Historical Warship Design and History

[Gary]

Technical Drawings of a Yamato Class BB. Part 1

@ANMDT

 

[Nilgiri]

Technical Drawings of a Yamato Class BB. Part 1

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@ANMDT

The interesting approach with Yamato was the incorporation lived lessons/experience from such classes as Fuso and Nagato .

This shows in the boilerwork and funnel plumbing for it...given the severe issues that arose from the earlier classes not designing this as a priority but rather side by side with the bridge/mast (pagoda) and weapon requirements etc. This caused a number of awkward retrofits in these classes to improve navigation, comms and overall officer viability from the bridge especially in unfriendly combat situations.

With Yamato (given it was going to be especially bigger than anything else), the propulsion had to be well prioritised (hence you see the super boiler size and super funnel approach and having it slanted away from the bridge etc).

However this eventually made Yamato class quite something of a resource hog too and it was not a marathon runner by any stretch, and thus saw limited actual combat of relevance in WW2...given the stretched logistical nature of the theatres where persistence and endurance was crucial.

The sobering lessons of real war can be quite crushing...even when you design something seemingly to handle it better. All improvements can have tradeoffs, some hidden for a long time too.

 

[Gary]

The interesting approach with Yamato was the incorporation lived lessons/experience from such classes as Fuso and Nagato .

This shows in the boilerwork and funnel plumbing for it...given the severe issues that arose from the earlier classes not designing this as a priority but rather side by side with the bridge/mast (pagoda) and weapon requirements etc. This caused a number of awkward retrofits in these classes to improve navigation, comms and overall officer viability from the bridge especially in unfriendly combat situations.

With Yamato (given it was going to be especially bigger than anything else), the propulsion had to be well prioritised (hence you see the super boiler size and super funnel approach and having it slanted away from the bridge etc).

However this eventually made Yamato class quite something of a resource hog too and it was not a marathon runner by any stretch, and thus saw limited actual combat of relevance in WW2...given the stretched logistical nature of the theatres where persistence and endurance was crucial.

The sobering lessons of real war can be quite crushing...even when you design something seemingly to handle it better. All improvements can have tradeoffs, some hidden for a long time too.

There's more to come. I'll post it soon.

 

[Anmdt]

Damage handling in WWII era ships, the report is covering the cases in depth, and damage handling was crucial back in time, as much as firepower and armor of the ship which is highly related with training and morale of the personnel. Unlike modern era, the computations took place by hand and heavily relied on experience of commanders of particular (chief captain for stability) .
Basics of hierarchical system in ships ,the wikipedia article covers basics of the management system which similarly exists in warships with slightly different roles optimized for warships.
The link below is the report of the damage and repairs of the multiple WWII era ships suffered aerial bombardment, torpedo or explosion damage.
https://www.history.navy.mil/resear.../s/structural-repairs-forward-areas-wwii.html

 

[Gary]

Technical Drawings of a Yamato Class BB. Part 1

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@ANMDT

Technical Drawings of a Yamato Class BB part 2

 

[Nilgiri]

Thread dedicated to exploring and analysing historical ship designs.

A modern ship design thread may also be created down the road for more modern designs.

Yamato class will be the first concept of study (posts of relevance will now be brought here from engineering stuff thread).

 

[Anmdt]

Mostly addressed as faulty- Yamato's belt connection detail which has resulted in less torpedo resilience.
This issue was pointed out in initial design stage -as reported- but over-looked by top admirals and chief engineers. Thus, the torpedo belt was not protective as expected.

Damage of Musashi, not torpedo strikes are distributed on starboard and port sides, and the ship has withstanded over 20 torpedo strikes, and multiple bombs and hundreds of sorties conducted by USN aircraft carriers. This has once proved, battleships were useless without air support, and advanced radars to encounter attacks, no matter how strong it is made or how well designed.

Yamato's damage plan, note that torpedo strikes are clumped on port side, yamato was sunk in remarkably shorter time compared to the musashi, on its way to kamikaze mission to beach on an island and literally become "unsinkable" and used as a coastal cannon. The ship has started to list toward ports and sunk in a short time and took less sorties than musashi, it should be noted that Yamato was also on its mission without air support, or adequate fire-control radar and proximity-fuse AA munition.

Half symmetry of Midship plan of Yamato and musashi, the torpedo belt -extra thick protection layer- covers about %61 of the length.

Yamato and Musashi was made to withstand at least 11 torpedo strikes from a side, yet both ships were caught alone,or rather sent away without air assets- in their missions and both accelerated their speed to 30+ speeds to reduce chances of receiving torpedo damage. Moreover, yamato was sent on a mission with half-fuel destined to not return, both ships haven't activated their damage handling procedures, and haven't turn on their water pumps -which was pretty strong compared to same era ships- , pointed out as a lack of damage handling training, or acception of what is inevitable by the commander.

 

[Gary]

Yamato class design part 3

 

[Gary]

Yamato class Part 4
Hull Structure and Armor Details

 

[Saithan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1330261889251766282

Design of the anchor as we know it by Iskitie philosoph Anacharsis. Iskits are of Turkish origin. Apparently

 

[Nilgiri]

Largest submarines ever made. Complements largest battleship ever made already in this thread.

8.25 min mark... resonant interactions "propping" up again literally...heh @anmdt

Whole video is worth a watch tho, interesting details and perspectives.

Example: 24 minute mark what kind of things sonar can detect

(this has been something popping up in forum lately overall)

Vasily, one ping only please! (Sorry couldn't resist lmao)

@#comcom @UkroTurk @Vergennes @Test7 @Kartal1 @Saithan @Madokafc @Paro @trishna_amrta

 

[trishna_amrta]

Largest submarines ever made. Complements largest battleship ever made already in this thread.

8.25 min mark... resonant interactions "propping" up again literally...heh @anmdt

Whole video is worth a watch tho, interesting details and perspectives.

Example: 24 minute mark what kind of things sonar can detect

(this has been something popping up in forum lately overall)

Vasily, one ping only please! (Sorry couldn't resist lmao)

@#comcom @UkroTurk @Vergennes @Test7 @Kartal1 @Saithan @Madokafc @Paro @trishna_amrta

Very typical of Rusky engineering philosophy there. Either they making it faster, bigger, thicker, or just doubling down on everything without much of technological innovation. I doubt the Typhoon has acoustic dampener in the same level such as their US counterpart (Ohio class).

 

[Gary]

Largest submarines ever made. Complements largest battleship ever made already in this thread.

8.25 min mark... resonant interactions "propping" up again literally...heh @anmdt

Whole video is worth a watch tho, interesting details and perspectives.

Example: 24 minute mark what kind of things sonar can detect

(this has been something popping up in forum lately overall)

Vasily, one ping only please! (Sorry couldn't resist lmao)

@#comcom @UkroTurk @Vergennes @Test7 @Kartal1 @Saithan @Madokafc @Paro @trishna_amrta

The latest Russian Yuri class ssbn left this double hull design if I'm not mistaken, any idea why?

 

[ANGMAR]

wow looks nice
can you get Bismarck designs ?

 

[Nilgiri]

The latest Russian Yuri class ssbn left this double hull design if I'm not mistaken, any idea why?

It is very pricey to go double hull for what you get in the end.

Design driver for typhoon was the immense huge SLBMs it carried (picked that size and range to outrange the ohio's) and they designed outwards from it basically to this immense size Sub for it.

But essentially you pay 2 - 2.5 times (costs, tonnage, maintenance, upgrade costs etc) for about the same deterrence power value (it carries 20 SLBM and new borei class carries 16).

Russians figured out its better to invest into other things for the sub, taking a more complete long term picture of its service life and qualitative deterrence...and fact you can get more hulls for same price essentially, more peas to hide under more cups.

 

[Anmdt]

8.25 min mark... resonant interactions "propping" up again literally...heh @anmdt

I am pretty sure this was the dialogue when that resonance was captured in initial tests of earlier submarine, by Russian engineers:

It could have been anything; a hydrodynamic coupling between propeller flows at outlet, a separated flow on the aft forced back into propeller by suction (thus not seen on scaled experiments), flutter of control surfaces or an off-the-consideration excitation occuring at wet frequency of the control surface induced by unsync blade position .
The extension referred as tongue, can also be referred as a skew (forgot the actual terminology) was present on slender ships with double propellers to separate interaction of propellers (this was rather a secondary purpose, after course-keeping).
What is more surprising, the propeller doesn't seem like the high-skew propeller often seen on US and British subs of the same era (neither it resembles a pump-jet configuration or a thicker nozzle with acoustic dampeners). It could have been another technological challenge in those years to install a single propeller with high number of blades and highly skew to generate an efficient and silent propulsion. (also multi-pressure hulls which was have to be used due to the lack of advancement in material and construction techniques)


This is similar to what seen on the video(5 blades):

This is what applied as a modern solution on submarines (7 bladed high-skew), almost as a de-jure and propeller geometry is not a secret anymore, the actual secrets are what installed at the tip of propeller (hub of propeller) and around it (nozzle, control surface tip-covers, control surface edge modificaitons, flow conditioners):

Also a similar propeller can be seen on Ohio class, these usually kept secret covered in veil to induce another mystery at launching ceremony, again as told above, it is not the propeller which is veiled:

Secret Screws

www.armscontrolwonk.com

 

[Nilgiri]

What is more surprising, the propeller doesn't seem like the high-skew propeller often seen on US and British subs of the same era. It could have been another technological challenge in those years to install a single propeller with high number of blades and highly skew to generate an efficient and silent propulsion. (also multi-pressure hulls which was have to be used due to advancement in material and construction techniques)

This is related news:

Toshiba President, Chairman Resign in Soviet Machine Sales Case

TOKYO (AP) _ The president and chairman of Toshiba Corp. resigned today after the United States moved to punish the company for selling the Soviet Union secret technology that will help Soviet submarines escape detection.

apnews.com

It was actually referenced in a few books I have on the world's submarines.

 

[Quasar]

Damage handling in WWII era ships, the report is covering the cases in depth, and damage handling was crucial back in time, as much as firepower and armor of the ship which is highly related with training and morale of the personnel. Unlike modern era, the computations took place by hand and heavily relied on experience of commanders of particular (chief captain for stability) .
Basics of hierarchical system in ships ,the wikipedia article covers basics of the management system which similarly exists in warships with slightly different roles optimized for warships.
The link below is the report of the damage and repairs of the multiple WWII era ships suffered aerial bombardment, torpedo or explosion damage.
https://www.history.navy.mil/resear.../s/structural-repairs-forward-areas-wwii.html

Guess the case of Yorktown in the battle of Midway was a very good example that almost everyone knows very well after being hit by three bombs repair efforts had been so effective that the Japanese pilots assumed that Yorktown must be a different undamaged carrier. here we are talking about the same Yorktown which was brought back to action for Midway just with in 3 days after a serious damage she recived in battle of coral sea.

 

[Anmdt]

The latest Russian Yuri class ssbn left this double hull design if I'm not mistaken, any idea why?

Probably a better material and construction technique was introduced to allow for a single larger tube. Moreover it makes more sense to install a single propeller since each shafting and gears cause acoustic raditation, also each of the propeller. If not well managed it would create a crazy acoustic signature with tonals from RPS of propellers by 1,2,3,4,5 multiples. There would be an additional noise at lower frequencies than the RPS due to an interaction occuring in wake region and probably be picked out from long distances.
going single propeller also requires installation of a larger propeller (also conforms the pressure on the propeller surface thus lowers noise) controllers on gears and propellers to operate in uneven conditons when the ship has surfaced. So these all points toward an advancement in technology, or a hand helping them out like the one was pointed by @Nilgiri

 

[Nilgiri]

Probably a better material and construction technique was introduced to allow for a single larger tube. Moreover it makes more sense to install a single propeller since each shafting and gears cause acoustic raditation, also each of the propeller. If not well managed it would create a crazy acoustic signature with tonals from RPS of propellers by 1,2,3,4,5 multiples. There would be an additional noise at lower frequencies than the RPS due to an interaction occuring in wake region and probably be picked out from long distances.
going single propeller also requires installation of a larger propeller (also conforms the pressure on the propeller surface thus lowers noise) controllers on gears and propellers to operate in uneven conditons when the ship has surfaced. So these all points toward an advancement in technology, or a hand helping them out like the one was pointed by @Nilgiri

Gonna tag Joe "I Read HISTORY!" Shearer hehe for his perusal at his leisure when he pops by next

.... his head won't hurt this time since the thread is historical stuff heh (it's in the title even!).

@Joe Shearer