Pakistan giving support for China in SCS issue

[Gary]

Ok guys relax, there's no need for animosity between Indonesian and Pakistanis. It's a Pak Government statement, I don't think ordinary Pakistani cares much about SCS either.

while I myself quite disappointed Pakistan decide to proclaim their support out loud, we might have to remember our countries are just both so far away, we couldn't do anything serious to each other, not to mention trade is not that great.

and for us Indonesia it's not a big loss either, proclaiming support for China in the South China Se means you're making new enemies with not just Indonesia, but Malaysia (supposedly Pakistan ally), Philippines, Vietnam or even Japan, Australia and the US. that means more geopolitical isolation. and that leads to an even more dependence on China.

it's better to spent more of our focus on how we should deal the China threat, in the end of the day every country is responsible for the defense and security of it's own.

 

[Saithan]

Ok guys relax, there's no need for animosity between Indonesian and Pakistanis. It's a Pak Government statement, I don't think ordinary Pakistani cares much about SCS either.

while I myself quite disappointed Pakistan decide to proclaim their support out loud, we might have to remember our countries are just both so far away, we couldn't do anything serious to each other, not to mention trade is not that great.

and for us Indonesia it's not a big loss either, proclaiming support for China in the South China Se means you're making new enemies with not just Indonesia, but Malaysia (supposedly Pakistan ally), Philippines, Vietnam or even Japan, Australia and the US. that means more geopolitical isolation. and that leads to an even more dependence on China.

it's better to spent more of our focus on how we should deal the China threat, in the end of the day every country is responsible for the defense and security of it's own.

I wouldn't dwell too much on it, I mean IK even said Pak supports China in Xinjiang. This is dependency talk. It is actually a lot worse to hear common pakistanis believe that what China is doing in Xinjiang is right...

If you want to enable Pakistan to follow an independent foreign policy you'll have to invest and help Pakistan free itself from the dependency on China.

 

[Gary]

I wouldn't dwell too much on it, I mean IK even said Pak supports China in Xinjiang. This is dependency talk. It is actually a lot worse to hear common pakistanis believe that what China is doing in Xinjiang is right...

If you want to enable Pakistan to follow an independent foreign policy you'll have to invest and help Pakistan free itself from the dependency on China.

well the thing is we can't, IK is just a front man, the real power lies in the military (Army), the party benefitting the most from the current situation is the deep pocketed generals in the army, I would say as long as the generals are happy, Pakistan isn't going to radically turn anywhere soon.

not to mention the long enmity between Pakistan-India, , I would actually argue that Pakistan military establishment benefited from this. you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but the more tension with India, the more they can justify expensive military purchase, and this day only the Chinese military industry wanted to do business with Pakistan in an affordable manner.

So unless we see a radical change from a military established politics to a legit civilian power, I don't think Pakistan is going far from China's orbit. until we see Pakistan have civilian control over the military not any amount of investment will change the geopolitical position and direction of the country.

 

[Indos]

I believe Pakistan is making that statement because it's just a statement. Pakistan isn't going to war against another muslim nation anytime soon. Especially not since you don't even have border or territorial disputes.

Since Indonesia doesn't have any claim in the south sea where China lays it's claim (except keep and protect Natuna island + 200 miles). This is like a free to make statement without any cost.

Well, their nine dash line enroach our EEZ. If there is oil and gas field, there will be problem, just like what happen with Malaysia Today. China also has fishing fleet that can come to our EEZ if we dont act tough.

 

[Anmdt]

Well, their nine dash line enroach our EEZ. If there is oil and gas field, there will be problem, just like what happen with Malaysia Today. China also has fishing fleet that can come to our EEZ if we dont act tough.

Maybe time to install water-cannons on some ships and build them with strengthened bow and collision fenders.

 

[mulj]

Like Pakistan has some choice, country abandoned and betrayed from west, most of fellow muslim countries needs to do what it has to do. West chose india and now someone expect that pakistan allign with west becaues they are "rigjt" ridicoulus. Not need to mention dire need of china support in modernization of pakistani economy and infrastructure. Chill out, let the pakistan grow, it will benefit whole world once they do.

 

[Nilgiri]

I am still hoping Turkey can do something to alleviate Pakistan's defence reliance on China.

How does a 50 billion MOU loan package (from Turkey ofc) sound? Turkey have the (projected) purse, you get the alleviation. That is about the going rate China got for certain assured returns and insider trading.

Generally wont be worth it for any other country that has a more basic balance sheet philosophy though.

I wouldn't dwell too much on it, I mean IK even said Pak supports China in Xinjiang.

Well then we shouldn't dwell on any govt announcement more broadly....for any country.

That is slippery slope to employ. Either everyone gets a pass, or no one does.

This is dependency talk. It is actually a lot worse to hear common pakistanis believe that what China is doing in Xinjiang is right...

Dependency and commoner reaction (whatever that is, PDF is one clearly not promising if thats the reality) entirely of their own making...

If you want to enable Pakistan to follow an independent foreign policy you'll have to invest and help Pakistan free itself from the dependency on China.

Wrong. Pakistan has to free itself....no one else can do that. China like the US before it just saw a place it can make some hay for itself....they are not some overarching nefarious force that have one-sidedly abused or unfairly coerced Pakistani elitists + govt. It is the latter that are frankly of a certain mindset that makes them need a sugar-daddy to hold out against pagan-bad-daddy.

This flawed thinking (of free from "dependency" without the dependent putting in THEIR effort first) was the whole strategy employed by the West w.r.t PRC in first place. Free China from CCP clutches/dependency by making them rich (CCP will just be an interim intermediary that will be replaced soon etc etc)....and now they have let a larger monster instead....1 million uighur story is just one visible part of it.

It cannot be put back into bottle or the clock dialed back in time so that the greedy + gullible westerners can try again better and smarter. It is also their westerner stupid devolving into neo-con and neo-lib ideologies where they think certain sets of people are fundamentally incapable and beneath them and thus have to be "intervened" at whatever expense to them and yourself...bull all in the name of promoting degenerate virtue signalling and elitism (on all sides) in the end...that just took frankenstein proportions when it comes to country like PRC if you study IJA history there and then Mao (2 single largest sources of extreme psychological gaslighting in modern times for 1.5 billion people).

Coming back to Pakistan.....

Pakistan has a certain complex, psyche and cabal that needs a thorough crushing and obliteration for it to have any chance of anything a normal and psychologically confident country takes for granted (like say independent foreign policy).

It is the single reason its savings rate is stuck at 7% (and that being the root of ALL economic problems in the end).

The part of Pakistan liberated from this cabal 49 years ago (at great cost) now has a savings rate 3 - 4 times higher....well in the 20s, approaching past 30% now like India. All because it doesnt have that cabal thinking psyche (whatever other authoritarianism it does have). This is the basic route to economic prosperity and security....increasing your internal savings rate to then leverage more investment from outside.

Everyone tends to believe the Pakistani military budget and revenues are all what they say on paper. Sorry, it isn't....and that will be the misfortune heaped on the Pakistani people here on out.

Nothing China can do about that either, except help the Pakistani elitists double down and tighten those shackles. That suits China just fine.

No one in Pakistan really questions their best minds (who do financial analysis papers etc) further when they say (deep in the paper somewhere) I got to level A and B of institutional capacity, but the trail went cold "mysteriously" when I tried to get to real level of C and D. It is all just explained away hurriedly.....but it is obvious that is where Pak military and elitist cabal step in and have locked the drawers for their cushy set up....so that they can indulge in training and sending all manner of terrorists to both Kashmir and even Bombay when the opportunity presents itself.

They have to suffer the consequences directly and soon? Heck no....that's for the commoner to do by sanctions that come inevitably over time. The commoner can be slow-boiled and gaslighted you see. Throw some political music chairs games, shield yourself with nuclear weapon brandishing...and voila, cabal perpetuation at low cost....whatever damage done to the country at large. @VCheng

So other's (including the first sugar daddy) got tired of this lot antics. One only need to look at the long term loans Pakistan missed out on because of FATF greylisting (which needs massive worldwide consensus)....it has amounted to 10's of billions now. It is telling if you look at reliance on short term loans from PRC as a result (what CPEC effectively is turning into now).

That just means China can charge and extract more for delivering lot less (certainly no export industry)....and dig that hole of dependency even further (while saying its a good thing and the pakistani elitists can't nod their heads in agreement fast enough).

In fact Indonesia link to Pakistan entering this grey list at FATF is a story @Paro knows more on.

Not need to mention dire need of china support in modernization of pakistani economy and infrastructure. Chill out, let the pakistan grow, it will benefit whole world once they do.

Dire need? Pakistani elitists "running" the country (uniformed or in civvie attire) need dire need of seeing a shrink. They will scavenge every basic balance sheet and basic reasoning to perpetuate their echo chamber complex....dig a big hole because of it...and then concoct and whine about whatever conspiracy the world has set on them by not helping them out of it....so that they can double and triple up the lovely platitudes and "oooooh" noises to the sugar-daddy in vogue at the time throwing them whatever pittance it chooses.

 

[Paro]

In fact Indonesia link to Pakistan entering this grey list at FATF is a story @Paro knows more on.

India helping Nawaz in 'attempts to weaken army', says PM Imran

... except economic collapse. ... in other words, he is as much of a tool as all those who preceded him in that position. Not gonna happen. The country will always find a way to survive. The system is also a master of self-preservation and frankly it even predates Pakistan so i doubt an...

defencehub.live

 

[mulj]

Dire need? Pakistani elitists "running" the country (uniformed or in civvie attire) need dire need of seeing a shrink. They will scavenge every basic balance sheet and basic reasoning to perpetuate their echo chamber complex....dig a big hole because of it...and then concoct and whine about whatever conspiracy the world has set on them by not helping them out of it....so that they can double and triple up the lovely platitudes and "oooooh" noises to the sugar-daddy in vogue at the time throwing them whatever pittance it chooses.

Don't be bitter man, considering surrounding of Pakistan they do what they can, with toxic and hegemony oriented India, they cope fine, economy will rise eventually.

 

[Saithan]

Dire need? Pakistani elitists "running" the country (uniformed or in civvie attire) need dire need of seeing a shrink. They will scavenge every basic balance sheet and basic reasoning to perpetuate their echo chamber complex....dig a big hole because of it...and then concoct and whine about whatever conspiracy the world has set on them by not helping them out of it....so that they can double and triple up the lovely platitudes and "oooooh" noises to the sugar-daddy in vogue at the time throwing them whatever pittance it chooses.

Don't be bitter man, considering surrounding of Pakistan they do what they can, with toxic and hegemony oriented India, they cope fine, economy will rise eventually.

@Nilgiri explained the problem quite well. even though Pakistan "is" doing the best given the circumstances.

As I see it Pakistan was born with the problem and it got worse as time went by and still is. So the reference to Bangladesh shows the true potential if you can eradicate the cabal from existence.

Imagine, erase islam from political influence, inject nationalism keep that going. kill/reduce the bad islamic/salafist leaders etc. influence and do that for 50 years. while injecting sunni islam (if you want to steer ppl in a specific direction). Nationalize the imam education too.

I'm just sketching up a rough scenario, but that should work wonders IMO.

 

[mulj]

@Nilgiri explained the problem quite well. even though Pakistan "is" doing the best given the circumstances.

As I see it Pakistan was born with the problem and it got worse as time went by and still is. So the reference to Bangladesh shows the true potential if you can eradicate the cabal from existence.

Imagine, erase islam from political influence, inject nationalism keep that going. kill/reduce the bad islamic/salafist leaders etc. influence and do that for 50 years. while injecting sunni islam (if you want to steer ppl in a specific direction). Nationalize the imam education too.

I'm just sketching up a rough scenario, but that should work wonders IMO.

he equates well with raw economy and i am not objecting to that, thing is that there is no need to erase islam from political influence, just don't misuse it, there is enough islamic jurisprudence instruments for anti corruption, transparency, economy ethics etc. I am not very comfortable as foreigner to comment in depth Pakistani issues, i am just giving some brief views as outsider and someone who try to understand wholesome situation better.
On what we can all agree strong education foundations for whole populations is key, i would leave rest to the brothers there to manage.

 

[Indos]

Indonesia EEZ in Natuna is in SCS. Non Indonesian if they see the map maybe think that the areas are owned by Malaysian. To understand the story, people should read on the article made by Malaysian writer.

https://www.astroawani.com/berita-dunia/the-natuna-islands-malaysian-in-geography-indonesian-in-sovereignty-94430

We get that huge region and it becomes our territory since UNCLOS accept Indonesia demand to include sea between indonesian islands as Indonesia territory, only archipelago country that can have such thing under UNCLOS.

 

[Saithan]

Indonesia EEZ in Natuna is in SCS. Non Indonesian if they see the map maybe think that the areas are owned by Malaysian. To understand the story, people should read on the article made by Malaysian writer.

https://www.astroawani.com/berita-dunia/the-natuna-islands-malaysian-in-geography-indonesian-in-sovereignty-94430

We get that huge region become our territory since UNCLOS accept Indonesia demand to include sea between indonesian islands as Indonesia territory, only archipelago country that can have such thing under UNCLOS.


View attachment 7813

Weird, I thought I had seen a map from Indonesia where the last island was Natuna, and there weren't any islands 200 miles from it, just open sea in the direction of SCS. (I think it was in a post by @#comcom , but I may remember wrong).

According to this map you have a claim on an something resembling islet/island in the SCS area. If that is correct you'll have to militarize it to avoid China encroaching it.

 

[VCheng]

Pakistan has a certain complex, psyche and cabal that needs a thorough crushing and obliteration for it to have any chance of anything a normal and psychologically confident country takes for granted (like say independent foreign policy).

But who will bell this proverbial tiger? The common man? Nope:

"The commoner can be slow-boiled and gaslighted you see. Throw some political music chairs games, shield yourself with nuclear weapon brandishing...and voila, cabal perpetuation at low cost."

 

[Anmdt]

Indonesia EEZ in Natuna is in SCS. Non Indonesian if they see the map maybe think that the areas are owned by Malaysian. To understand the story, people should read on the article made by Malaysian writer.

https://www.astroawani.com/berita-dunia/the-natuna-islands-malaysian-in-geography-indonesian-in-sovereignty-94430

We get that huge region and it becomes our territory since UNCLOS accept Indonesia demand to include sea between indonesian islands as Indonesia territory, only archipelago country that can have such thing under UNCLOS.


View attachment 7813

The part between C-B on east on SCS side is where, I think China legally objects (not talking about how absurd their claim is)
The top of part of B was signed with Malaysia, but before joint extension Malay-Vietnam that part was not bound to maritime border agreement with Malaysia, since it wasn't where Malaysia had claims on.
Probably, it is exactly where Chinese fisheries intrudes in company of CG vessels.

 

[Nilgiri]

Dire need? Pakistani elitists "running" the country (uniformed or in civvie attire) need dire need of seeing a shrink. They will scavenge every basic balance sheet and basic reasoning to perpetuate their echo chamber complex....dig a big hole because of it...and then concoct and whine about whatever conspiracy the world has set on them by not helping them out of it....so that they can double and triple up the lovely platitudes and "oooooh" noises to the sugar-daddy in vogue at the time throwing them whatever pittance it chooses.

Don't be bitter man, considering surrounding of Pakistan they do what they can, with toxic and hegemony oriented India, they cope fine, economy will rise eventually.

Till you take a tour through the war museum in Dhaka...(to see what was done to them on takfiri basis by the cabal...putting aside what was done to "kafir" citizens)...since you bring up "toxic hegemony"

....a 90%+ Muslim Majority country now free of the cabal influence due to the above

....and wonder why and how it gets to have a 25%+ savings rate and the remnant left with the cabal has it lower than 7%.... (and understand the significance of this difference and the sheer number of countries that occupy the numbers in between)

Till you square that circle, what you say matters zilch tbh, you aren't even from the area.

This is an entrenched psychological issue....similar to scavenging starvation mode among situation of plenty (you just need see it for what it is, and understand you were wrong and accept it).

Have you read even one, just one....economic analysis paper done by an intelligent Pakistani from one of their banks or financial institutions about this subject? If so name me that one.

If you haven't you are well out of your depth.

I really don't want to get into which smart Pakistanis they ban at PDF whenever these few members dare bring up land and property "scams" (using the politest word here possible) regarding their military + cabal.

It is all typed in coarse urdu anyway...what hasn't been modded/deleted in first place. The skeleton of the threads are still there...looking strange from the mid course deletions.

If you don't know the basic flows and sinks of money (and time, interest, narrative directed by the elitists) in Pakistan...and the psychological reason why....there is really not much left to say. You are talking to one that has talked at depth to pretty much every smart Pakistani at PDF that is interested and cognisant in the topic...have you?

So no they (Pak elitists...uniformed or neo-uniformed) definitely do not "do what they can"....other than double down on the stupid that got them there. Years from now you will still see that savings rate stuck in single digit.....as the acronym and 3 -letter organisations of the khaki goose-steppers simply take their "cut" whatever the trust and development and momentum erosion of a basic alternative paradigm to get Pakistan out of some rut.

Bangladesh (Former East Pakistan) is increasingly stark proof of it now....of the cabal-free zone.

 

[mulj]

So apparntly you have all the answers, pls spare me. With active dispute with india for more then 70 years and all other troubles that followed them i doubt that they could focus more on development and economy. I see some small positive signs and steps of their goverment that will bear fruits in future,
Imstead clevering pakistanis focus on india crumbling economy and catastrophic society conditions. I dont see that pakistani peasents protesting only indian one in recent days. You have no or very littke ground to critize pakistan flaws when indian one are much bigger ones in ever aspect lossible to observe.

 

[trishna_amrta]

Weird, I thought I had seen a map from Indonesia where the last island was Natuna, and there weren't any islands 200 miles from it, just open sea in the direction of SCS.

Natuna is a small archipelago, with the Natuna Island itself being the largest island. I do have the complete map of Indonesia in 1 : 343.000 scale here along with other charts, such as nautical chart, underwater chart (some area), aviation chart, forex chart, agriculture price chart, etc. But I strongly doubt anyone here is interested in map reading let alone navigational chart reading

 

[Nilgiri]

So apparntly you have all the answers, pls spare me. With active dispute with india for more then 70 years and all other troubles that followed them i doubt that they could focus more on development and economy. I see some small positive signs and steps of their goverment that will bear fruits in future,
Imstead clevering pakistanis focus on india crumbling economy and catastrophic society conditions. I dont see that pakistani peasents protesting only indian one in recent days. You have no or very littke ground to critize pakistan flaws when indian one are much bigger ones in ever aspect lossible to observe.

Yes nothing to observe till East Pakistan suddenly boiled up out of nowhere.

OBL in abbotabad, nothing observed till it happened.

Nothing bad going on in North Korea either, simply cannot observe it after all. Take the cabal's word on it there too.

Crumbling economy lol....you can come chat about it in Indian economy thread...but doubt you will.

So a country that invests 900 billion USD per year crumbles, but one that invests 18 billion a year is doing great (factor in the population if you will)....just because the latter has no real media and information flow about its problems.

I mean when they aren't defacing the grave of Abdus Salam (he dared to call himself muslim), they are haranguing his student these days when he deigns to write an article on just about anything.

An example of what they do to intellectuals that are a "threat" in some way to cabal.

Clearly a mentally competent country at highest levels....very transparent and credible indeed.

You are a waste of time to talk to...you still cannot answer the basic question about savings rate...I dont even know what "clevering" means lol, maybe explain that one. Some of those other words...I'm straining here to try make them out....but anyway last reply to you. I like to focus on people that actually know what they are talking about. Adios.

 

[Saithan]

Stay on topic please.