TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[Gemn]

I know these history in details but i don't understand what part of my post you are disputing.

And i think you misunderstood my comment. Growing spine is not meant to be in sense of national entity. ( which turkey has better than any other muslim country ) but in the sense of greater geopolitical struggle and in term of great power competition. ( in a broader sense, Turkey took a relatively independent foreign policy only for the last one or two decade.)

And I think, i have more than enough respect for turkey and its people. you don't have to be to nationalistic about it ( fun fact, personally I have a deep and strong turkic ancestry in my veins. However, that's not the reason for my respect. I don't think pan ethnicity is a good idea in 21th century ) And Yes, one of the important attributes of turkey that, it is the only country in muslim world that never been colonized physically. Probably only three major countries in the world has that privilege. UK russia and turkey. And to understand the significance of the implications of that privilege, one only has to look at other two countries.

The uk was basically the forehead of the English speaking world in 18th and 19th century and world biggest superpower and relatively at a large extent the the center of the western civilization and still is one the few core of west. And in case of russia. Until the 1990 it was the world second superpower and the center of the independent civilization. ( Even though they lost but never the less they rivaled the west for sometimes. )

So in that sense. no wonder how much significant turkey hold among muslim country. Hundred years ago turkey was center of islamic civilization. And it is the only country in the muslim world that were able to survive the destruction of colonization. Every other muslim nations were havoced in socio-cultural and socio economical domain. So it is not surprising at all that, everybody will be looking for a 'turkish model'. Everybody will want partnership and cooperation with turkey in technology economy and trade. I don't know if you find it problematic, but I think it's very natural. WITH GREATER POWER COMES GREATER RESPONSIBILITY. And it is equally true for everybody regardless of every nation.

You said bangladesh has population of 170 million and then concluded what we should ect, ect. You are comparing bangladesh in reference to what ? Turkey ? It is true that, bangladesh has twice of turkish population but our is half of the turkish gdp. But this kind of straight forward comparison is tremendously flawed because it doesn't take into account the historical context of the compared countries.

For example, in the same logic it can be argued 'turkey should have on per with germany in term of economy and technology when it has similar population size and bigger land mass and relatively more natural resources than germany and most importantly unlike germany it wasn't havoced by world war two. But turkish economy only one fifth of german one. Or it can be said turkey has nearly twice the population of south Korea but it's ecomony less than of of Korean economy despite the fact korea was havoced by japanese invasion prior world war ii and later by the korean war. These are all dumb comparison because it doesn't take everything into account.

But if we wanna have a fair comparison between turkey and Bangladesh it will look like that. Firstly, Geographically turkey has much bigger landscape and much more natural resources than bangladesh. Now, let's talk about last hundred year. After world War I and turkish independent war for nearly last hundred years turkey had relative stability no war on its soil and probably had only one major natural disaster ( 1939 Erizincan earthquake with 32000 casualties ) and in last 70 years around 100k people died in earthquakes in turkey.

and what happened with bangladesh? World war one.
Than in world war ii, 1. bangladesh was the near Frontline against brutal japanese. And that's wasn't enough already.
2. British created bengal femine at the same time which killed 4 to 5 million bengali.
3. And then the subcontinent independent.
4. And then 1965 war.
5. And then 1970 world most deadliest cyclone in history left nearly one milion Bangladeshi dead.
6. And then 1971 independent war which killed another million.
And then 1974 femine which killed another million.
7. And then in 1990 world second deadliest cyclone.
And these are just human casualties forget about the properties that has been lost! Every renowned economist and the experts in the world were dead sure bangladesh won't survive as a nation. It is simply not possible after everything that happened. it just going to collapse. And that's what they said that time over and over again.

You see, probably no other nation in the world faced what we faced in last 75 years And yet here we are in 2021

last but not the least where did you find the idea that I am expecting turks to do all the fighting and dying? Did bangladesh told turkey to intervene in syria and libya? No! Turkey did its own for its own interests. And please don't pretend that turkey is the only who do all the fighting for good. Why do you think bangladesh has the 1st place in UN peacekeeping mission? There are way more larger nations are larger and powerful military out there! And yet by and large we have the most contributions. Over the decades In africa bangladesh peacekeepers at least by and large prevented two wars which could have killed hundreds of thousands of africans. At least, in syria and libya turkey has major geopolitical interests along with the humanitarian causes but what interest we have in africa ?
So I think you can have some respect for us too.

Good comment. Excellent post.

 

[Afif]

Its funny to see only erdogan supporters here are non turks arabs-albanians-bangladeshis says a lot about our current status.

Also lets not forget countless pakistani extremist brought to Turkey to defend islamist goverment.

I can't take this stuff anymore really while we are suffering under this people who doesn't even live here have audacity to lecture us.

Lets not forget precious erdogan and süleyman soylu are running a drug operation.

I have some interest in turkish foreign policy but zero interest in turkish internal politics. Where did you get the idea i am fan of turkish current government or the president ? Please don't try too take moral high ground by acting too civilized and calling us 'islamist' or whatever that means.

 

[borchadinho]

Not really
Just listen to the interview and you will realise that all of his responses are spot on!
Think about it; why on Earth should Turkey completely support Ukraine, antagonise Russia and for most of the Turkish ppl to freeze during the winter for the European masterrace theory and yet the Europeans will never still accept the Turks

He is spot on, he has proven he can be a diplomat and a proper statesmen when he wants to be, he returned to what Turkish FP should be (neutral) at least in this theatre.

He is being praised for U turning back to what Turkish FP was before he started playing pan pislamist ummah tunes, only this time his cabinet is full of watered down Perincek type Euranist tards hence why very diplomatic.

You think Europe will freeze to death because Russia cut gas lol.

Its funny to see only erdogan supporters here are non turks arabs-albanians-bangladeshis says a lot about our current status.

Also lets not forget countless pakistani extremist brought to Turkey to defend islamist goverment.

I can't take this stuff anymore really while we are suffering under this people who doesn't even live here have audacity to lecture us.

Lets not forget precious erdogan and süleyman soylu are running a drug operation.

We finally have a power imbalance on our plate between Turkey and Russia because of Russia's Ukraine mistake, malum party supporters still can not take advantage of it in Syria and Caucasus but wow won minute he spoke so diplomatically now guided by stupid Euranists he wants to join the shangshit club to import more ihvanul pislameen extremists from the hell holes of Asia.

 

[GoatsMilk]

and in term of great power competition. ( in a broader sense, Turkey took a relatively independent foreign policy only for the last one or two decade.)

Yeah the growing a spine comment didn't sit well with me. I misunderstood your intent. Its just I live in England and have met many Muslims from many different nations and its not uncommon for them to throw snide comments towards Turks.

As for independent foreign policy this is also wrong. Turkey has always looked out for her own interests within her own regional capacity. Turkey in 1974 war went to war with the Greeks and defeated them despite the soviet union and various western powers threatening to declare war on us.

All that's changed now is that Turkey from being 30 million in 1974 is close to 90 million today, if you include all the refugees that AK party will nationalise for votes we will be over a hundred million.

The soviet union also collapsed in 1991 opening the region to Turkey. Combine this with the maturing of defence industry projects that began with the embargoes of 1974, Turkish might comparatively in the region has grown while our main rival Russia continues to ruin herself with misguided ambitions.

Cyprus in 1974 was much more dangerous and difficult then Syria was in 2010. In many ways we are underperforming comparative to what we are facing today.

 

[GoatsMilk]

He is spot on, he has proven he can be a diplomat and a proper statesmen when he wants to be, he returned to what Turkish FP should be (neutral) at least in this theatre.

He is being praised for U turning back to what Turkish FP was before he started playing pan pislamist ummah tunes, only this time his cabinet is full of watered down Perincek type Euranist tards hence why very diplomatic.

You think Europe will freeze to death because Russia cut gas lol.



We finally have a power imbalance on our plate between Turkey and Russia because of Russia's Ukraine mistake, malum party supporters still can not take advantage of it in Syria and Caucasus but wow won minute he spoke so diplomatically now guided by stupid Euranists he wants to join the shangshit club to import more ihvanul pislameen extremists from the hell holes of Asia.

And that really shows how inept AK party is, Russia is getting bent over in Ukraine and they still cannot use that to their advantage regionally.

 

[Heartbang]

Cyprus in 1974 was much more dangerous and difficult then Syria was in 2010. In many ways we are underperforming comparative to what we are facing today

"if your enemy is trying to shoot itself in the foot, why would you stop them?"

my guess in regards to the Syria policy is, we are biding our time. Russia is currently pulling out its forces to solidify its position in Ukraine. the whole situation is evolving into a Iran-Israel proxy war, and there's a chance of swiping some territorial gains while those two are duking it out. Besides, we do have more pressing matters to attend to. Greeks are eyeing our sacred lands like a bunch of hyenas. their sorry ass takes precedence in regards of national security.

 

[GoatsMilk]

"if your enemy is trying to shoot itself in the foot, why would you stop them?"

my guess in regards to the Syria policy is, we are biding our time. Russia is currently pulling out its forces to solidify its position in Ukraine. the whole situation is evolving into a Iran-Israel proxy war, and there's a chance of swiping some territorial gains while those two are duking it out. Besides, we do have more pressing matters to attend to. Greeks are eyeing our sacred lands like a bunch of hyenas. their sorry ass takes precedence in regards of national security.

Syria was a disaster and continues to be.

Basically created a fire under your own home.

 

[Afif]

Yeah the growing a spine comment didn't sit well with me. I misunderstood your intent. Its just I live in England and have met many Muslims from many different nations and its not uncommon for them to throw snide comments towards Turks.

As for independent foreign policy this is also wrong. Turkey has always looked out for her own interests within her own regional capacity. Turkey in 1974 war went to war with the Greeks and defeated them despite the soviet union and various western powers threatening to declare war on us.

All that's changed now is that Turkey from being 30 million in 1974 is close to 90 million today, if you include all the refugees that AK party will nationalise for votes we will be over a hundred million.

The soviet union also collapsed in 1991 opening the region to Turkey. Combine this with the maturing of defence industry projects that began with the embargoes of 1974, Turkish might comparatively in the region has grown while our main rival Russia continues to ruin herself with misguided ambitions.

Cyprus in 1974 was much more dangerous and difficult then Syria was in 2010. In many ways we are underperforming comparative to what we are facing today.

So there are three timeline that can be argued as the beginning of an independent turkish foreign policy. cyprus 1974, 1990 end of cold war, and around 2008 and onward. However, I personally think it is best realized from 2008 in a broader and more practical sense. So I don't think my argument is wrong because it is not an absolute one . I do recognize the significance of Cyprus and 1990.

 

[GoatsMilk]

So there are three timeline that can be argued as the beginning of an independent turkish foreign policy. cyprus 1974, 1990 end of cold war, and around 2008 and onward. However, I personally think it is best realized from 2008 in a broader and more practical sense. So I don't think my argument is wrong because it is not an absolute one . I do recognize the significance of Cyprus and 1990.

Your thoughts are too simple. All nations are limited according to their means.

Turkey always pursued an independent policy within her means. Turkey at the end of world war one was 10 million and had next to no industrialisation, during world war 2 we had the soviets, Nazi's and allied forces on our borders. Our population was only 15 million, but were able to plot a course that left us protected from the war.

This narrative of Turkey starting an independent policy is nonsense. Even today the reason Erdogan cannot achieve his ambitions in syria is because he has to take into account what others could do to Turkey namely, USA, Russia and EU.

Comparatively all that's changed in this era is that while Turkey has grown in population and progressed in her industrialisation at the same time our main rivals have fallen away.

400 million soviet union that was competing with the USA to be the worlds only super power has collapsed, Russia today continues to fail as seen in Ukraine. Greece whose population was the same as Turkeys at the end of our independence war has remained at 10 million while ours continues to grow.

So naturally we can move more and achieve more. Arguably Erdogan is ruling Turkey at maybe her easiest times since the foundation. Even then we are making colossal geopolitical failures as seen in syria.

But an independent policy doesn't mean you ignore your surroundings, thats not possible, not even for the USA. Ignoring the geopolitical realities is why we failed so badly in Syria. Dived head first in without taking into account what the ambitions of the USA, Russia, EU and Isreal were.

 

[Afif]

Your thoughts are too simple. All nations are limited according to their means.

Turkey always pursued an independent policy within her means. Turkey at the end of world war one was 10 million and had next to no industrialisation, during world war 2 we had the soviets, Nazi's and allied forces on our borders. Our population was only 15 million, but were able to plot a course that left us protected from the war.

This narrative of Turkey starting an independent policy is nonsense. Even today the reason Erdogan cannot achieve his ambitions in syria is because he has to take into account what others could do to Turkey namely, USA, Russia and EU.

Comparatively all that's changed in this era is that while Turkey has grown in population and progressed in her industrialisation at the same time our main rivals have fallen away.

400 million soviet union that was competing with the USA to be the worlds only super power has collapsed, Russia today continues to fail as seen in Ukraine. Greece whose population was the same as Turkeys at the end of our independence war has remained at 10 million while ours continues to grow.

So naturally we can move more and achieve more. Arguably Erdogan is ruling Turkey at maybe her easiest times since the foundation. Even then we are making colossal geopolitical failures as seen in syria.

But an independent policy doesn't mean you ignore your surroundings, thats not possible, not even for the USA. Ignoring the geopolitical realities is why we failed so badly in Syria. Dived head first in without taking into account what the ambitions of the USA, Russia, EU and Isreal were.

Your argument is too dismissive and assertive. You are trying project your understanding on me. I said in my very first post ' a relatively independent foreign policy ' don't miss the word RELATIVELY. And I definitely didn't say turkey didn't have to take geopolitical realities into account. turkish Republic by and large did not pursued an independent foreign policy during cold war Era. It was deeply integrated into western geopolitical, geoeconomical and security architecture. Anyway, I think we both have very different idea of so called 'relatively independent foreign policy'.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Your argument is too dismissive and assertive. You are trying project your understanding on me.

On a serious note we just have to agree to disagree with one another.

The narrative about Turkey pursuing an independent foreign policy is skewered. Turkey has always acted independently and within her means. In world war 2 she remained neutral. The moment the soviets threatened war and wanted Istanbul and eastern Turkey, the Turks joined NATO. When Turkeys sovereignty and people were being slaughtered in Cyprus she went to war despite both the east and west threatening Turkey not. Many other instances exist like the Turkish war in Iraq against the PKK.

All thats changed is that Turkey has grown in stature as her rivals have fallen in stature.

But not even china can act unilaterally. You do dumb things like that and you end up like Russia in Ukraine. Turkey must always operate according to geopolitical realities, you go beyond your means and even a nation like Russia can get bent over by a country like Ukraine.

remember Turkey joining NATO was an independent decision that made perfect sense when you had the soviet union breathing down your neck. Like wise Turkey does half her trade with europe and whether we like it or not we geographically tied to Europe. Its not possible for us to ignore her and despite all the problems it would be dumb for Turkey to forgo her relationship and trade with the european continent.

The Turkish defence industry was also started up because of the embargoes from the west in 74 over Cyprus. Another independent action that is finally showing its benefits today with project after project maturing.

Honestly the more I think about it "independent" is the wrong word to use. Turkey since her creation has always had to operate within geopolitical realities, those realities have changed over time. Today the USA is the worlds only super power and she's the closet thing we have to an independent actor, maybe the only one on earth who fits the definition in its totality. But still their are caveats that doesn't allow the USA to do what it wants when it wants all of the time.

 

[TR_123456]

Erdogan interview was really good tbh
He knows what he is doing and what he was saying during the interview

He clearly supported Ukraine's integrity while locking hands with Putin a few days ago in the Shanghai summit.
He stated how the EU kept turkey from EU membership for nearly 60 years and are bitching when Turkey starts to search for alternatives!
He clearly demonstrated Turkey's role as a regional power as well as a mediator on an international level and that Turkey is capable of leaving its mark even when the players are of the big 5!

And yet ppl believes that he was the one who completely destroyed Turkey's perfect foreign policy pre-2022; Although the true reason for the current antagonisation against the Turks is the miraculous rise of the Turkish defence industry. The Europeans are afraid of the rise of a new Turkish superpower in the international arena and a new uncontrollable power dominating the Europeans in the future; thus, they will ensure to destroy the TSK defence industry while it is still growing and havent yet reached the maturation phase otherwise it will be too late to stop the Turks from taking back what is theirs and protecting their interests

Why did you delete this post?

 

[TR_123456]

Also many Muslims of the world should understand we are not European to these people simply because we are Muslim. Europeans for a period of time were bending over backwards in the hopes that we would become Christian. Mehmed was offered by the pope of Rome that should he convert to Christianity he will be recognised as emperor of Europe.

The Viking nobility that conquered Europe would write in their battles with the Turks that it was a great shame that the Turks were not Christian. So instead of joining the belittling narrative of these Europeans today, show a little respect. Talks of growing a spine about a nation that never got colonised is such dummy talk.

Its time Muslim nations with massive populations start achieving something, you can't keep expecting the Turks to do all the fighting and all the dying. Bangladesh has a population of 170 million. You should be a serious power with that sort of manpower. Turkey less then a hundred years ago was only 10 million, its a new thing for us to have a population relative to the european powers.

You know it takes at least a century to have an independent identity after the end of colonization,right?
So expecting Bangladesh to ''do something'''doesnt make any sense.
You should do some research on the history of Bangladesh.

 

[TR_123456]

Good comment. Excellent post.

You are right.

 

[TR_123456]

Your argument is too dismissive and assertive. You are trying project your understanding on me. I said in my very first post ' a relatively independent foreign policy ' don't miss the word RELATIVELY. And I definitely didn't say turkey didn't have to take geopolitical realities into account. turkish Republic by and large did not pursued an independent foreign policy during cold war Era. It was deeply integrated into western geopolitical, geoeconomical and security architecture. Anyway, I think we both have very different idea of so called 'relatively independent foreign policy'.

You expect to much from my country,this is it for now.
We are not independent yet.
When we are independent in a decade,we can talk.
Independent:energy,defence equipment(90%) indigenous engines(aircraft,tanks,ships),raw materials,nuclear weapons.

 

[GoatsMilk]

You know it takes at least a century to have an independent identity after the end of colonization,right?
So expecting Bangladesh to ''do something'''doesnt make any sense.
You should do some research on the history of Bangladesh.

Not really my point.

 

[TR_123456]

Not really my point.

Then what is?

"Its time Muslim nations with massive populations start achieving something, you can't keep expecting the Turks to do all the fighting and all the dying. Bangladesh has a population of 170 million. You should be a serious power with that sort of manpower.''

From your post.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Then what is?

"Its time Muslim nations with massive populations start achieving something, you can't keep expecting the Turks to do all the fighting and all the dying. Bangladesh has a population of 170 million. You should be a serious power with that sort of manpower.''

From your post.

The flippant comment of Turkey growing a spine, basically pointing out that Muslims who make snide comments towards Turks should look to their own first before opening their mouths.

I live in England its quite common for Muslims to talk shit about Turks. I took his comment about Turkey growing a spine as a snide comment, when you consider the reality and history of the Turks comparatively to most other Muslim majority nations who succumbed to European power at the first hurdle.

 

[TR_123456]

The flippant comment of Turkey growing a spine, basically pointing out that Muslims who make snide comments towards Turks should look to their own first before opening their mouths.

I live in England its quite common for Muslims to talk shit about Turks. I took his comment about Turkey growing a spine as a snide comment, when you consider the reality and history of the Turks comparatively to most other Muslim majority nations who succumbed to European power at the first hurdle.

Thats it,because we never bowed down to anyone they automaticly expect us to lead the way.

 

[Afif]

You expect to much from my country,this is it for now.
We are not independent yet.
When we are independent in a decade,we can talk.
Independent:energy,defence equipment(90%) indigenous engines(aircraft,tanks,ships),raw materials,nuclear weapons.

i dont, i am just talking about only turkish foreign policy dynamic over decades as it is. it seems you guys understsand the word independent in a literally sense. but i am talking about in the academic sense of political science.