Türkiye-Pakistan Military Cooperation Discussions

[I_Love_F16]

The claim that Pakistan will leak KAAN to China is based on what fact ?

On the fact that China can do what ever it wants with Pakistan. Remember that we’re talking about the Chinese. Their eagerness to copy, steal, and learn foreign critical tech is well known, they’re not even hiding it. Will be a good opportunity for them if they can get their hands on Kaan for sure.

 

[TR_123456]

Insults to countries and/or their people will result in an automatic ban!!!

 

[Nilgiri]

There is another possibility. Let's say the GE F110 engines did not come, for our Kaan block 10s. Then, until the TEI TF 35000 engine is finished, we will host the planes produced by Pakistan with Chinese engines equivalent to F110. The planes are Pakistani and the pilots are Pakistani, just like on Qatari planes.

How though.

There is no Chinese equivalent to F110. I don't mean just in performance, but actual weight, dimension, airflow, thrust layout and control volume, the salyuts and salyut derivatives are different.

Politics aside, doubt Turkiye wants to invest time of redesigning, flight testing and recertifying the aircraft for a chinese powerplant....or if physical workaround somehow even possible and interests of saving that time/cost....accept the major compromises of using A with something designed for B (I explored this previously somewhere with the PW vs GE stuff for F-15 and F-16), which would take a much more serious nature here.

Things have been done ground up + baked in for TFX with F110 and its close Turkish future equivalent, back to drawing board there would be major expense and time added.

 

[DBdev]

For those who are moaning about what Pakistan can add:
Turkiye not testing nuclear weapons to avoid global hysteria and embargos is a great weakness that regularly shows it's ugly head as getting bullied by France, USA and even tiny Greece on it's borders and seas. Pakistan could release a video of their KAAN launching a nuclear payload on a test site. That will get rid off that nonsense forever. That alone is more valuable than entire Turkish defense industry.

 

[Baryshx]

Cooperation with India instead of Pakistan would have been a better option.

 

[Afif]

Just from a technical point of view, it is very unlikely to work.
Turkey, nor India will give up all the relevant tech they developed to the other party. And neither of these two countries would want to be the junior partner in the program.

 

[B_A]

I love that Azerbaijan is included in our MMU regardless of the significance of their input, I'm not so sure about Pakistan though, Mainly because of the looming instability that's threatening it.

Cooperation with India instead of Pakistan would have been a better option.

We,as a new newcomer and follewer of jet industry,should make friends as many as we can.Dont need to be serious.

 

[AzeriTank]

No matter what, the KAAN fighter was going to be compromised, as Turkey had no one to sell it to from the very start.

The Gulf states are Turkey's region rivals, the Europeans won't buy Turkish fighters no matter what the same for the Western ally Asian countries.

That said the may problem with Pakistan isn't just China as it isn't a military threat to Turkey but India.
The Indians are going to be the 3rd largest economy in the world soon angering them isn't a good idea as it might lock us out of a lucrative economic opportunity and cause US Indians to lobby against Turkey.

is it clear that they are going to operate the KAAN fighter, or is it possible that they will just supply manufactured parts for the project?

is it possible that a less capable version of the fighter is sold to Pakistan if it buys the fighters?

finally, does anyone think that this will affect the Turkic states' willingness to join the project?

Actually all other Turkish countries has respect to Pakistan, and close relationship, they wouldnt worry at all

 

[AzeriTank]

Honestly Im all for cooperation with Pakistan if they get their act together to be stable and not be dependant on China.

Right now it just wont work. That country is imploding.

In some parts of Pakistan you literally have TTP and Tribal people running certain parts of the country. Some parts are lawless.

Can you imagine where you cant even impose your laws and even rules in your own country.

Not to mention the economy and corruption then you have terrorism and extremism that is plaguing Pakistan.

If Pakistan is actually getting the Kaan cooperation they better give us something in return like Nukes and Icbms. Also their fertile lands.

I believe Turkey was behind of taking down Imran khan as he was with China against Uygurs, thats why they dont worry probably. China, first dodnt accept it, but later, they accepted it as its also not against them. Thats why i dont even worry about it

 

[Saithan]

Thank you for you lesson, I didnt know money come to Greece from EU until you say so, much appreciated!

It was just an example. Let me give you our example. About 40 years ago, we borrowed just 2 million (2.000.000) USD from Luxemburg, like a company not a country. Our people had to brought bread via ration those days. Nobody gave us money that exceed our GDP like Greece, but Ozal came out and changed everything. Now we are making almost all kind of weapons.

All I am trying to say, we dont know the future. It is normal up and downs for the countries and we are talking about at least ten years later on. May be Pakistan getting their legs together, may be not. And I am confident we will not give anything to anybody free of charge.

Demirel and Ozal went to get that money back then. All because Ozal was an economic genius, but the plan B was to let Türkeye go bankrupt, so you could say the alternative for europe was much worse than lending out 1 mio that they could use to wipe their arses.

Guess the guys in the aviation and defense industry has already mentioned that KAAN is now living on "hope".

Very sad, but I hope we get 24 engines for Hürjet this year. anyone knows the delivery timeline for engines and how many a year ?

 

[AzeriTank]

Cooperation with India instead of Pakistan would have been a better option.

When Turkey was in WW1, in Kibris war, Pakistan helped Turkey, i myself believe that Turks should also pay it back when they can, thats why i believe Turkey should sell it, as you cannot have this jet without local engine anyway, so Turkey also knows it.

 

[Radonsider]

Demirel and Ozal went to get that money back then. All because Ozal was an economic genius, but the plan B was to let Türkeye go bankrupt, so you could say the alternative for europe was much worse than lending out 1 mio that they could use to wipe their arses.

Guess the guys in the aviation and defense industry has already mentioned that KAAN is now living on "hope".

Very sad, but I hope we get 24 engines for Hürjet this year. anyone knows the delivery timeline for engines and how many a year ?

It doesn't run on hope, period

 

[Lool]

Cooperation with India instead of Pakistan would have been a better option.

India wont co-operate with Turkey in its Kaan project ever due to the fact that it has its own 5th generation fighter platform called the Amca in the works rn

In fact, it would be better for India to see Turkey's Kaan program get destroyed for good once and for all since Turkey's fighter will be a direct competitor to India's AMCA fighter jet. Moreover, Turkey's KAAN is at a way more advanced stage than India's AMCA as Turkey showed its first prototype and the first flight is planeed this year but India still is in the design phase

Many people are whining about how they want India and Turkey to co-operate while tthey dont know that India's defence policy is quite similar to Turkey's which includes nationalising anything possible and this makes it a direct competitor to Turkey's products in the international arena

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

For those who are moaning about what Pakistan can add:
Turkiye not testing nuclear weapons to avoid global hysteria and embargos is a great weakness that regularly shows it's ugly head as getting bullied by France, USA and even tiny Greece on it's borders and seas. Pakistan could release a video of their KAAN launching a nuclear payload on a test site. That will get rid off that nonsense forever. That alone is more valuable than entire Turkish defense industry.

Nukes are useless in terms of international disputes. Owing to their binary nature, they don't occupy and control waters and airspace. You either launch and get destroyed, or don't launch and it's as if you don't have them. Let's say Turkey acquires them and then Greece, with F-35s, declares 12nm. Nothing will happen. Because you'll be reduced to ash in turn if you dare to launch them, and the ones who will have the codes are the mobsters in rule of Turkey who value their lives, wealth and luxuries, which are mostly stolen from the taxpayer more than anything else. They'll angrily shout and parade the missiles on national TV, to satiate their own people, and then concede the issue to Greece behind closed doors. It'll be the populace who will bear the brunt of the concessions. Not to mention the sanctions, loss of soft power, isolation and the economic damage, and further degradation of the conventional power.
China hasn't even broken out of the first island chain, they're getting cucked by tiny Taiwan. Norks are starving. Russia can't do shit in Ukraine. Nukes cannot compensate for inferior conventional power. They only appease third worlders with double digit IQs, who watch their fat dictators parade the shit they'll never use, while signing concessions to their enemies behind the doors. That's why the US and Co. rules the world, while third worlders dream on.

 

[Terrain]

To think that we need Pakistan for only their nukes is a flawed policy. I think first we need to measure what Pakistan, and India are. Then to see if we could help each other. India is a big country with a high population so it is a huge market but that doesn't mean we should burn Pakistan as that is what we always do when setting up relationships with a country.

But who doesn't burn the other? As that is the nature of politics because if you support one the other is the enemy of that, so we are stuck in a stalled non moving politics. If only there was a way to make both happy but that is not possible because this is the nature of the world at the moment, one nation against the other. Constantly non stop.

 

[B_A]

India wont co-operate with Turkey in its Kaan project ever due to the fact that it has its own 5th generation fighter platform called the Amca in the works rn

In fact, it would be better for India to see Turkey's Kaan program get destroyed for good once and for all since Turkey's fighter will be a direct competitor to India's AMCA fighter jet. Moreover, Turkey's KAAN is at a way more advanced stage than India's AMCA as Turkey showed its first prototype and the first flight is planeed this year but India still is in the design phase

Many people are whining about how they want India and Turkey to co-operate while tthey dont know that India's defence policy is quite similar to Turkey's which includes nationalising anything possible and this makes it a direct competitor to Turkey's products in the international arena

Actually I think at future S.Korean will not happy that sold us so many technology.

 

[Heartbang]

Nukes are useless in terms of international disputes. Owing to their binary nature, they don't occupy and control waters and airspace. You either launch and get destroyed, or don't launch and it's as if you don't have them. Let's say Turkey acquires them and then Greece, with F-35s, declares 12nm. Nothing will happen. Because you'll be reduced to ash in turn if you dare to launch them, and the ones who will have the codes are the mobsters in rule of Turkey who value their lives, wealth and luxuries, which are mostly stolen from the taxpayer more than anything else. They'll angrily shout and parade the missiles on national TV, to satiate their own people, and then concede the issue to Greece behind closed doors. It'll be the populace who will bear the brunt of the concessions. Not to mention the sanctions, loss of soft power, isolation and the economic damage, and further degradation of the conventional power.
China hasn't even broken out of the first island chain, they're getting cucked by tiny Taiwan. Norks are starving. Russia can't do shit in Ukraine. Nukes cannot compensate for inferior conventional power. They only appease third worlders with double digit IQs, who watch their fat dictators parade the shit they'll never use, while signing concessions to their enemies behind the doors. That's why the US and Co. rules the world, while third worlders dream on.

When one has 100-something warheads your arguments make sense. We need to make like a bee and produce at least 2500 warheads.

China's came to this conclusion too. They're investing hard into their warhead development capabilities and planning to achieve 1000 warheads by 2030.

 

[wolveray1]

Nukes are useless in terms of international disputes. Owing to their binary nature, they don't occupy and control waters and airspace. You either launch and get destroyed, or don't launch and it's as if you don't have them. Let's say Turkey acquires them and then Greece, with F-35s, declares 12nm. Nothing will happen. Because you'll be reduced to ash in turn if you dare to launch them, and the ones who will have the codes are the mobsters in rule of Turkey who value their lives, wealth and luxuries, which are mostly stolen from the taxpayer more than anything else. They'll angrily shout and parade the missiles on national TV, to satiate their own people, and then concede the issue to Greece behind closed doors. It'll be the populace who will bear the brunt of the concessions. Not to mention the sanctions, loss of soft power, isolation and the economic damage, and further degradation of the conventional power.
China hasn't even broken out of the first island chain, they're getting cucked by tiny Taiwan. Norks are starving. Russia can't do shit in Ukraine. Nukes cannot compensate for inferior conventional power. They only appease third worlders with double digit IQs, who watch their fat dictators parade the shit they'll never use, while signing concessions to their enemies behind the doors. That's why the US and Co. rules the world, while third worlders dream on.

You are totally wrong.Without nuke,north korea has been invaded by the US already.

 

[B_A]

Nukes are useless in terms of international disputes. Owing to their binary nature, they don't occupy and control waters and airspace. You either launch and get destroyed, or don't launch and it's as if you don't have them. Let's say Turkey acquires them and then Greece, with F-35s, declares 12nm. Nothing will happen. Because you'll be reduced to ash in turn if you dare to launch them, and the ones who will have the codes are the mobsters in rule of Turkey who value their lives, wealth and luxuries, which are mostly stolen from the taxpayer more than anything else. They'll angrily shout and parade the missiles on national TV, to satiate their own people, and then concede the issue to Greece behind closed doors. It'll be the populace who will bear the brunt of the concessions. Not to mention the sanctions, loss of soft power, isolation and the economic damage, and further degradation of the conventional power.
China hasn't even broken out of the first island chain, they're getting cucked by tiny Taiwan. Norks are starving. Russia can't do shit in Ukraine. Nukes cannot compensate for inferior conventional power. They only appease third worlders with double digit IQs, who watch their fat dictators parade the shit they'll never use, while signing concessions to their enemies behind the doors. That's why the US and Co. rules the world, while third worlders dream on.

Without Nuke,Russia would had destroyed by NATO right now.

 

[Numberone]

This thread is about Aircrafts not nukes