Indonesian funding issue re-emerges for KF-X

[Indos]

KFX don't have internal weaponbay? And is using Sniper pod? Indonesia is really going wrong!

First block doesnt have weapon bay but the planning is for second block to have weapon bay. Indonesia needs longer range fighter. This is why additional fuel tanks are needed for first block.

The pictures are taken from this official ADD Korea YT channel

 

[Madokafc]

There is no funding issue anymore, but other problem arrived at other fronts, at Submarine deal

 

[Indos]

KFX/IFX mock up seen in DX 2020 event in Seoul, South Korea. The defense exibition event was held in 18-20 November 2020.

 

[Oublious]

First block doesnt have weapon bay but the planning is for second block to have weapon bay. Indonesia needs longer range fighter. This is why additional fuel tanks are needed for first block.

View attachment 7109
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The pictures are taken from this official ADD Korea YT channel

Do you now what that means? Redesign the fighter.

 

[Indos]

Do you now what that means? Redesign the fighter.

The initial design has incorporated weapon bay but the space is not used for that purpose yet, it may be used for storing fuel for first block. The second and third block are planed to use that space for 6 missile as you can see on the cockpit software. The software intended for second block has already been developed as you can see on the video.

 

[Oublious]

The initial design has incorporated weapon bay but the space is not used for that purpose yet, it may be used for storing fuel for first block. The second and third block are planed to use that space for 6 missile as you can see on the cockpit software. The software intended for second block has already been developed as you can see on the video.

then you have a problem with fuel storage.

 

[Indos]

Its hard to believe Indonesia doesnt have the funds. They are an emerging economic powerhouse whose GDP is larger then Turkey. If we can finance our own fighter jet then they should definitly be able to co-finance and existing one that is fraction the cost of the overal cost. There is mostly likely problems with either production or technology sharing, and therefore they are dragging their foot on the ground. Corruption or back alley deals might also be a reason, though i would think the requirements of the Indonesian air force is simply shifitng.

The problem is the sensitivity Jokowi and his circle have with the 2 billion USD development cost. Even he doesnt give money for N 245 program that only needs 200 million USD to complete the program or more ambitious R 80 program with less than 1 billion USD development cost.

Those two project have much less cost than KFX/IFX with complete Indonesia ownership and have more chance to gain more profit and grow our aerospace industry than fighter development, but Jokowi just think that financing MALE UAV program is already burdening government budget although it is just about 30 million USD.

You can see on how ridiculous our R&D budget is to understand better about the problem. Indonesia economic team is full of Soeharto economic system follower who doesnt regard technology development as the propelling factor to reach better growth. They do understand technology is important but if the cost of R&D is quite expensive, they tend to scrap the program or at least give the money gradually.

Other example can be seen on N 219 development that started in 2008 but the needed money for starting manufacturing phase is only given in 2014, although it is just about 100 million USD.

Indonesia needs Habibienomics approach. The economic system where the technology become the driving force (the name comes from BJ Habibie), not just relying on foreign company to invest here and build their product using our workers. This type of companies will likely to leave the nation if the labor cost in Indonesia not competitive anymore.

Indonesia needs to build high tech local companies.

 

[Madokafc]

The problem is the sensitivity Jokowi and his circle have with the 2 billion USD development cost. Even he doesnt give money for N 245 program that only needs 200 million USD to complete the program or more ambitious R 80 program with less than 1 billion USD development cost.

Those two project have much less cost than KFX/IFX with complete Indonesia ownership and have more chance to gain more profit and grow our aerospace industry than fighter development, but Jokowi just think that financing MALE UAV program is already burdening government budget although it is just about 30 million USD.

You can see on how ridiculous our R&D budget is to understand better about the problem. Indonesia economic team is full of Soeharto economic system follower who doesnt regard technology development as the propelling factor to reach better growth. They do understand technology is important but if the cost of R&D is quite expensive, they tend to scrap the program or at least give the money gradually.

Other example can be seen on N 219 development that started in 2008 but the needed money for starting manufacturing phase is only given in 2014, although it is just about 100 million USD.

Indonesia needs Habibienomics approach. The economic system where the technology become the driving force (the name comes from BJ Habibie), not just relying on foreign company to invest here and build their product using our workers. This type of companies will likely to leave the nation if the labor cost in Indonesia not competitive anymore.

Indonesia needs to build high tech local companies.

It is not true, Jokowi itself is surrounded by PDI P and coalition party and new breed economist and national Development planner circle, not ones from Soeharto era or had the same mindset as Soeharto and cohort. Sri Mulyani and co maybe western educated person and in charge of economy and finance, but they are not one in charge of National Development plan, it was Jokowi led advisor and team who is in charge under Bappenas.

As corrupt as Soeharto, his era itself known for nurtured or growing many researcher or technical expertise during oil boom and they become the pillar for newly reformed (at the time) PT DI, INKA , PAL PINDAD and so on, their (including Lolo Soetoro stepfather of Obama) and so on who received scholarship from Soeharto government cooperate with Western backed funding or organization. And Soeharto is kinda like Soekarno at some points to like flashy thing to show some progress and development, though he is more practical and prefer outright benefit so he is endorse the development of CN 212 project, CN235, including buying license producing for Puma, Super Puma and Bolcow helicopters and shut down development of Rocket and guided Missiles project and development in which had moved at the stage of Short range ballistic Missiles in 1967.

 

[Madokafc]

Jokowi led team is very much focused on more pragmatic approach and efficient efforts to develop Indonesia economy, infrastructure is his core Development program. He is known for easily grants scholarship for people who want to complete his engineering study and research of this topic, or research Development of engineering technology, this spurr many technology breakthrough at civil and engineering construction. That's why many of his program and Indonesia research currently focused on civil and engineering method and technology. Transport ships (any kind of transport ship including one to move cattle), fishing ships with new composite material, train system, auto bahn technology, construction of steel finery and forge needed for construction projects, bridge Laying technology and method , Pindad research into construction vehicles and engines , INKA foray into Locomotive building and electric trainset and so on, it was the current admin fruit and actually very much needed for our country compared to flashy Korean fighter Jets or air liner.

 

[Indos]

Jokowi led team is very much focused on more pragmatic approach and efficient efforts to develop Indonesia economy, infrastructure is his core Development program. He is known for easily grants scholarship for people who want to complete his engineering study and research of this topic, or research Development of engineering technology, this spurr many technology breakthrough at civil and engineering construction. That's why many of his program and Indonesia research currently focused on civil and engineering method and technology. Transport ships (any kind of transport ship including one to move cattle), fishing ships with new composite material, train system, auto bahn technology, construction of steel finery and forge needed for construction projects, bridge Laying technology and method , Pindad research into construction vehicles and engines , INKA foray into Locomotive building and electric trainset and so on, it was the current admin fruit and actually very much needed for our country compared to flashy Korean fighter Jets or air liner.

I dont say they dont do R&D at all, I just said that budget is very small, you just can see on the statistic of how small our R&D budget is. We miss many potential opportunity, including when our semiconductor expert try to get gov back up in early 1970 to develop semiconductor technology and industry and gov doesnt give any help at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaun_Samadikun
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Vision​

In the 1970s, he proposed to Indonesian government and industries at the time to do research and development of microelectronic devices domestically. His proposal and dream never got realized until his death. During his life, he was never tired to dream that someday there would be chip fabrication industries built in Indonesia. He was also active in the planning of Bandung High Tech Valley (BHTV) which tries to replicate the success of California's Silicon Valley in Indonesia.

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As I said, if the R&D budget is expensive, they tend dont develop it. What you have mention here doesnt need too much money to be developed and we have many clever graduates as well.

You can see UAE spend 10 billion USD only to buy missile from USA and we are reluctant to spend 2 billion USD for fighter project where the investment itself has good chance to come back after 2030

 

[Umigami]

This CG video looks impressive.
I just leave it here.

A Mach 1.8 double engine jets with powerful jammer and european AAM. This thing remind me a lot to Rafale.

Is it possible to get its source code so we can integrate our own weapons of choice?

 

[Parry Brima]

You can see UAE spend 10 billion USD only to buy missile from USA and we are reluctant to spend 2 billion USD for fighter project where the investment itself has good chance to come back after 2030

How can we expect the return of $2 bil investment when we don't have export right? Also it's not only $2 bil as we have commitment to buy 48 jets as well. It might be $5 bil - $6 bil in the end.

 

[Madokafc]

This CG video looks impressive.
I just leave it here.

A Mach 1.8 double engine jets with powerful jammer and european AAM. This thing remind me a lot with Rafale.

Is it possible to get its source code so we can integrate our own weapons of choice?

That's the main content of heated debate between Indonesia and South Korean faction (it is part of the whole mutual work and research sharing agreement) and led to the latest debacle. So far i don't get any leaked info from insider about how they manage the issue, but i just get the info MoD had put the request for fund for the continuation of the project including the deferred payment.

 

[Indos]

How can we expect the return of $2 bil investment when we don't have export right? Also it's not only $2 bil as we have commitment to buy 48 jets as well. It might be $5 bil - $6 bil in the end.

We got 20 percent of every KFX/IFX sales profit, regardless getting export right or not, it is basic investment calculation.

Yup, 2 billion is for development cost only. Buying 48 jets is another thing as it is part of our defense spending, whether there is KFX or not we will keep buying fighter planes in the future. The different is that for KFX/IFX program there will be 20 % taken from every KFX sales profit and there will be industrial contribution as we will make some parts of every KFX/IFX being made and it includes assembling and integration works for IFX.

The maintenance and upgrade will likely be done in PT DI as DI official said PTDI has freedom in upgrading the fighters, so there will be much easiness in maintenance and our local industry can also make profit from it.

 

[Madokafc]

We got 20 percent of every KFX/IFX sales profit, regardless getting export right or not, it is basic investment calculation.

Yup, 2 billion is for development cost only. Buying 48 jets is another thing as it is part of our defense spending, whether there is KFX or not we will keep buying fighter planes in the future. The different is that for KFX/IFX program there will be 20 % taken from every KFX sales profit and there will be industrial contribution as we will make some parts of every KFX/IFX being made and it includes assembling and integration works for IFX.

The maintenance and upgrade will likely be done in PT DI as DI official said PTDI has freedom in upgrading the fighters, so there will be much easiness in maintenance and our local industry can also make profit from it.

No no, just your assumption and so far many open sources instead indicated it was one of the many content of debate between Indonesia and South Korea

 

[Indos]

No no, just your assumption and so far many open sources instead indicated it was one of the many content of debate between Indonesia and South Korea

Which one ? Freedom in upgrading ??

 

[Indos]

That was said by DI official, not my assumption

 

[Umigami]

Which one ? Freedom in upgrading ??

He/she bold it

 

[Indos]

I dont want to debate about 20 % profit as it is basic calculation. If we invest for 20 %, so we will get 20 % of profit to cover our 20 % of investment and possible investment profit in any sales after reaching Break Even Point.

 

[joedhie2k]

buying KFX will be sunk cost.. any weapon purchase is basically sunk cost..
and the only way we can recuperate that 20% dev cost is by getting parts manufacturing deal

which we should.. so that any KFX that goes to ROKAF, TNI, or any other buyer will have PTDI manufactured parts..

but in the end, it will be a loooong way to get that same money back.. this is not an economic venture