Historical The Partition, 1947

[Afif]

The main problem I see in the PDF is this: Thinking that freedom of expression is absolute. However, it is not absolute. If a non-Muslim person dies and someone writes about him saying "May God have mercy on him" and a fascist bigot comes out and says "No such thing can be said about non-Muslims", that is, if he dares to write this nonsense, there is a very serious moderation problem.

IMO, Pakistan's main problem is the problem of defining the "Pakistan Nation Identity". They wanted to define Pakistani identity through religion (A.K.A Islam). But once this path is taken, it leads to fascism. It has always been like this throughout history. Because logic and conscience disappear from circulation in such a sociological environment.

PDF is an ordinary victim of this sociological environment, like all other Pakistanis.

Dare I say this is oversimplification. Two Nation theory was founded on Legitimate concerns. Practically, there was no other way around at the time. Also remember, BD was also Pakistan and it was curved out from british India on the same principle and identity.

 

[PutinBro]

IMO, Pakistan's main problem is the problem of defining the "Pakistan Nation Identity". They wanted to define Pakistani identity through religion (A.K.A Islam). But once this path is taken, it leads to fascism. It has always been like this throughout history. Because logic and conscience disappear from circulation in such a sociological environment.

What else does Pakistan has to define their national identity other than Islam? BD was also part of the old Pakistani state but we not only got away but also benefited from the partition(in which Bengali leaders played a major role) because of our Bengali identity.Our ancestors decided to play the high risk high return game of independence and they created a nation state.

In the end of the day, 'Unity in diversity' is a bad joke regardless of a common faith.

PDF is an ordinary victim of this sociological environment, like all other Pakistanis.

Yes, they are just unlucky.But they did had ample chances to improve their country after independence.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dare I say this is oversimplification. Two Nation theory was founded on Legitimate concerns. Practically, there was no other way around at the time. Also remember, BD was also Pakistan and it was curved out from british India on the same principle and identity.

I like your response but I sincerely believe you are wrong. We can discuss this, on a suitable thread, not this one.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What else does Pakistan has to define their national identity other than Islam? BD was also part of the old Pakistani state but we not only got away but also benefited from the partition(in which Bengali leaders played a major role) because of our Bengali identity.Our ancestors decided to play the high risk high return game of independence and they created a nation state.

In the end of the day, 'Unity in diversity' is a bad joke regardless of a common faith.

Yes, they are just unlucky.But they did had ample chances to improve their country after independence.

Not too sure about what you wrote. Maybe we can talk about it - elsewhere.

 

[Joe Shearer]

May I suggest this one (we can rename it to paritition analysis or something else if warranted and if @Saiyan0321 thinks it is proper):

Sure. Please just let me know which it is to be, and where.

Remember also that I am as nimble as a 300,000 MT displacement super-tanker, and will need to be given space and time to achieve the new course.

 

[Saiyan0321]

Indeed, its why I mentioned proper fighting chance rather than any guarantee. Things have to be put in practice.

From the onset if you start with demagoguery though (and exploiting the broader sociological means that sustain such things like Merzifonlu has mentioned), it can get baked in a very long time.

Large parts of my family have become anti-INC to the degree they have some visceral reactions when I defend Nehru. They are more drawn to the autocrat nature his daughter took on and thats what appeals to them in the political currents today. But we are Tamil and I (and those like me among my kin) always have the brahmastra that is the Kamaraj tenure. From that I am always able to backwork things on principles and context back to the larger INC (and independence movement) of that era....that we must criticize what needs criticizing, but we have much to be thankful and grateful for if proper measured judgement is formed. A process that has been fruitful for me as I hone it to get people to think on things again and return later. Large parts of this process would have been in far worse shape today if the "proper fighting chance" was not set up in first place.




Austerlitz was a sad story. That one was a really clumsy hatchet job (like really bad).

A group of Pakistani posters who had it out for him in a "how can an Indian have a TT title on "our" forum?"...basically made a couple burner accounts to harangue him intensely so a selective confession reel could be given to webby (who they then spent another few weeks pressuring till he caved in).

Disgusting. Would have never happened as it did if it was the other way around...the literal evidence of clear nature of the hatchet job was open to all to see too on austerlitz profile page (anyone mind telling me who the hell these new burner accounts even are?)

Then Pakistani friends of mine, who never had any part in this, some even leave the whole forum over the selective reel given on what happened and their own foibles/inconsistencies. Though they did at deeper level sense something grossly inconsistent about the system in place to let this stuff surface after all the hue and cry about "no discussion about religion" (and its hollowness in practice acting as streisand effect - thats all a bunch of posters could ever talk about in awful ways in full view of the mods).

This is the exact way seemingly populist mobs can get their way in society more broadly to silence any minority they dont like....because there is own void in self-esteem for whatever reason and axe to grind.

It doesn't matter in end how much you contribute as a doctor in Karachi, how many people you helped.....if you are Hazara and theres a hit against you from some mob of degenerates who just hate you because you are Hazara. The police just shrug their shoulders or are secretly pleased.

Its matters like this I am able to sort out principled Pakistanis to make friends with.... from ones I keep as casual acquaintance (at best). Extends to Indians and others as well.



In interim, you can always check up Joe's recent activity on profile page etc, or search up his replies.

Hope you also bring any marooned/exiled/adrift quality Indian members here over time as you can. We don't want to lose a gathering spot for those interested in international forum atmosphere but one with sound consistency of rules.



May I suggest this one (we can rename it to paritition analysis or something else if warranted and if @Saiyan0321 thinks it is proper):

Books and Research Materials

I am making this thread a Sticky so that we can share Reading material of any kind amongst ourselves and provide Reviews and Suggestions for Books. This Thread will also include Research materials which can help our understanding and expand our horizons. Again it is not limited to Non-Fiction...

defencehub.live

It has earlier replies/exchanges between a bunch of us that may be interesting for members to look over and then continue. I think partition stuff starts around page 2.

The topic of partition has come up in fits and starts in many more disparate threads, but this one seems to have a good chunk from the search I just did. I can bring and consolidate more streams as I find them elsewhere to the larger thread if needed too.

there is alot of other material there which would be out of place if we changed it to partition analysis and the reason i gave it a research title was because it is meant to encourage analysis and discourage one liners or two lines snarks or conclusions and it is meant to protect conclusions even controversial ones. That is the place where you can point and state this is my analysis or conclusion through this researched matter even if it is contradictory to your view point so i would prefer to keep it the way it is.

 

[LB08]

I like your response but I sincerely believe you are wrong. We can discuss this, on a suitable thread, not this one.

Sorry for going off-topic, Re - two nations theory in 1947. Three State (with United Bengal) solution would have been the correct choice in my opinion, in line with AK Fazlul Haque's vision. Too bad it didn't come to fruition then. Had it been the case, perhaps there would have been no bloodshed in Bengal in 1947 and 1971.

I think we should have a thread on this dada. It will be an intersting discussion.

PS: this is LeonBlack08 from PDF

 

[Marlii]

Sorry for going off-topic, Re - two nations theory in 1947. Three State (with United Bengal) solution would have been the correct choice in my opinion, in line with AK Fazlul Haque's vision. Too bad it didn't come to fruition then. Had it been the case, perhaps there would have been no bloodshed in Bengal in 1947 and 1971.

I think we should have a thread on this dada. It will be an intersting discussion.

PS: this is LeonBlack08 from PDF

So india will lose a truck load of territory and for everyone else it would be a "correct choice"

 

[LB08]

What is united Bengal? The partition always was to be on religious lines not on cultural similarity

There was a movement for ethnocentric division in Bengal, but it died down. We can discuss about it in a different thread.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sorry for going off-topic, Re - two nations theory in 1947. Three State (with United Bengal) solution would have been the correct choice in my opinion, in line with AK Fazlul Haque's vision. Too bad it didn't come to fruition then. Had it been the case, perhaps there would have been no bloodshed in Bengal in 1947 and 1971.

I think we should have a thread on this dada. It will be an intersting discussion.

PS: this is LeonBlack08 from PDF

You are right, and Sher-e-Bangal's idea was taken up by the trio of Sarat Bose, Kiron Roy and Suhrawardy. Jinnah was fed up and told Suhrawardy to go and do what he liked. It was then that fate intervened, and the Congress leadership listened to the demands, of all people, the Hindu Mahasabha (the same people who killed Gandhi months later).

@Nilgiri, should we open a new thread? Could you suggest where?

 

[Joe Shearer]

So india will lose a truck load of territory and for everyone else it would be a "correct choice"

It's a long story.

 

[Afif]

So india will lose a truck load of territory and for everyone else it would be a "correct choice"

Well, technically it wouldn’t have lost anything because there was no Republic of India to begin with at the time. British Indian colony would have been divided into three parts from the start under the United Bengal proposal. Of course that would’ve been an alternate history. But I am in favour of the existing arrangement as IMO this is best option considering everything.

 

[Nilgiri]

New thread created. Relevant posts and replies in other threads may be moved here.

The thread is in General section (rather than a specific country subforum) as it concerns 3 countries today.

Wiki:

The Partition of India in 1947 was the change of political borders and the division of other assets that accompanied the dissolution of the British Raj in the Indian subcontinent and the creation of two independent dominions in South Asia: India and Pakistan.[1][2] The Dominion of India is today the Republic of India, and the Dominion of Pakistan—which at the time comprised two regions lying on either side of India—is now the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the People's Republic of Bangladesh. The partition was outlined in the Indian Independence Act 1947. The change of political borders notably included the division of two provinces of British India,[a] Bengal and Punjab.[3] The majority Muslim districts in these provinces were awarded to Pakistan and the majority non-Muslim to India. The other assets that were divided included the British Indian Army, the Royal Indian Navy, the Royal Indian Air Force, the Indian Civil Service, the railways, and the central treasury. Provisions for self-governing independent Pakistan and India legally came into existence at midnight on 14 and 15 August 1947 respectively.

Partition of India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Joe Shearer]

Many thanks, @Nilgiri

@LB08
@Afif

We can continue here.

@Marlii

Want to join in?

 

[Nilgiri]

It (https://defencehub.live/threads/books-and-research-materials.3139/) has earlier replies/exchanges between a bunch of us that may be interesting for members to look over and then continue. I think partition stuff starts around page 2.

The topic of partition has come up in fits and starts in many more disparate threads, but this one seems to have a good chunk from the search I just did. I can bring and consolidate more streams as I find them elsewhere to the larger thread if needed too.

 

[Afif]

Okay, the topic of partition runs very deep. It is entangled with the question of religion, culture, self-determination, sovereignty and legitimacy. So, our disscusion sometime may get heated. But I am sure, in the end we will be on good term with each other. This is an excellent place for civilized folks to disscus their arguments and communicate their ideas. And I intent to take full advantage of it.

So, who wants to 'provoke' first?

 

[Joe Shearer]

All the rest to

Okay, the topic of partition runs very deep. It is entangled with the question of religion, culture, self-determination, sovereignty and legitimacy. So, our disscusion sometime may get heated. But I am sure, in the end we will be on good term with each other. This is an excellent place for civilized folks to disscus their arguments and communicate their ideas. And I intent to take full advantage of it.

So, who wants to 'provoke' first?

Wait till tomorrow, please.

Very late for a 70+ year old.

 

[Marlii]

There was a movement for ethnocentric division in Bengal, but it died down. We can discuss about it in a different thread.

I know about the united Bengal idea but always thought of it as unrealistic that in the end wouldnt have been implemented or if it was implemented would have resulted in a bigger mess than the one now. The idea was good on paper but thinking everyone in bengal will live peacefully together would have been gone against the idea of partition in general.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I know about the united Bengal idea but always thought of it as unrealistic that in the end wouldnt have been implemented or if it was implemented would have resulted in a bigger mess than the one now. The idea was good on paper but thinking everyone in bengal will live peacefully together would have been gone against the idea of partition in general.

Why do I find this constant harping on the idea of 'partition in general'? There was no general agreement. One side forced its stand on the colonial rulers and the other side; the other side, the Congress, gave in because they had found the League impossible partners when the two parties formed a coalition government in the UP.

Instead of this correct understanding of what happened, and was copiously recorded, we encounter this constant refrain of some sort of general agreement on an idea of partition, implying that one side got a Muslim state, the other got a Hindu state. This is factually incorrect, and is a lie spread by the Sangh Parivar.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why do I find this constant harping on the idea of 'partition in general'? There was no general agreement. One side forced its stand on the colonial rulers and the other side; the other side, the Congress, gave in because they had found the League impossible partners when the two parties formed a coalition government in the UP.

Instead of this correct understanding of what happened, and was copiously recorded, we encounter this constant refrain of some sort of general agreement on an idea of partition, implying that one side got a Muslim state, the other got a Hindu state. This is factually incorrect, and is a lie spread by the Sangh Parivar.

Should we consider this thread started, or should one of us write a foundation post?