to "assumed" US hegemony - Morocco is an ideal place to exert power over Northern and Western Africa. The Mediterranean area is already well covered via NATO.

So ask yourself (you should know better then me) is the USA regarding Algeria as a can be friend or rather politically as a thorn in their shoes?

Alot of valid points. I just want to add something. Morocco hold a neutral approach when it deals with both russia, and China. Even tho algeria is perhaps the best friends of the russians, does not mean that russia is going all inn against morocco. They actually wanted to establish a logistic center in morocco recently because of the sanctions, and not their friends in the east. The same goes for china, they are supplying both countries weapons and hold a neutral approach.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Alot of valid points. I just want to add something. Morocco hold a neutral approach when it deals with both russia, and China. Even tho algeria is perhaps the best friends of the russians, does not mean that russia is going all inn against morocco. They actually wanted to establish a logistic center in morocco recently because of the sanctions, and not their friends in the east. The same goes for china, they are supplying both countries weapons and hold a neutral approach.

I agree, the Russians due to maybe a lack in US$ and economic prowess are simply not able to stir political issues anymore that might even result into a war outside their territory, as such they try to maintain business/political relationships to form a kind of anti-western - USA bloc.

China isn't interested in war at all - and certainly not into getting into other countries wars, (which doesn't stop them from selling military stuff) but trade and economics are their game - whereby both usually result automatically in a positive-natural relationship. Which in turn some countries find threatening.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

I agree, the Russians due to maybe a lack in US$ and economic prowess are simply not able to stir political issues anymore that might even result into a war outside their territory, as such they try to maintain business/political relationships to form a kind of anti-western - USA bloc.

China isn't interested in war at all - and certainly not into getting into other countries wars, (which doesn't stop them from selling military stuff) but trade and economics are their game - whereby both usually result automatically in a positive-natural relationship. Which in turn some countries find threatening.

Im with you on the points you have made. My comment was simply to give a glance on the «allies» of Algeria. Chakib really thinks that china and the russians would support them in a brink of war. Such a huge fairy tale statement. The russians would have no place in rhe mediterranean, they already struggling in the black sea, and china have good relations with both parts.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Im with you on the points you have made. My comment was simply to give a glance on the «allies» of Algeria. Chakib really thinks that china and the russians would support them in a brink of war. Such a huge fairy tale statement. The russians would have no place in rhe mediterranean, they already struggling in the black sea, and china have good relations with both parts.

Russia maybe would like to - but they simply ain't capable and China will not get involved - they will rather try to negotiate with Morocco and Algeria to stop such a war - since it's hurting their business

This scenario Algeria contra Morocco - IMO will involve the USA - so better for Algeria to concentrate on it's peaceful development.

Anyway, I forgot to ask who of the two is supposed to want to go to war?

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Russia maybe would like to - but they simply ain't capable and China will not get involved - they will rather try to negotiate with Morocco and Algeria to stop such a war - since it's hurting their business

This scenario Algeria contra Morocco - IMO will involve the USA - so better for Algeria to concentrate on it's peaceful development.

Anyway, I forgot to ask who of the two is supposed to want to go to war?

I dont think the russians would go all inn against morocco. Morocco have always held a neutral stance to the problem occuring between russia and the west, but also the ukraina crises. Without a doubt they would not let the algerians down, and supply them with weapons. It would be much better for algeria to open the diplomatic channels, and boost the relations with morocco, but they went the other way because of the sahara issue. Lets put it the other way, algeria lost the sahara and access to atlantic occean so they will stay buthurt for eternity. Algeria are very hostile publicy, but both countries know the reality on the ground. I dont think a full war will every happen very soon, but i can assume that we will see clashes perhaps after 2030. Morocco still have some land claims in the east of algeria.

 

[Jagdflieger]

I dont think the russians would go all inn against morocco. Morocco have always held a neutral stance to the problem occuring between russia and the west, but also the ukraina crises. Without a doubt they would not let the algerians down, and supply them with weapons. It would be much better for algeria to open the diplomatic channels, and boost the relations with morocco, but they went the other way because of the sahara issue. If you ask that question to both countries then both will blame that the other country is to hostile. Lets put it the other way, algeria lost the sahara and access to atlantic occean so they will stay buthurt for eternity. Algeria are very hostile publicy, but both countries know the reality on the ground.

Presently yes, but if Russia would have the ability ($) to do so, I think they would - simply in order to draw the USA into a conflict that would cost them $ and sympathy. I think that Russia was rather happy about the USA/NATO and UN announcing their war in Afghanistan = after all it cost them a shitload of money for nothing.
I am quite convinced that a lot of countries will try to get out of this USA/NATO contra Russia and China issue. But rather concentrate on their economy and trade issues. Well maybe I am too optimistic

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Presently yes, but if Russia would have the ability ($) to do so, I think they would - simply in order to draw the USA into a conflict that would cost them $ and sympathy. I think that Russia was rather happy about the USA/NATO and UN announcing their war in Afghanistan = after all it cost them a shitload of money for nothing.
I am quite convinced that a lot of countries will try to get out of this USA/NATO contra Russia and China issue. But rather concentrate on their economy and trade issues. Well maybe I am too optimistic

You have a good point. Russia actually tried to use algeria to draw the us into a conflict, but during the cold war the US refused to give weapons to morocco, because they feared it would spark a war in north africa. The cold war mentality
Still affects us untill today. Algeria need to change its policies, because they are becoming more and more isolated everyday. I hope a solution will take place for the wellbeing of the 2 brotherly countries.

 

[Jagdflieger]

You have a good point. Russia actually tried to use algeria to draw the us into a conflict, but during the cold war the us refused to give weapons to morocco, because they feared it would spark a war in north africa. The cold war mentality
Still affects us untill today. Algeria need to change its policies, because they are becoming more and more isolated everyday. I hope a solution will take place for the wellbeing of the 2 brotherly countries.

Do Morocco and Algeria speak the same lingo?

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Do Morocco and Algeria speak the same lingo?

We speak the same language, the algerians are our twin brothers. If we look at the history we where always one people under the multiple empires/dynasties. This is perhaps the most self destructive conflict. I will quote something that the late king hassan 2 said in the 80s. He mentioned in a speech that «outside powers» are trying to destabilise our region, and ruin our relationship between each other. When he talked about algeria he basically was not refering to their millitary junta that rules their country, but rather the powers who rule this leaders back in algeria. Thats the opinion that is still relevant today, and many moroccans believe in that idea. The way they been ruling their country for the last 50 years, and the civil war in algeria that took the lifes of 350 000 algerians by their millitary speaks volume for itself. I dont see any change in the relations unless one state overpower the other either in terms of millitary capabilities or economic power. This is a issue since even before the 1963 sand war. Even if countries like france and germany have moved on from their issues in the wold wars when millions got killed, they still have some form of cooperation but the twin brothers cant. Its very strange, but at the same
Time we moroccans are aware of the reason of this issues.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Hm... very interesting indeed, I always had the impression that both countries are very much related with each other. But somehow run very differently on the political - governmental-social level. The easy going Moroccan's contra the more conservative Algerian's.
A bit like Bavarian's and German's.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

I remember you once mentioned the balance of power between Morocco and Algeria. Here is an old thread that you can check out.

@BaburKhan