Indonesian funding issue re-emerges for KF-X

[Gary]

I dont say they dont do R&D at all, I just said that budget is very small, you just can see on the statistic of how small our R&D budget is. We miss many potential opportunity, including when our semiconductor expert try to get gov back up in early 1970 to develop semiconductor technology and industry and gov doesnt give any help at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaun_Samadikun
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Vision​

In the 1970s, he proposed to Indonesian government and industries at the time to do research and development of microelectronic devices domestically. His proposal and dream never got realized until his death. During his life, he was never tired to dream that someday there would be chip fabrication industries built in Indonesia. He was also active in the planning of Bandung High Tech Valley (BHTV) which tries to replicate the success of California's Silicon Valley in Indonesia.

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As I said, if the R&D budget is expensive, they tend dont develop it. What you have mention here doesnt need too much money to be developed and we have many clever graduates as well.

You can see UAE spend 10 billion USD only to buy missile from USA and we are reluctant to spend 2 billion USD for fighter project where the investment itself has good chance to come back after 2030

I don't know this.


we missed it, if given the green light by the Orba govt we could at least compete with Taiwan

TSMC btw started in 1986.

 

[joedhie2k]

Orba prevent any tech RnD that doesnt align with "padat karya" scheme.. that is why semiconductors is not in favor with manufacturing. its a choice by that govt given the condition in the day

 

[Umigami]

KFX/IFX mock up seen in DX 2020 event in Seoul, South Korea. The defense exibition event was held in 18-20 November 2020.


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IFX name was back in this model after disappeared in full scale mockup while ago. Is this a good sign ?

 

[trishna_amrta]

we both know it's hard when the incumbent in power are all into infrastructure.

Without those infrastructures our economy will get slump big time. The state of infrastructures in Indonesia colonies (everywhere outside Jabodetabek) are already bad enough

Why we should care about their feeling?

eemm.... because #feelingmatter ?

they could just kick us out of the whole program, they've got nothing to loose. They've shown that they're capable of moving ahead with or without our help. that's what I'm fearing the most now, tbh

It's will be best if they do kick Indonesia out and be done with it. That way both side could move on

South Korea Samsung prefer Vietnam over Indonesia

Can't say I blame Samsung for it. If I were in Samsung boots I certainly avoid producing my mid-range and flagship line-up in Indonesia for so many reasons

Indonesia didn't keep legal promises in the project, threatened South Korean by bringing project into stall by calling Indonesian engineers back, which they eventually did, asked for discounts, alternative payment plans, pay with goods.
Let me tell you this, there has been an agreement at the first, and Korea did everything according to that. They didn't promise to relocate Samsung operations in KF-X agreement, the offset ratio and offset technique was clearly set.

The South Korea can always take it to arbitrage if that were the case

KFX don't have internal weaponbay? And is using Sniper pod? Indonesia is really going wrong!

Indonesia requirement call for more range. Which mean that internal weapon bay become CFT for Indonesia version

 

[trishna_amrta]

Some Indonesian officials in defense procurement have serious problems and problematic mindset, i say this by experience for the time i have been in Indonesia and worked with them, they need to be replaced with rational, young people to not further damage Indonesia's prestige in international area.

And what make you think Indonesia younger generation engineers, policymaker, etc will fare any better? Granted the old guard have serious mindset issue not to mention feudal, but that doesn't mean the younger generation policymaker is without similar issues.

 

[Madokafc]

And what make you think Indonesia younger generation engineers, policymaker, etc will fare any better? Granted the old guard have serious mindset issue not to mention feudal, but that doesn't mean the younger generation policymaker is without similar issues.

They have priviledge issue, they feel they are cut above the rest especially new recruits but when compared to profesional from field units they are nothing

 

[joedhie2k]

then there is favoritism with the equipment they assigned.. so its sukhoi block with rassiya stronkk mindset vs viper block with multirole uber alles mindset.. IFX supporter is rare.. and younger officer who has different voice with their seniors are even rarer..

this makes voice supporting IFX upwards to higher govt ranks seems muted.. the only loud ones are from PTDI because they have real money interest

 

[Anmdt]

The South Korea can always take it to arbitrage if that were the case

You don't simply bring bilateral agreements signed in state level to arbitrage, you find solutions on the background or simply halt it with the minimum loss for the image of the both side.

Granted the old guard have serious mindset issue not to mention feudal, but that doesn't mean the younger generation policymaker is without similar issues.

They are at least more open-minded, intends to take more initiative, doesn't refrain from trying new methods or techniques. This is what i have felt in official contacts that some brave young officials were limited by their old-method seniors.
The simple example when there has been some budget to buy a computer, the younger one preferred to go for some computation server + entry level laptops to do basic task, the senior has preferred macbook air pro for himself, his team and some top notch ultrabook to other staff for "mobility".
Note: The example is analogical just to express difference, it may have happened or not.

 

[Indos]

IFX name was back in this model after disappeared in full scale mockup while ago. Is this a good sign ?

Yup, I think it is. KAI didnt put IFX name they made full scale mock up in DX 2019 event. It is changed some months ago when they put IFX in the banner during the start of final assembly event.

This is also a sign that latest renegotiation may likely to satisfy Korean although there is no statement from either side about it. I hope there will be some statement made by Indonesian side regarding the renegotiation progress. I just dont know why there is no journalist ever ask that to Mindef spoke person.

 

[Umigami]

If we abandon Dsme 1400, we have to take IFX seriously. And Vice Versa.

That is the only think I can say about this debacle.
Like what I said in the old forum,
"Jangan menambah luka lagi"
(I'm sorry moderator, this one have to be said in Indonesian, just this once please)

 

[Gary]

buying KFX will be sunk cost.. any weapon purchase is basically sunk cost..
and the only way we can recuperate that 20% dev cost is by getting parts manufacturing deal

which we should.. so that any KFX that goes to ROKAF, TNI, or any other buyer will have PTDI manufactured parts..

but in the end, it will be a loooong way to get that same money back.. this is not an economic venture

we always put the economic concerns first, this is not healthy if we want a world class military.

if I'm not mistaken we opt for SU-35 because the Russians accepted counter trade deal.

It's good for the economy but definitely not suited for NATO centric TNI.

 

[whatintarnation]

I dont say they dont do R&D at all, I just said that budget is very small, you just can see on the statistic of how small our R&D budget is. We miss many potential opportunity, including when our semiconductor expert try to get gov back up in early 1970 to develop semiconductor technology and industry and gov doesnt give any help at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaun_Samadikun
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vision​

In the 1970s, he proposed to Indonesian government and industries at the time to do research and development of microelectronic devices domestically. His proposal and dream never got realized until his death. During his life, he was never tired to dream that someday there would be chip fabrication industries built in Indonesia. He was also active in the planning of Bandung High Tech Valley (BHTV) which tries to replicate the success of California's Silicon Valley in Indonesia.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I said, if the R&D budget is expensive, they tend dont develop it. What you have mention here doesnt need too much money to be developed and we have many clever graduates as well.

You can see UAE spend 10 billion USD only to buy missile from USA and we are reluctant to spend 2 billion USD for fighter project where the investment itself has good chance to come back after 2030

Are you kidding me right now? We had the capabilities to develop semiconductor technologies? What other industries had promise in Indonesia only to be put down by lack of funding?

I'm kinda sad now ngl knowing that we could've had something like tsmc

I guess we have to take this KFX program seriously now before we'll regret it later in the future.

 

[joedhie2k]

the economy stand point for buying weapons from abroad is how we secure the loan.. no loan no deal.. russian deal loan are brokered by private sector which makes the deal "malleable".. to both side interest.. not so much with US or European deal, but they have more favorable interest rate and can chip in ToT agreement

and to connect it to KFX/IFX then no direct loan available.. this makes 100 billion USD weapons deal from FMS somewhat a lot cheaper then 20 million USD (or whatever cost this year) KFX dev cost

 

[Indos]

Are you kidding me right now? We had the capabilities to develop semiconductor technologies? What other industries had promise in Indonesia only to be put down by lack of funding?

I'm kinda sad now ngl knowing that we could've had something like tsmc

I guess we have to take this KFX program seriously now before we'll regret it later in the future.

Quantum radar, my cousin is Gov researcher in radar and he said no research on this one despite he said it is very important.

He said Indonesian doesnt even need to catch up in conventional radar technology if Indonesia some how can make break through in Quantum radar. This is just one example and can be spotted because I have cousin in this research, how about other technology beside radar ??

 

[adenl]

Are you kidding me right now? We had the capabilities to develop semiconductor technologies? What other industries had promise in Indonesia only to be put down by lack of funding?

I'm kinda sad now ngl knowing that we could've had something like tsmc

I guess we have to take this KFX program seriously now before we'll regret it later in the future.

I don't think the Turks will allow you to join the TF-X either, at least not in the short run. 10 years of talks on military cooperation have only led to the FNSS Kaplan and recently some RCWS on some naval ships. Stick to the KF-X to show the rest of the defense world that you are not a fickle and an eternal potential customer. After that you can look around for more and other 5th gen platforms.

 

[Sinan]

Quantum radar, my cousin is Gov researcher in radar and he said no research on this one despite he said it is very important.

He said Indonesian doesnt even need to catch up in conventional radar technology if Indonesia some how can make break through in Quantum radar. This is just one example and can be spotted because I have cousin in this research, how about other technology beside radar ??

We have Quantum Radar research in Turkey at the university level. From what i watched from the presentations, i understood that, the current problem with the Quantum Radar is the range. It's range is currently 1 km but they are seeking ways to improve this.

 

[Indos]

We have Quantum Radar research in Turkey at the university level. From what i watched from the presentations, i understood that, the current problem with the Quantum Radar is the range. It's range is currently 1 km but they are seeking ways to improve this.

Yup, thats great, according to my cousin, in theory Quantum radar is very possible. Quantum radar will revolutionize the radar technology and it is the future for radar. I dont know much about it but according to Wiki it can bypass the Stealth technology.

 

[Sinan]

Yup, thats great, according to my cousin, in theory Quantum radar is very possible. Quantum radar will revolutionize the radar technology and it is the future for radar. I dont know much about it but according to Wiki it can bypass the Stealth technology.

Yeah, in theory it's great.

Basic principle behind is quantum entanglement. You entagle 2 particles, fire 1 particle to air. When it hits a target, it changes it's state, and the other particle that stayed within the radar changes state also (spooky action at a distance).

Unlike conventional radar, there is no need for particle come back to radar. They say, it renders stealth useless and you can imadiatly discover an aircraft's type, if it's a F-22 or F-35. That much precision.

 

[adenl]

Yeah, in theory it's great.

Basic principle behind is quantum entanglement. You entagle 2 particles, fire 1 particle to air. When it hits a target, it changes it's state, and the other particle that stayed within the radar changes state also (spooky action at a distance).

Unlike conventional radar, there is no need for particle come back to radar. They say, it renders stealth useless and you can imadiatly discover an aircraft's type, if it's a F-22 or F-35. That much precision.

It is basically going to be like ground SAR but the image is going to be of the sky. It has huge potential, but then again, we don't know how much energy and how large such a system wil be.

 

[Sinan]

It is basically going to be like ground SAR but the image is going to be of the sky. It has huge potential, but then again, we don't know how much energy and how large such a system wil be.

I understand your way of thinking but this case is not similar. SAR is a radar, it uses waves not particles. Wave reflect from the target to back to your radar. Very different cases.