Live Conflict Israel-Palestine War|Regional Escalations

[RMZN]

Yasar, if you don't think Israelis are fighting "for the defence of their homeland", I don't really know what you tell you. That's a lost cause for anyone thinking otherwise.

RMZN, none of that applies when it's in retaliation to an attack. And to reiterate, Gazans have skyrocketed in number even since the blockade. I'd like you to subtantiate this intent to "prevent births", because it sure-as-shit doesn't look that way from the lay of the land on the ground, factually. The only "forcible transferring" has been under wartime conditions when clearing areas, or with the children of parents who've killed Israelis. Wah wah, try again, deflating slide-whistle sound.

As far as the 40% of Arabs within Israel being down to 20% - first of all you're going to have to cite/source that too, and secondly, that's 20% more Arabs than there are Jews permitted to live & breathe under Hamas or Hezbollah territory. Guess the Israelis keep the moral high ground there, eh? 'Cause we're intellectually-consistent people here and all.

"Another", Scott? That's, what, 5 tanks by now? 6? Good luck man, few thousand more to go, I'm sure the remaining limping & scattered remains of Hamas can bring down the rest before they're annihilated the rest of the way. Heh.

"none of that applies when it's in retaliation to an attack." Except it does. And If you dont think so you would also have to agree to the fact that Hamas has the right to kill every single Israeli in Israel in an act of self defense. After all they would just be "retaliating", right?

"Israel’s Minister for the Advancement of the Status of Women, stated that: “All of Gaza’s infrastructures must be destroyed to its foundation and their electricity cut off immediately. The war is not against Hamas but against the state of Gaza” "

https://x.com/bezalelsm/status/1726198721946480911

"It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true."

https://www.scribd.com/document/681086738/Israeli-Intelligence-Ministry-Policy-Paper-on-Gaza-s-Civilian-Population-October-2023

"5.The three options under examination are
Option A: The population remaining in Gaza and the import of PalestinianAuthority (PA) rule.
Option B: The population remaining in Gaza along with the emergence of alocal Arab authority.
Option C: The evacuation of the civilian population from Gaza to Sinai. (a.k.a textbook ethnic cleansing)

6.From an in-depth look at the options, the following insights can be derived

Option C - The option that will yield positive, long-term strategic outcomes for Israel, and is an executable option. It requires determination from the political echelon in the face of international pressure, with an emphasis on harnessing the support of the United States and additional pro-Israeli countries for the endeavor"

"We are putting a complete siege on Gaza … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed,” Gallant said in a video statement."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/israel-announces-total-blockade-on-gaza

"More children have been killed in just over three weeks in Gaza than in all of the world’s conflicts combined in each of the past three years, according to the global charity Save the Children. For example, it said, 2,985 children were killed across two dozen war zones throughout all of last year."

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-11-1-2023-children-killed-4a352398b32887e60a658e0270f0a021

"Children younger than 18 years, women aged 18–59 years, and both men and women aged 60 years or older (groups that probably include few combatants) constituted 68·1% of analysable deaths"

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fulltext






"that's 20% more Arabs than there are Jews permitted to live & breathe under Hamas or Hezbollah territory"
It was literally the Israeli government which forcibly removed illegal Israeli settlers from Gaza in 2005 lmfao.


"Approximately 1.8 million Palestinians form around 20.8 per cent of Israel’s population"

 

[SilverMachine]

"none of that applies when it's in retaliation to an attack." Except it does. And If you dont think so you would also have to agree to the fact that Hamas has the right to kill every single Israeli in Israel in an act of self defense. After all they would just be "retaliating", right?

"Israel’s Minister for the Advancement of the Status of Women, stated that: “All of Gaza’s infrastructures must be destroyed to its foundation and their electricity cut off immediately. The war is not against Hamas but against the state of Gaza” "

https://x.com/bezalelsm/status/1726198721946480911

"It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true."

https://www.scribd.com/document/681086738/Israeli-Intelligence-Ministry-Policy-Paper-on-Gaza-s-Civilian-Population-October-2023

"5.The three options under examination are
Option A: The population remaining in Gaza and the import of PalestinianAuthority (PA) rule.
Option B: The population remaining in Gaza along with the emergence of alocal Arab authority.
Option C: The evacuation of the civilian population from Gaza to Sinai. (a.k.a textbook ethnic cleansing)

6.From an in-depth look at the options, the following insights can be derived

Option C - The option that will yield positive, long-term strategic outcomes for Israel, and is an executable option. It requires determination from the political echelon in the face of international pressure, with an emphasis on harnessing the support of the United States and additional pro-Israeli countries for the endeavor"

"We are putting a complete siege on Gaza … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed,” Gallant said in a video statement."

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/israel-announces-total-blockade-on-gaza

"More children have been killed in just over three weeks in Gaza than in all of the world’s conflicts combined in each of the past three years, according to the global charity Save the Children. For example, it said, 2,985 children were killed across two dozen war zones throughout all of last year."

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-11-1-2023-children-killed-4a352398b32887e60a658e0270f0a021






"that's 20% more Arabs than there are Jews permitted to live & breathe under Hamas or Hezbollah territory"
It was literally the Israeli government which forcibly removed illegal Israeli settlers from Gaza in 2005 lmfao.

Hamas *is* stating their goal as being to kill every Israeli in "self defence". They literally are, their words. Hey, look, if they can be successful and win, achieve their goal, more power to 'em. But they don't get to complain about losing, about their sworn enemy taking off the gloves in the face of something like that.

The "complete siege of Gaza" is a response to...? C'mon now, you say it. It's okay to acknowledge it didn't come out of nowhere, you can be objective once in a while. They were attacked. The dead Gazan civilians can take it up with their dads & brothers & uncles & sons who were so hell-bent on sparking open war.

You still haven't backed up how the (incredibly sad as it may be) high number of child deaths equates to "genocide". "Genocide" has intent - before the war there were multitudes more young people in Gaza than ever before - both sides agree on this. There's been a population boom in Gaza prior to this war, a major one. Ergo the Israelis haven't been "acting to halt births" in Gaza. People are free to have as many kids as they want, and do.

As for the last part, "in 2005". Yes. 19 years ago, and the Israelis haven't been there since 2005. Your point is noneistent, as said population boom has *been since 2005*". This isn't difficult stuff to grasp.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Yasar, if you don't think Israelis are fighting "for the defence of their homeland", I don't really know what you tell you. That's a lost cause for anyone thinking otherwise.

Read my post again. I never even insinuated any such thing.
It is an impartial explanation of what you guys are arguing about.
It is up to you to decide how to interpret it.
My job is to make sure you guys are not out of order.
And we will try to make sure that any argument stays within forum rules.

There is no way I will be drawn in to this argument.

 

[RMZN]

Hamas *is* stating their goal as being to kill every Israeli in "self defence". They literally are, their words. Hey, look, if they can be successful and win, achieve their goal, more power to 'em. But they don't get to complain about losing, about their sworn enemy taking off the gloves in the face of something like that.

The "complete siege of Gaza" is a response to...? C'mon now, you say it. It's okay to acknowledge it didn't come out of nowhere, you can be objective once in a while. They were attacked. The dead Gazan civilians can take it up with their dads & brothers & uncles & sons who were so hell-bent on sparking open war.

You still haven't backed up how the (incredibly sad as it may be) high number of child deaths equates to "genocide". "Genocide" has intent - before the war there were multitudes more young people in Gaza than ever before - both sides agree on this. There's been a population boom in Gaza prior to this war, a major one. Ergo the Israelis haven't been "acting to halt births" in Gaza. People are free to have as many kids as they want, and do.

As for the last part, "in 2005". Yes. 19 years ago, and the Israelis haven't been there since 2005. Your point is noneistent, as said population boom has *been since 2005*". This isn't difficult stuff to grasp.

So according to your logic that is totally fine then, right? Why keep trying to deny the obvious fact that israel is seeking to ethnically cleanse the palestinian population, as stated multiple times by Israeli government officials and Israels founding fathers themselves?

"The dead Israeli civilians can take it up with their dads & brothers & uncles & sons who were so hell-bent on genociding the native population"




"Genocide" has intent" and said intent is proven by the statements of Israeli officials. Just like with Ratko Mladic during the Srebrenica Genocide

"You still haven't backed up how the (incredibly sad as it may be) high number of child deaths equates to "genocide"

Forced Population transfer is Genocide, blocking food and aid falls under "(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part", systematically killing civilians falls under "the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group", as was ruled under the Srebrenica and Rwanda cases

"The offender is culpable because he knew or should have known that the act committed would destroy, in whole or in part, a group.” See also Musema, (Trial Chamber), January 27, 2000, para. 164."

https://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/ij/ictr/3.htm


"There's been a population boom in Gaza prior to this war" yeah, Gaza has received major waves of palestinian refugees for decades, resulting in the growth of the population.

" the Israelis haven't been "acting to halt births" in Gaza", cutting of food and water supply, bombing hospitals or outright murdering women and children does in fact fall under "acting to halt births".




"and the Israelis haven't been there since 2005", its almost like they banned Israeli settlers from moving into Gaza since they are currently conducting a literal blockade lmfao

 

[Scott Summers]

"Another", Scott? That's, what, 5 tanks by now? 6? Good luck man, few thousand more to go, I'm sure the remaining limping & scattered remains of Hamas can bring down the rest before they're annihilated the rest of the way. Heh.

Yeah, good luck with believing that.

Say goodnight to the bad guys.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1856767009251627314

 

[Dennixtoue]

 

[500]

The UN definition of Genocide:

"The current definition of Genocide is set out in Article II of the Genocide Convention: Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group"

Israel checks all the boxes.

Not only does you graph have no source, you fail to understand that Genocide is a legal Term. Srebrenica was ruled to be a Genocide, despite "only" 8000 Muslim Bosniaks being killed. The number of death dont matter as much as genocidal intend does. And Israeli officials showcase plenty. Just like the Serbs once did.

No, Israel does not kill anyone for belonging to some national or ethnic group. Millions of Arabs live under Israeli control and they live even BETTER than in their own Arab countries.

Hamas on the other hand always killed people just for belonging to the group.

 

[500]

But Hamas is very good in destroying Israeli armour.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1856358794751815757

Tank was not even harmed here.

Not a SINGLE Israeli tank was destroyed in Gaza in more than 1 year of fighting. There is no more failed group than Hamas in entire human history.

 

[500]

Yeah, good luck with believing that.

Say goodnight to the bad guys.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1856767009251627314

Israel reports about ALL its fallen soldiers like any civilized country.

Hamas does not report - because otherwise their "genocide" and "victory" narrative wont look good.

 

[SilverMachine]

So according to your logic that is totally fine then, right? Why keep trying to deny the obvious fact that israel is seeking to ethnically cleanse the palestinian population

Probably because they're not? Demonstrably so, as already stated?

Deaths alone, even in mass numbers, don't rise to the bar of 'genocide'. Especially when those dying are from the population that instigated the conflict in which they're dying.

 

[RMZN]

Probably because they're not? Demonstrably so, as already stated?

Deaths alone, even in mass numbers, don't rise to the bar of 'genocide'. Especially when those dying are from the population that instigated the conflict in which they're dying.

Except we have Israeli officials openly stating their goals of ethnically cleansing the palestinians. Their military doctrine specifically instructs their armed forces to target civilian infrastructure as a means to terrorize the civilian population into submission. And we have the fact that Palestinians went from making up the ethnic majority in Palestine to being reduced to 20% of the population.

We have proven intent and proven systematic killings. Taking the Srebrenica case as a legal precedent, Israel is committing a Genocide in Gaza.

Especially when those dying are from the population that instigated the conflict in which they're dying

Except it werent the Palestinians which instigated the conflict but zionist settlers who sought to colonize and establish their own ethnostate




Zionists themselves are pretty aware of such realities:

"In both countries important experiments in colonization have been made, though on the mistaken principle of a gradual infiltration of Jews. An infiltration is bound to end badly. It continues till the inevitable moment when the native population feels itself threatened, and forces the Government to stop a further influx of Jews"

-Theodor Herzl, "The Jewish State"





"In Lord Cromer's opinion, the most important question was that of the rights which Herzl expected for the projected settlement. He wrote: "In your letter of the 12th ult. you remark that you will become great and promising by the granting of this right of colonization. Your letter does not make clear what is to be understood by these words, and what kind of rights the colonists will expect."

"There is no justification for such a belief. It may be that some individual Arabs take bribes. But that does not mean that the Arab people of Palestine as a whole will sell that fervent patriotism that they guard so jealously, and which even the Papuans will never sell. Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonised."

"We cannot offer any adequate compensation to the Palestinian Arabs in return for Palestine. And therefore, there is no likelihood of any voluntary agreement being reached. So that all those who regard such an agreement as a condition sine qua non for Zionism may as well say "non" and withdraw from Zionism."

"Zionist colonisation must either stop, or else proceed regardless of the native population. Which means that it can proceed and develop only under the protection of a power that is independent of the native population – behind an iron wall, which the native population cannot breach."

"iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else – or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not “difficult”, not “dangerous” but IMPOSSIBLE! ... Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonialization"

-Vladimir Jabotinsky, "The Iron Wall"




"He told the Jewish Agency Executive, shortly after he met Cunningham: ‘I believe the majority of the Palestinian masses accept the partition as a fait accompli and do not believe it is possible to overcome or reject it ... The decisive majority of them do not want to fight us."

"In the area allocated to the Jewish state there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish state at the time of its establishment, will be about a million, including almost 40 percent non-Jews. Such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish state. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority.... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60 percent"

-David Ben-Gurion




"Throughout the journey my reflections were focused on that plan, about which l have been thinking for years; the plan...of evacuating the country for us. I know the difficulties...but only through population transfer will redemption come....There is no room for us with our neighbours...development is a very slow process ....They [the Arabs] are too many and too much rooted [in the country]...the only way is to cut and eradicate them from the roots.

(..) We will set up an apparatus from the Yishuv manned by distinguished experts and these will supervise the Arab transfer and resettlement and a second apparatus will receive the [Jewish] “redeemers" and plant them on the land."

-Yosef Weitz

 

[RMZN]

Non-loons with a parliament majority, people actually setting the agenda? Official policy?

No, we don't, you're talking shit.

You mean like official policy papers describing how ethnically cleansing the palestinians is the most effective course of action but that Israel has to watch out, because committing genocide looks bad on the world stage?

or the literal words of the very same Zionists which initiated the existence of Israel in the first place? When you have Israeli officials openly talking about how they should nuke gaza and settle it with Israelis, whilst the israeli army is systematically killing civilians, it doesnt matter how high ranked said politicians are. Either way we have Israels Defense Minister himself openly admitting to violating section (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.

 

[500]

Except we have Israeli officials openly stating their goals of ethnically cleansing the palestinians.

No one holding any real power.

Their military doctrine specifically instructs their armed forces to target civilian infrastructure as a means to terrorize the civilian population into submission.

Only if terrorists use this infrastructures for war.

And we have the fact that Palestinians went from making up the ethnic majority in Palestine to being reduced to 20% of the population.

First of ratio is close to 50/50. Secondly it happened not because Arab population reduction but because of mass Jewish migration to nearly empty lands. In fact since the beginning of Zionism in 1880 the Arab population of Palestine increased more than 17 times.

Britain population in same period increased only 2 times.

Turkey population - 7 times.

 

[SilverMachine]

^ This guy gets it.