Pakistan's PM: Our economic future is now linked to China | Talk to Al Jazeera

[Cabatli_TR]

 

[Null/Void]

China is Pakistan's only ally in the region of course it will be linked up with Chinese interests no brainer in that

 

[Null/Void]

I would argue unlike most Pakistanis China has done more for my country than even Turkey no offense they are the largest arms sellers to us and the main reason why we are sorta stable CCP may have crap internal policies but as a realist we got no real choice in that matter America is filled with backstabbers,Iran would have been good but due to decades of being a Saudi shrill Pakistan has missed that boat India forget about it and Afghanistan is just tribal nonsense country

 

[Ryder]

I would argue unlike most Pakistanis China has done more for my country than even Turkey no offense they are the largest arms sellers to us and the main reason why we are sorta stable CCP may have crap internal policies but as a realist we got no real choice in that matter America is filled with backstabbers,Iran would have been good but due to decades of being a Saudi shrill Pakistan has missed that boat India forget about it and Afghanistan is just tribal nonsense country

Iran is dangerous for Pakistan. Qasim Suleymani even threatened Pakistan many times backstabbed Pakistan by supporting separatists and proxies. Not to mention how they are sending Pakistani shias to their deaths in Syria.

Now if they come back they will be used as proxies by Iran.

Pakistan is in a geography with too much enemies.

 

[VCheng]

What naivete!

As far as economic progress is concerned, it is every country to for itself, and no one else. China will do what serves it above all, and it would be a mistake to think that such a link would have Pakistan's best interest at heart. The biggest buyer of Pakistani exports remains USA, and Chinese trade with India is growing at a far quicker pace than that between the two iron "brothers".

 

[Nilgiri]

The biggest buyer of Pakistani exports remains USA, and Chinese trade with India is growing at a far quicker pace than that between the two iron "brothers".

This more endemic feature of things Pakistan need to fix on its end.

My larger hope is that with tenure of PMIK (however many terms it is in the end, however personally well meaning he may or may not be), enough in society understand things go lot deeper than just who you have twirling a wand and words at the top.

A fundamental questioning of power's motives within Pakistan and how to put pressure on it to shift and change to better serve people...rather than itself.

This is all of course a very long process and a ton of time has been lost already. This goes for lot of developing countries generally, but Pakistan caught a specifically bad version of it, it seems.

 

[Nilgiri]

Honestly though, watching that interview was kind of painful.

All kind of platitudes and then open brazen lies.

Looking past the staple *800,000 Indian troops in the Kashmir Valley* stuff @Joe Shearer ....

There was:

AJ: You yourself said so in the campaign (regarding CPEC problems)

PMIK: No I didnt....*platitudes on China*

This is where a better news organisation would directly have a clip to play to him.

Any leader of any country must be made to squirm a few times imo during an interview for it to be credible.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Honestly though, watching that interview was kind of painful.

All kind of platitudes and then open brazen lies.

Looking past the staple *800,000 Indian troops in the Kashmir Valley* stuff @Joe Shearer ....

There was:

AJ: You yourself said so in the campaign (regarding CPEC problems)

PMIK: No I didnt....*platitudes on China*

This is where a better news organisation would directly have a clip to play to him.

Any leader of any country must be made to squirm a few times imo during an interview for it to be credible.

Don't really see the point of listening to this idiot being interviewed. Or reading those. Let's face it, his ideas are shallow and two-dimensional, his solutions are long-lasting as plastic, his ability to lead all his people into a bright future is clearly not there.

Why bother to listen?

 

[TR_123456]

Don't really see the point of listening to this idiot being interviewed. Or reading those. Let's face it, his ideas are shallow and two-dimensional, his solutions are long-lasting as plastic, his ability to lead all his people into a bright future is clearly not there.

Why bother to listen?

So,what to do then,ideas,solutions?

 

[TR_123456]

I would argue unlike most Pakistanis China has done more for my country than even Turkey no offense they are the largest arms sellers to us and the main reason why we are sorta stable CCP may have crap internal policies but as a realist we got no real choice in that matter America is filled with backstabbers,Iran would have been good but due to decades of being a Saudi shrill Pakistan has missed that boat India forget about it and Afghanistan is just tribal nonsense country

Lets forget what my country has done for you and talk about what you Pakistanis have done to your country.
A country which has been exploited by its own leaders first,sold to islamists(KSA,UAE),to China(all so called ''help'' paid for by Pakistan),to the US(Afghanistan).
Take a look at your economy,what do you sell China or what do you manufacture for the Chinese industry(almost all of the poor neighbours of China do)?
Your armed forces infiltrated by islamists,no more power to correct anything.
A country where a million people take to the streets to protest the freedom of one blasphemy suspect,a woman.
What a joke.
You hid Osama Bin Laden,you are allied with the Taliban.
And you personally look up to Iran,a country ruined by mullahs.
WTH do you expect from the world,to help you despite all of the above?
If you dont wake up anytime soon,you'll end up worse then afghanistan,Somalia etc.
Anyone able to refute my claims,be my guest.

 

[Nilgiri]

Lets forget what my country has done for you and talk about what you Pakistanis have done to your country.
A country which has been exploited by its own leaders first,sold to islamists(KSA,UAE),to China(all so called ''help'' paid for by Pakistan),to the US(Afghanistan).
Take a look at your economy,what do you sell China or what do you manufacture for the Chinese industry(almost all of the poor neighbours of China do)?
Your armed forces infiltrated by islamists,no more power to correct anything.
A country where a million people take to the streets to protest the freedom of one blasphemy suspect,a woman.
What a joke.
You hid Osama Bin Laden,you are allied with the Taliban.
And you personally look up to Iran,a country ruined by mullahs.
WTH do you expect from the world,to help you despite all of the above?
If you dont wake up anytime soon,you'll end up worse then afghanistan,Somalia etc.
Anyone able to refute my claims,be my guest.

Watch the FATF developments last month, this month and next month.

Everything is being packaged as for the benefit of Pakistan anyway leading to follow up questions:

Why do it now under coercion (and greylist effects) and not earlier under own volition?

How genuine are the moves really if done under such coercion?

If Pakistan does make blacklist, it's in really big trouble....even staying in grey list is bad tbh.

The solution lies in their "deep state" playing ball with basic international norms and not deflecting to excuses.

The civilian politicians and leaders are just put there to try add better legitimacy, a more pleasant looking aura around the sausage-factory...

The problem lies structurally well inside, well enshrined and well protected....even emboldened by access to nuclear deterrent.

The regular people always suffer in the end....because Pakistan has in effect made it just one single broad way to put pressure on something lot more specific but which does not yield to something better when it should have long ago.

 

[Joe Shearer]

So,what to do then,ideas,solutions?

Do you mean practical ones, that have a hope of being accomplished in the existing socio-political environment, or theoretical constructs?

I know Pakistanis who can attempt the first; I don't know enough about Pakistan to be able to accomplish it.

I have suggestions about the theoretical constructs.

 

[TR_123456]

I have suggestions about the theoretical constructs.

Which are?

 

[TR_123456]

Watch the FATF developments last month, this month and next month.

Everything is being packaged as for the benefit of Pakistan anyway leading to follow up questions:

Why do it now under coercion (and greylist effects) and not earlier under own volition?

How genuine are the moves really if done under such coercion?

If Pakistan does make blacklist, it's in really big trouble....even staying in grey list is bad tbh.

The solution lies in their "deep state" playing ball with basic international norms and not deflecting to excuses.

The civilian politicians and leaders are just put there to try add better legitimacy, a more pleasant looking aura around the sausage-factory...

The problem lies structurally well inside, well enshrined and well protected....even emboldened by access to nuclear deterrent.

The regular people always suffer in the end....because Pakistan has in effect made it just one single broad way to put pressure on something lot more specific but which does not yield to something better when it should have long ago.

All of the above doesnt matter when you are content with having only one option to ''choose'' from.
China will provide everything needed.

 

[Nilgiri]

All of the above doesnt matter when you are content with having only one option to ''choose'' from.
China will provide everything needed.

Sure, but there is major problem arising now given Pakistan inherited western model in its elitists (w.r.t language and international culture) due to British Raj that preceded it.

i.e The basic reason Pakistanis in international fora we have all seen speak even to each other in English etc...and how many are really keen to learn Chinese?

i.e Why their main streams of foreign income and political power projection/influence (and media focus w.r.t their elitists laundering wealth or seeking refuge etc etc) is say within UK and US (of course worker income from gulf is the 3rd one).

These kind of things China will never replace for foresee-able future.

Learning Chinese and larger Chinese system and understanding and adapting way of thinking for elitists and larger population w.r.t to it..... is simply not done in any country outside China (this is a longer subject I can go on for a long time having seen it up close

...and China is simply not interested in hosting any kind of migrant labour remitting or some significant population of another country either..forget about acquiring Chinese citizenship by naturalisation (rather it would only have you host some of their workforce temporarily to complete their loan driven projects).

So in effect there is an underlying adaptation problem of each one of your legs being on two different trains now (Western driven and Chinese driven) and thats a peculiar balancing act that will upset even a much larger nation attempting that.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Which are?

These are the extremist nationalist solutions, not necessarily mine, and are listed here as a border demarcation:

1. Reduce the size of the Pakistan Army by 50%;
2. Stop infiltrating into Kashmir;
3. Surrender terrorist leaders or try them internally (in Pakistan);

Simply not practical. Instead, the following might be more practical:

1. Withdraw 10 kms from LOC and int'l border;
2. Stop funding and training infiltrators;
3. Stop sheltering terrorist leaders; let them make their own way.

 

[suryakiran]

To put it simply, the Pakistani state has the following problems.

1. They have a military. Its military cannot fight. Its busy running business.
2. They have a government. It cannot govern. Its busy saving itself from the military.
3. They do not have a foreign policy. They have a donor policy. It is based on the policy of the donor country of that specific time.
4. The population is busy believing that the entire world is against them.
5. The Pakistani state believes that it is the protector of the Muslim Ummah.

Best of luck getting any of this rectified.

 

[Saiyan0321]

This is where a better news organisation would directly have a clip to play to him.

Bread and butter of Pakistani news channels.

A country where a million people take to the streets to protest the freedom of one blasphemy suspect,a woman.

are you talking about TLP when they blocked the roads? A million? ah no. strategically placed 20-30 madarassah boys strategically placed at important junctures which blocked the city. 2 Days later the army literally made them 'Disappear' by grabbing all of them. The TLP were numbered to be somewhere between 2000-3000 and to this day they protest that those that came back did not come back mentally stable and about half of them are still missing, most likely dead. I joked about it that our military's capability to vanish 3000 people in a few hours is both astounding and scary at the same time.

Take a look at your economy,what do you sell China or what do you manufacture for the Chinese industry(almost all of the poor neighbours of China do)?

Mostly agriculture related. Like food products or cotton. You can only sell what you produce. I would say copper and cotton take the bulk of our exports to China and unless we diversify our production capability, any increase in trade will have to be based on what we produce i.e. Agriculture products. To diversify our production, we need to first perfect our current production capability, repair the cracks and then diversify so that the new industry is not plagued with the same issues that the old industry is plagued with.

A country which has been exploited by its own leaders first,sold to islamists(KSA,UAE),to China(all so called ''help'' paid for by Pakistan),to the US(Afghanistan).

as many other third world countries are exploited by their leadership but here is a thing, people do stand up and fight, and make a stand and with social media, the government can be pressurized. Are you aware that our courts recently declared Internet as a Fundamental Right. What i am saying is that yes there is exploitation and that has been the prerogative of the elite in this region for thousands of years and such shackles are not easy to break but the good news is that such exploitation is called out and that is the first step. I am not saying its rosy, however i am also not saying its all doom and gloom.
As for the selling, no argument there and again it gets called out more than you can imagine.

Your armed forces infiltrated by islamists,no more power to correct anything.

The army and the islamists are a topic that is long and heavy however let me tell you something. The most liberal minded institution in Pakistan is the army and the armed forces generals and of the three dictators pakistan had, some of the most liberal minded laws were passed in the era of two i.e. Ayub and Musharraf and as for Zia. He wanted to secure power in Pakistan at the time when the people were not in the mood for military intervention and Bhutto looked less islamist and more socialist thus in this manner, Zia found it far more easier to use religion against bhutto and usurp power. Infact zia repeatedly used Islam, not as a means to make a more islamic society but to control the populace through Islam. He was the smartest of the entire lot since he knew exactly how to rule muslims of the subcontinent. They say before martial law, Ayub was reading books on how to rule the areas composed of Pakistan, he had several books on the topic but it seems it was zia that put it to pratice.

You hid Osama Bin Laden,you are allied with the Taliban.

Indeed so and our image took a nosedive however the taliban are not recognized as terrorists by the US and are seen by the US, due to their dealings as a legitimate party to the conflict. It doesnt help our image but it helps our influence. So it would be an old discussion that we have here. Influence vs image

And you personally look up to Iran,a country ruined by mullahs.

What? The people of Pakistan like the only thing about Iran is simply due to its stand against the US and is seen as an underdog which we love. Ohh the world is ganging on Turkey, ohh the world is ganging on China, we ourselves have this image of being under siege by foreign powers thus it creates a sense of sympathy however apart from this i have not seen anybody admire the Iranian model just like nobody admires the arabian model. Pakistanis hate the heavy handedness of law and the concept of strict implementation of any law be it shariah or even traffic rules, is seriously hated by us. As for economy, nobody likes a poor country and as for religious affiliation. Lolzzz Iran is seen as the main belligerent behind Shia militant groups. The common concept is that we cannot become a battleground in this Arab-Iran fight.
Analysts do believe and rightly so that we should increase relations with Iran since they are our neighbor and well we could increase and diversify our trade countries.

If you dont wake up anytime soon,you'll end up worse then afghanistan,Somalia etc.

We will end up worse but not that worse. Those countries are a mess because there is an absence of a central sovereign power that could maintain control on the populace, the stakeholders and the regions of the country itself. Pakistan is not like that. The army acts as that power however nothing is perfect and we should be on the edge of the cliff with a single rope.

 

[TR_123456]

These are the extremist nationalist solutions, not necessarily mine, and are listed here as a border demarcation:

1. Reduce the size of the Pakistan Army by 50%;
2. Stop infiltrating into Kashmir;
3. Surrender terrorist leaders or try them internally (in Pakistan);

Simply not practical. Instead, the following might be more practical:

1. Withdraw 10 kms from LOC and int'l border;
2. Stop funding and training infiltrators;
3. Stop sheltering terrorist leaders; let them make their own way.

Those are ''solutions'' concerning Kashmir,i didnt mention Kashmir.
Read post 10 again young man and answer it.

 

[TR_123456]

are you talking about TLP when they blocked the roads? A million? ah no. strategically placed 20-30 madarassah boys strategically placed at important junctures which blocked the city. 2 Days later the army literally made them 'Disappear' by grabbing all of them. The TLP were numbered to be somewhere between 2000-3000 and to this day they protest that those that came back did not come back mentally stable and about half of them are still missing, most likely dead. I joked about it that our military's capability to vanish 3000 people in a few hours is both astounding and scary at the same time.

I have seen more then then the 3000 you mentioned but ok.

Mostly agriculture related. Like food products or cotton. You can only sell what you produce. I would say copper and cotton take the bulk of our exports to China and unless we diversify our production capability, any increase in trade will have to be based on what we produce i.e. Agriculture products. To diversify our production, we need to first perfect our current production capability, repair the cracks and then diversify so that the new industry is not plagued with the same issues that the old industry is plagued with.

You think this government can and will do that?

as many other third world countries are exploited by their leadership but here is a thing, people do stand up and fight, and make a stand and with social media, the government can be pressurized. Are you aware that our courts recently declared Internet as a Fundamental Right. What i am saying is that yes there is exploitation and that has been the prerogative of the elite in this region for thousands of years and such shackles are not easy to break but the good news is that such exploitation is called out and that is the first step. I am not saying its rosy, however i am also not saying its all doom and gloom.
As for the selling, no argument there and again it gets called out more than you can imagine.

So,what you are saying is that its called out and will be dealt with?

The army and the islamists are a topic that is long and heavy however let me tell you something. The most liberal minded institution in Pakistan is the army and the armed forces generals and of the three dictators pakistan had, some of the most liberal minded laws were passed in the era of two i.e. Ayub and Musharraf and as for Zia. He wanted to secure power in Pakistan at the time when the people were not in the mood for military intervention and Bhutto looked less islamist and more socialist thus in this manner, Zia found it far more easier to use religion against bhutto and usurp power. Infact zia repeatedly used Islam, not as a means to make a more islamic society but to control the populace through Islam. He was the smartest of the entire lot since he knew exactly how to rule muslims of the subcontinent. They say before martial law, Ayub was reading books on how to rule the areas composed of Pakistan, he had several books on the topic but it seems it was zia that put it to pratice.

Then why couldnt Musharraf do the reforms he wanted,who or what held him back?
Under Musharraf,your economy had its peak and later its low.

What? The people of Pakistan like the only thing about Iran is simply due to its stand against the US and is seen as an underdog which we love. Ohh the world is ganging on Turkey, ohh the world is ganging on China, we ourselves have this image of being under siege by foreign powers thus it creates a sense of sympathy however apart from this i have not seen anybody admire the Iranian model just like nobody admires the arabian model. Pakistanis hate the heavy handedness of law and the concept of strict implementation of any law be it shariah or even traffic rules, is seriously hated by us. As for economy, nobody likes a poor country and as for religious affiliation. Lolzzz Iran is seen as the main belligerent behind Shia militant groups. The common concept is that we cannot become a battleground in this Arab-Iran fight.
Analysts do believe and rightly so that we should increase relations with Iran since they are our neighbor and well we could increase and diversify our trade countries.

''You personally'' was Yankeestani,he hates Turks,loves Iran.

We will end up worse but not that worse. Those countries are a mess because there is an absence of a central sovereign power that could maintain control on the populace, the stakeholders and the regions of the country itself. Pakistan is not like that. The army acts as that power however nothing is perfect and we should be on the edge of the cliff with a single rope.

So,the army is still the army?