TR Aircraft Carrier & Amphibious Ship Programs

[Ripley]

fgg

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1968040449299411140

“Selçuk Bayraktar:

(Landing of Kızılelma on TCG Anadolu)

KIZILELMA can take off from the ship but requires arresting cables for landing.

Our Naval Forces are designing a larger ship.[*MUGEM]

With that ship, Kızılelma will both take off and land.

This will open a completely new chapter for Turkish naval aviation.”


Seems that we won’t have to explode our brains off anymore on the composition of air wings on future MUGEM.
Kızılelma and maybe Anka 3. Those two could have been easily based on a 30-35K purpose built carrier.
MUGEM getting more and more extravagant.

 

[boredaf]

Those two could have been easily based on a 30-35K purpose built carrier.

Yeap. We could have a purpose build Trakya and use it in tandem with Anadolu; which would provide ISR with TB3s while Trakya could be the strike force with KE and Anka-3. It would cost only a fraction of what a carrier would cost and we can use the rest of those funds to build a stronger surface and submarine force.

But nope, we have to have an aircraft carrier that we don't need, and use it with a trainer turned naval jet.

 

[Zafer]

fgg

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1968040449299411140

“Selçuk Bayraktar:

(Landing of Kızılelma on TCG Anadolu)

KIZILELMA can take off from the ship but requires arresting cables for landing.

Our Naval Forces are designing a larger ship.[*MUGEM]

With that ship, Kızılelma will both take off and land.

This will open a completely new chapter for Turkish naval aviation.”


Seems that we won’t have to explode our brains off anymore on the composition of air wings on future MUGEM.
Kızılelma and maybe Anka 3. Those two could have been easily based on a 30-35K purpose built carrier.
MUGEM getting more and more extravagant.

Once the several engines in development are made more plane variety will emerge. A catapult upgrade will also boost capabilities justifying more planes. A carrier has many decades of life it will be used to its maximum.

 

[Lool]

fgg

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1968040449299411140

“Selçuk Bayraktar:

(Landing of Kızılelma on TCG Anadolu)

KIZILELMA can take off from the ship but requires arresting cables for landing.

Our Naval Forces are designing a larger ship.[*MUGEM]

With that ship, Kızılelma will both take off and land.

This will open a completely new chapter for Turkish naval aviation.”


Seems that we won’t have to explode our brains off anymore on the composition of air wings on future MUGEM.
Kızılelma and maybe Anka 3. Those two could have been easily based on a 30-35K purpose built carrier.
MUGEM getting more and more extravagant.

And Hurjet as well
With arresting cables in place; Hurjet can also land on MUGEM

The main question is whether KAAN can land on it or not

 

[IC3M@N FX]

With an engine like the F-404 in the Hürjet and Kizilelma with an AI 322F/TF 10000 (both same class engine), this will be very difficult, if not impossible, especially with a heavy payload.
Let's assume that, for whatever reason, we develop a catapult and arresting arm/cable in time.
Who do we want to fly against? The Hürjet aircraft, as it stands in its military version, doesn't stand a chance against a Rafale M or F-18 Super Hornet, and it would be literally torn apart in the air by the F-35B/C.
Against Russian/Chinese or even Indian MIG29K or SU-33s, it would be just as ineffective, as they all have a completely different level of kinetics and are also being modernized with AESA radar and other equipment.

The Hürjet should have been equipped with two F-404 engines from the outset. It would no longer be a trainer, but honestly..... honestly man im really angry we don't need a fucking trainer!
You can get one anywhere from South Korea, Italy, and, if necessary, the US. There are zero restrictions on the export of training aircraft to Turkey...
We need fighter jets, and a Hürjet in the class of an F-18 Super Hornet should have been developed from the outset, not as a trainer. I don't understand the concept, and even if Kizilelma comes with two engines, the drone is a support platform in air combat and not a standalone system, even if Baykar thinks otherwise. The moment the data link breaks, no matter how much AI is in it, it's over. The drone has lost the air battle. We are not the US, and we are not developing Terminators like the T-800 with their own consciousness that make independent decisions.

 

[Iskander]

With an engine like the F-404 in the Hürjet and Kizilelma with an AI 322F/TF 10000 (both same class engine), this will be very difficult, if not impossible, especially with a heavy payload.
Let's assume that, for whatever reason, we develop a catapult and arresting arm/cable in time.
Who do we want to fly against? The Hürjet aircraft, as it stands in its military version, doesn't stand a chance against a Rafale M or F-18 Super Hornet, and it would be literally torn apart in the air by the F-35B/C.
Against Russian/Chinese or even Indian MIG29K or SU-33s, it would be just as ineffective, as they all have a completely different level of kinetics and are also being modernized with AESA radar and other equipment.

The Hürjet should have been equipped with two F-404 engines from the outset. It would no longer be a trainer, but honestly..... honestly man im really angry we don't need a fucking trainer!
You can get one anywhere from South Korea, Italy, and, if necessary, the US. There are zero restrictions on the export of training aircraft to Turkey...
We need fighter jets, and a Hürjet in the class of an F-18 Super Hornet should have been developed from the outset, not as a trainer. I don't understand the concept, and even if Kizilelma comes with two engines, the drone is a support platform in air combat and not a standalone system, even if Baykar thinks otherwise. The moment the data link breaks, no matter how much AI is in it, it's over. The drone has lost the air battle. We are not the US, and we are not developing Terminators like the T-800 with their own consciousness that make independent decisions.

The Hürjet doesn't interfere with the development of a fully-fledged fighter. Produce it and sell it. Very few countries in the world produce combat aircraft, and even fewer produce trainers.
The Hürjet was developed as a trainer. And the fact that it can perform other functions is a plus. Just don't compare it to the F-16, or you'll be disappointed. Its performance is best compared only to trainers, and you'll see that in some respects it even surpasses them. For example, with the Russian Yak-130. But even they have customers.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

No one is saying that the aircraft is completely wrong, only that it should have been developed as a third priority rather than a first priority ahead of the TAI KAAN.

Turkey needs as many fighter jets as possible, and Hürjet in its current form, even in its military version, is useless; it cannot fulfill this task. This is not a big deal, as it is a training/light combat aircraft for patrol and CAS missions, and KAAN will take on this role as a multi-purpose air superiority fighter alongside the F-16 Özgür II.
But without significant design changes, an aircraft like Hürjet simply has no chance against enemy aircraft as a naval platform. It is extremely underpowered as a naval fighter and can carry hardly any weapons.

To be competitive, the aircraft would need to be fueled to at least three-quarters of its capacity, with an air-to-air configuration of 6-8 AAMs, and have a thrust-to-weight ratio of at least 0.90-1.10 in this configuration to even compete with other naval aircraft.
Only one F-404 Engine in this aircraft is not capable of this.

Either you install two F-404 engines, which would then be a completely new fighter jet, or you might have had to install an F-110 from the outset and then replace it with a TF-35000 later.

 

[begturan]

No one is saying that the aircraft is completely wrong, only that it should have been developed as a third priority rather than a first priority ahead of the TAI KAAN.

Turkey needs as many fighter jets as possible, and Hürjet in its current form, even in its military version, is useless; it cannot fulfill this task. This is not a big deal, as it is a training/light combat aircraft for patrol and CAS missions, and KAAN will take on this role as a multi-purpose air superiority fighter alongside the F-16 Özgür II.
But without significant design changes, an aircraft like Hürjet simply has no chance against enemy aircraft as a naval platform. It is extremely underpowered as a naval fighter and can carry hardly any weapons.

To be competitive, the aircraft would need to be fueled to at least three-quarters of its capacity, with an air-to-air configuration of 6-8 AAMs, and have a thrust-to-weight ratio of at least 0.90-1.10 in this configuration to even compete with other naval aircraft.
Only one F-404 Engine in this aircraft is not capable of this.

Either you install two F-404 engines, which would then be a completely new fighter jet, or you might have had to install an F-110 from the outset and then replace it with a TF-35000 later.

I'm really curious about this: if a fighter jet has a long-range AESA radar, a low RCS value on the radar, and carries a long-range air-to-air missile, what difference does it make whether it's a Hürjet or an F-18?

If our goal is to achieve air dominance, why can't the Hürjet do this?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

With a single F404-class engine, the Hürjet has virtually no chance in an air-to-air duel against the Rafale M, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the F-35 B/C, or modern Russian/Chinese naval fighter jets. These opponents have significantly greater thrust reserves and superior thrust-to-weight ratios, which translate into better acceleration, higher climb rates, greater energy savings, and overall superior kinematics. In modern BVR and energy combat, it is not only maximum speed that matters, but also who can generate and consume energy faster in order to evade, reposition, and withstand fast missiles.

In addition to the propulsion disadvantage, these opponents typically have more fuel and weapons (internal or on heavier airframes).
Yes, the Hürjet has good radar systems, avionics, and sensors, as well as good ECM/EW suites, but it is not as powerful as other combat aircraft whose engines/APUs generate more energy for more range for example Radar and other Board Systems??? But even with flawless and clean system architecture and tactics, the Hürjet's propulsion class cannot compensate for these disadvantages. Without a significantly more powerful engine, the Hürjet is structurally disadvantaged in air combat – in short, effectively inferior.

 

[Sanchez]

With a single F404-class engine, the Hürjet has virtually no chance in an air-to-air duel against the Rafale M, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the F-35 B/C, or modern Russian/Chinese naval fighter jets. These opponents have significantly greater thrust reserves and superior thrust-to-weight ratios, which translate into better acceleration, higher climb rates, greater energy savings, and overall superior kinematics. In modern BVR and energy combat, it is not only maximum speed that matters, but also who can generate and consume energy faster in order to evade, reposition, and withstand fast missiles.

In addition to the propulsion disadvantage, these opponents typically have more fuel and weapons (internal or on heavier airframes).
Yes, the Hürjet has good radar systems, avionics, and sensors, as well as good ECM/EW suites, but it is not as powerful as other combat aircraft whose engines/APUs generate more energy for more range for example Radar and other Board Systems??? But even with flawless and clean system architecture and tactics, the Hürjet's propulsion class cannot compensate for these disadvantages. Without a significantly more powerful engine, the Hürjet is structurally disadvantaged in air combat – in short, effectively inferior.

True in all counts.

This is all because Hürjet is a trainer aircraft by its nature. It will have some combat capability, but never will be a thoroughbred, it wasn't designed to be.

Re carriers, I think it will nonetheless be a good enough part of naval OKU/MUM-T.

 

[boredaf]

Re carriers, I think it will nonetheless be a good enough part of naval OKU/MUM-T.

With a proper 5th gen carrier fighter? Sure, even then, I don't believe it would justify its cost.

We are talking about a project that is easily going to cost us several billions of dollars by itself, without adding the cost of the additional ships we are going to have to build to adequately protect the carrier AND not leave ourselves short in our own waters, cost of all the extra fighters we are going to have to develop and produce and the general lifetime costs of running a carrier.

Benefits we are going to get from it? Well, we'll be able to say we have a carrier. And use it in Somalia I guess? Let people walk on it during festivals like Anadolu? It is such a fucking unnecessary and vain "investment" for a country without access to open ocean that it would've been hilarious if it wasn't my own country doing it.

 

[boredaf]

I'm really curious about this: if a fighter jet has a long-range AESA radar, a low RCS value on the radar, and carries a long-range air-to-air missile, what difference does it make whether it's a Hürjet or an F-18?

If our goal is to achieve air dominance, why can't the Hürjet do this?

Hürjet doesn't have low rcs value, it carriers less than half of what F-18 could carry and it will not be using the same radar as Kaan but its underpowered version as far as I can remember, which would mean it would be at a disadvantage against real 5th gen fighters. It is a trainer first and foremost, not a fighter jet. Putting it on a carrier as other than trainer jet is a bloody disgrace especially since this carrier might have to go against not just 5th or maybe even 6th gen fighter jets, but also increasingly advanced anti-air systems as well.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

True in all counts.

This is all because Hürjet is a trainer aircraft by its nature. It will have some combat capability, but never will be a thoroughbred, it wasn't designed to be.

Re carriers, I think it will nonetheless be a good enough part of naval OKU/MUM-T.

But that's exactly the point: it's possible to produce a Gen 4.5+ aircraft relatively quickly as a trainer and light combat aircraft.
So I don't understand the concept behind it. Turkey doesn't need a trainer as an absolute immediate priority; it could have been produced in the mid- or late 2030s and nothing would have changed.
Instead, a fighter aircraft similar to the Hürjet with two F-404 engines or an F-110 engine could have been developed in parallel with the TAI KAAN as a workhorse (replacement for the F-16) in the fleet.
The Eurofighter and F-16 Block 70 orders (God knows when these will arrive, if they arrive at all) would have been obsolete; we wouldn't have needed them, and the transfer to a naval platform would also have been much easier and more competitive.
Now they are sitting on their asses because they have no answer to the Rafale/Eurofighter & F-35, SU 35S (rivals around Turkey) until TAI KAAN is completed and reaches IOC.
They have put themselves in a weaker position completely unnecessarily, and their rivals know this and are delaying delivery so that Turkey is unable to act within a certain time frame, see Israel's rapid advance and movements in the Middle East and the alliance of the US/Israel, Greece, Cyprus and India.

 

[Ripley]

But that's exactly the point: it's possible to produce a Gen 4.5+ aircraft relatively quickly as a trainer and light combat aircraft.
So I don't understand the concept behind it. Turkey doesn't need a trainer as an absolute immediate priority; it could have been produced in the mid- or late 2030s and nothing would have changed.
Instead, a fighter aircraft similar to the Hürjet with two F-404 engines or an F-110 engine could have been developed in parallel with the TAI KAAN as a workhorse (replacement for the F-16) in the fleet.
The Eurofighter and F-16 Block 70 orders (God knows when these will arrive, if they arrive at all) would have been obsolete; we wouldn't have needed them, and the transfer to a naval platform would also have been much easier and more competitive.
Now they are sitting on their asses because they have no answer to the Rafale/Eurofighter & F-35, SU 35S (rivals around Turkey) until TAI KAAN is completed and reaches IOC.
They have put themselves in a weaker position completely unnecessarily, and their rivals know this and are delaying delivery so that Turkey is unable to act within a certain time frame, see Israel's rapid advance and movements in the Middle East and the alliance of the US/Israel, Greece, Cyprus and India.

Hürjet started in 2017. Back then it was envisioned as a super trainer for future F35 fleet. It was urgently needed. Hence, as Boredaf pointed out, it was a purebred trainer, even before a ski jump TCG Anadolu requested.
MUGEM came only recently, well after the jet Hürjet was completed.
Where and how TUSAŞ should have switched to a twin engine in that timetable? A naval jet never needed because F35 C was considered for TCG Anadolu.

Edit: F35 B. Stand corrected.

 

[Iskander]

The article I linked to (Signal to Israel: Turkish and Egyptian navies and air forces to conduct joint exercises) is generally dull and uninteresting, but the comments are quite interesting: they offer a Russian perspective on Turkish warships and shipbuilding, the KAAN project, the TF-35000 engine, the standoff with Israel, and much more.
It's sometimes interesting to know what your neighbors think of you, especially Russia.
(When Russians write "Sultan" or "padishah," they mean Erdogan )

https://en.topwar.ru/271120-signal-izrailju-vms-i-vvs-turcii-i-egipta-provedut-sovmestnye-uchenija.html

 

[Sanchez]

This design was shared around a few times on twitter today, probably will be shared here soon as well; so better to get ahead of it.
This is Navtek's CATOBAR design from 2023. It's not new, and we don't know if DPO entertained the idea of a CATOBAR carrier in 2023.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2046873027397214373

 

[Yasar_TR]

According to this information the MUGEM will be protected by 2/3 Destroyers, 3/2 frigates and couple of MILDEN subs. Also in terms of self protection it will have a 32 cell VLS, 4 x Gokdeniz CWIS and 7 x RCWS guns. (Hopefully - although not mentioned but shown - a couple of GOKSUR point defence systems as well)

In terms of aircraft it seems like there will be Hurjets, KE and Anka-3 drones. But this carrier will need Seahawk Class helicopters for assault and ASW for protection too. Plus heavy lift multi purpose helicopters that are sea worthy.
Hurjet with twin seats and KEs and Anka-3s will be good to work together. As Hurjets will not be stealthy, what they lack in this area can be compensated to a degree by the two stealthy drones.

But a lot of systems and equipment mentioned here is either not ready or non existent yet. Some of them can be summarised as :

1. MUGEM really needs a commensurate aircraft that will do it justice. Currently there is nothing.
2. All aircraft engines and aircrafts themselves will have to be navalised.
3. MUGEM needs a tried and tested Arrester Wire system for the aircrafts it will operate. This means that the system will have to be suitable for a 5-6 ton drone and a 10-12 ton fighter jet. (Whereas EMALS can vary weights it can handle, hydraulic systems are usually not very forgiving with wide weight tolerances)
4. Many of the self protection systems and naval ships are not ready yet. Some of them are still on paper. By the time MUGEM is ready, there will be more supersonic and hypersonic AShMs and ballistic AShMs around. Self protection will have to cover these too.
5. If Hurjet is to be used as manned aircraft, then it needs a bigger wing area with a more powerful engine like f414 or EJ200 to give it better lift and higher load capability (F35C has 45% more wing area than F35A - 62.1m2 vs 42.7m2). But these engines will have to be navalised too. (Preferably an indigenous engine will be the right way to go. But that also needs money and time)

TCG Anadolu is almost a third of this ship. It’s first steel cutting was in April 2016. It joined the Navy in April 2023 with many equipment still missing. This was in-spite of the technical help we received from Navantia. MUGEM is a different and more complex ship. Being operational can take as long as 2040 or more.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

But this carrier will need Seahawk Class helicopters for assault and ASW for protection too. Plus heavy lift multi purpose helicopters that are sea worthy.

What are the chances in getting cooperation from Leonardo (Agusta/Westland) to convert some T925s to an ASW/ASuW chopper from their experience with Lynx/Wildcat?
Since we're in very good terms with Italy regarding defence industry matters.

We're capable of manufacturing the radar, avionics, E/O, mission computer, weapon systems and ordnance etc.
We're not there yet with making them seaworthy albeit some AH-1s were modified to an extent.

 

[Sanchez]

What are the chances in getting cooperation from Leonardo (Agusta/Westland) to convert some T925s to an ASW/ASuW chopper from their experience with Lynx/Wildcat?
Since we're in very good terms with Italy regarding defence industry matters.

We're capable of manufacturing the radar, avionics, E/O, mission computer, weapon systems and ordnance etc.
We're not there yet with making them seaworthy albeit some AH-1s were modified to an extent.

AH-1s are navalized by their nature.

TAI of 2010 is very different from TAI of 2026. This is nothing they can't handle themselves with support from Havelsan

 

[Yasar_TR]

What are the chances in getting cooperation from Leonardo (Agusta/Westland) to convert some T925s to an ASW/ASuW chopper from their experience with Lynx/Wildcat?
Since we're in very good terms with Italy regarding defence industry matters.

We're capable of manufacturing the radar, avionics, E/O, mission computer, weapon systems and ordnance etc.
We're not there yet with making them seaworthy albeit some AH-1s were modified to an extent.

Bro, Our problem is the engine for the ASW helicopter and the T925.
With the Ukranian engine the helicopter is not really what the Navy wants. If we had the engine, we would have the rest anyway.
Italians and the British use SNECMA engines. We wouldn’t want French engines.
Navy has given an order for 56 Gokbey helicopters. They could be used for ASW if navalised. But they are no replacement for a Seahawk.

By the way, if I remember correctly we bought those Süper Cobra helicopters from US Marines. So they came in already navalised.