Broadsheet Saga. Tale of mega corruption.

Kaptaan

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Yet 650,000 people were detained in the upheaval and 230,000 people were prosecuted in military courts, according to official figures. About 300 people died in prison, including 171 who died after being tortured.
No fcuking about with Broadsheet. Instead 100s hauled to prisons, tortured, killed. 230,000 prosecuted in military courts. Since Pakistan has larger population then Pakistan to put this context Musharaf would have had to -

  • 2 million detained
  • 1 million prosecuted in military courts
  • 1,2000 tortured and killed.

Trust me if Musharaf had done this in 2001 there would be no Broadsheet, no Nawaz family, no Zarari family etc etc and today a very sobered up polity.
 

Kaptaan

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I do apologise to @Kaptaan for my strong minded views since I do respect him much for years,from my PDF times
No need for apology. I don;'t come to forums for my thoughts being bouncing around like echo chamber. I love debate and discourse. My point was if you hold views and you post them they ought to be fleshed up some reasoning behind it. I will post a rejoinder to the points you made later.
 

Costin84

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No fcuking about with Broadsheet. Instead 100s hauled to prisons, tortured, killed. 230,000 prosecuted in military courts. Since Pakistan has larger population then Pakistan to put this context Musharaf would have had to -

  • 2 million detained
  • 1 million prosecuted in military courts
  • 1,2000 tortured and killed.

Trust me if Musharaf had done this in 2001 there would be no Broadsheet, no Nawaz family, no Zarari family etc etc and today a very sobered up polity.
I agree that is easy to cull nefarious elements in society with a strong man at the helm but what did he do for the economy?
A strong state needs strong institutions to fight corruption and help economic growth. Ofcourse, it goes without saying that you can't have baying for blood mobs ransacking things every now and then but the Pakistani military should have concerned itself with building those institutions instead of greedy grabbing 20% of the income of the impoverished, indebted Pakistani people every year.

I Know,India bad but sir.....your budget is 60 billion $ per year....the military consumes 20% of that....most of it comes from loans....Romania, and I'm not dick measuring, just an example, the 2nd most poor nation in the EU has a budget of 90 billion! With 11 times less population.....
 

Costin84

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Ahhh now I remember you. I was fooled by that Roman Eagle standard. Good to see you here and hope everything is cool in [London]?
Near London....Chelmsford....lockdown,all good. Thank you
 

Nilgiri

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Please keep in mind there is precious little differance in living conditions between Pakistan and India.

20 billion saved a year versus 1 trillion saved a year says very different. Is that 7 times or something bit more than that?

You can see the results of it bear out this decade some more.

The past decade already put this chasm behind us, just sticking to Turkey:


I can dig out the numbers if you want. Ertugul simping (like PRC simping) doesnt generate and contribute I'm afraid. But then again mass-scale bollywood simping downstream from 1971 even (any other country would do this? after getting cut to size?).....I'll never figure out this chasm that's for sure.

Pakistan has had pretenders going as 'strong men'. This is what a 'strong man' or a 'head chopper' looks like.

Sure so start a thread asking the Turkish members here about that era then. It might be important to get their idea on how the perceive it....and the results and legacy achieved as a starter.

Not to mention Ataturk institutional basis (that Pakistan never achieved one iota of from the get go).

I think you need to read about Ataturk, Gen Evren or even Gen Kim Park of South Korea.

Again these fellows never were beset by the psyche rot.

They knew the well-established names of their nations throughout history very clearly....the names had been written a long long time, no overnight invention of "purity" needed (that too on religion not even originated in the place)...and then clawing back always internally to make things fit.

It is instrumental to Ataturk choosing Turkish identity core (for foundation narrative) and opting for secularism, as just one example. i.e Keep things simple and well rooted.

No Qasim this and that, "nation started with him". (As downstream consistent that is at least to the foundation narrative at least).
 

Kaptaan

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I Know,India bad but sir.....your budget is 60 billion $ per year....the military consumes 20% of that....most of it comes from loans....Romania, and I'm not dick measuring, just an example, the 2nd most poor nation in the EU has a budget of 90 billion! With 11 times less population.....
Whilst the figures you state are correct [although do note that there is huge informal economy which does not get registered in the stats but is real. I went to Pakistan this summer and I could see it with my eyes. The numbers and what I saw did not match but that is altogether another matter. On the subject of the military trust me it's not the cause for Pakistan's malaise. Religion, corrupt political class, mullah class that was cultivated during the Cold War as hedge against the Left by Pakistani ruling elite, US geo-politics and Saudi funding are the primary causes for economic stagnation. Put it simply elite capture conjoined with religious madness.

But all said and done it's not like India is shining like South Korea and Pakistan is starving like North Korea. The differances in economic performance is like splitting hairs. So what is india's excuse. They don't have Pakistan Army leaching them. Just compare Romania's budget to India's a country 70 times, yes 70 times more population.
 

Kaptaan

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20 billion saved a year versus 1 trillion saved a year says very different. Is that 7 times or something bit more than that?
Why not show your GDP per capita. Over most of the last 70 years Pakistan was leadin g India. Now you took a lead by a few inches and your going into fits of ecstasy. Why not compare yourself to counry your size like China?
 

Kaptaan

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Ffs you only took over Pakistan in the last few years and now your declaring end of time. Ignoring that India was lagging behind for decades or as was described as Hindu rate of growth.


p3.png
 

Nilgiri

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Why not show your GDP per capita. Over most of the last 70 years Pakistan was leadin g India. Now you took a lead by a few inches and your going into fits of ecstasy. Why not compare yourself to counry your size like China?

GDP is overrated figure for bulk of cold war (given it did not measure non USD liquidty based activity very well at all given small trade volume involved).

India was doing better than China on that number, which is laughable if you look at the energy consumption (far higher in China) for example.

It has improved somewhat nowadays with PPP and so on....but still overrated metric as govt's all have ways to distort it.

I like to look at numbers that are not reliant on govt as far as possible (ones that need handshake vetting or well established remote sensing etc). Things like trade, investment and so on.

I have already explained multiple times why a savings rate is instrumental on this too, so I am not going to re-hash on that.

But guess how Pakistan is doing on those? 7 times worse commensurate to population? Then the "hidden economy" is trotted out always. OK. State Bank of Pakistan papers indicate something else far larger as the big issue...they just can't say it out loud you see.
 

Kaptaan

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But guess how Pakistan is doing on those?
You can flog all the excuses you want. But I posted a chart straight from World Bank which is quite clear in showing what I said. Your not going to accept that. The grand figures you quote for India are the gross. Any country with nearly 1.4 billion population will have grand numbers. But the reality is India is a dirt poor country. And you only marginally took over Pakistan ten years ago and now like a child whose got his first toy scream "shining, shining" which merely exposes your fragile achievement of having overtaken a neighbouring counry wrecked by WOT, instability in Afghanistan and oh being trampled by Pakistan Army.

So what was your excuse for lagging for the previous six, yes 6 decades? Let me guess. No toilets held you back?
 

Costin84

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Whilst the figures you state are correct [although do note that there is huge informal economy which does not get registered in the stats but is real. I went to Pakistan this summer and I could see it with my eyes. The numbers and what I saw did not match but that is altogether another matter. On the subject of the military trust me it's not the cause for Pakistan's malaise. Religion, corrupt political class, mullah class that was cultivated during the Cold War as hedge against the Left by Pakistani ruling elite, US geo-politics and Saudi funding are the primary causes for economic stagnation. Put it simply elite capture conjoined with religious madness.

But all said and done it's not like India is shining like South Korea and Pakistan is starving like North Korea. The differances in economic performance is like splitting hairs. So what is india's excuse. They don't have Pakistan Army leaching them. Just compare Romania's budget to India's a country 70 times, yes 70 times more population.

Never said that India is a shining example, I have no bone in this fight, I'm equally disgusted by Hindu mobs torching churches, mosques as I am of Muslim mobs torching temples or anti Seleka torching mosques in the Central African Republic. Religion is a historical tradition and a general set of moral guidance rules for me not an enforcer of my life.
I actually think that Modi might destroy one good thing India had for her, the general ideea that India is built on democracy, not an a cult dominating the other.
As per the factors you've listed as contributing to Pakistan s misery throughout the decades, many Army strongmen from Yahia Khan,to Ayub Khan,Zia ul Hak to Musharaf had any opportunities to stop this process but they were either content to live with it or actively encouraged it,hence, they're not a solution.A strong state with strong institutions is.
 

Nilgiri

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You can flog all the excuses you want. But I posted a chart straight from World Bank which is quite clear in showing what I said. Your not going to accept that. The grand figures you quote for India are the gross. Any country with nearly 1.4 billion population will have grand numbers. But the reality is India is a dirt poor country. And you only marginally took over Pakistan ten years ago and now like a child whose got his first toy scream "shining, shining" which merely exposes your fragile achievement of having overtaken a neighbouring counry wrecked by WOT, instability in Afghanistan and oh being trampled by Pakistan Army.

So what was your excuse for lagging for the previous six, yes 6 decades? Let me guess. No toilets held you back?

OK you can do the same spiel as you want. I can retort with what held ya back on basic mortality rates, polio and demographic transition if "GDP" was such an out-perfomer for so long from your end? Anyone govt person can jot/claim a toilet on some stat they want to....but health metrics are far harder to fudge, guess how Pakistan's doing on those (even according to itself)? @Paro

If we are talking about accumulated integral of real production (that GDP tries to estimate) aka wealth...what does the picture look like for India per capita?

indwealth.jpg


A mean wealth of 17.3k USD per adult
A median wealth of 4k per adult.

Take a wild guess what these say in Pakistan's case? Take your guess and then find the number for yourself if you want:


The basic unfurling of why savings rate and real economy (not driven by loan top ups and loan cycles because no one knows 1 - 2 - 3 of getting out of that rut) matters.

This all leads to this forum being created in first place ironically heh. i.e The inability to save what needed to be save (so you can prove it where it needs to be)....but just blab it non stop (consumption) instead.

It's awful. But hey your loss, our gain. Cha-ching we say as we get past 10 billion in exports to Turkey...maybe Turkey and/or Pakistan should put a tax on ertugul instagram angry simp posts "hey why are you ertugul actress in bikini?....thats not halal!"....that'd be a real money earner lol.
 

Saiyan0321

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The tragedy of Pakistan is not that it did never got dictators. It did. But they all turned out to be weak, pathetic little men


The dictators, like the politicians solely wanted to rule in the maximum capacity that they can. The Turkish military and Pakistan military have a huge difference. The Turkish military saw themselves as guardians of the kemalist legacy and ideology (to attribute their involvement to Turkish history would be wrong). This job was given to them by their leader and founding father of the nation. Jinnah never gave the Pakistan army any such job, infact he is on record in having told them to stay away from politics.

So first major difference is the wishes of the founding father.

Then comes the second major difference which is ideology. The Turkish army saw themselves guardian of the ideology of kemal and for this they would carve for themselves constitutional roles, most notable of it being the NSC whose rules and procedures are considered as one of the most secret documents in Turkey. So kemalism but Pakistan army sees itself as guardian of the country and the only institution that has order. Indeed during the years of 1952-58 the institution of the army tool great pride in being the only orderly institution in Pakistan and looked at the political mess in disdain and while British military tradition always see the military as free from the chaos of politics (never the less subservient to the politicians) the events of 1945-1958 and the division of the army (which had a profound impact on the growth and formation of the nascent Pakistani army) left political marks on the military.

These two differences are very important since they separate the roles and the mindset of the two armies. Infact I would say that even now, Pakistan army struggles to figure out what model of role should the military have in Pakistan. Driver of economics, sole defense, politics directly, politics indirectly and what ideology to support, Islamic nature, secular nature, a mix of both perhaps. These questions still plague the military on how it perceives its role in Pakistan.

With that when the dictators took the reigns of power, they were protecting no ideology nor were they hunting politicians nor corruptions. Indeed everytime their excuse was always that the country was on the brink and they had saved it whereas there is unanimous opinion amongst political thinkers that the country was not even close to that. Infact the most dangerous situation the country found itself in was in 1972 and during that period we had the politician but they used this excuse and junior officers and the institution truly believed that such was the goal of the dictator. We see this in how they went about their business of rule.

Ayub khan punished nobody and focused solely on bringing single military rule. His hatred for politics, attributed to his military training and later events, made him ban political parties and processions and any form of protest. His 1962 constitution reeks of self-indulgence, something you would not expect from a person that wishes to "save the nation". It was in his era that the wealth was truly accumulated amongst a few families. Ayub had no ideological goal or vision.

Yahya khan realized that the political situation of the country demanded a better framework but he also wanted security for his power. He repeatedly tries to cut any deal with Bhutto or mujib that would see him in power.

Then comes Zia. Zia went 180 and used Islamism as his ideology to secure his rule. At one time both liaqat and ayub, in their respective eras, had both showed disgust for the mullah, where the former declared Islam has no clergy and these posers should not be entertained and the latter showed disgust at the idea of entertaining the mullah and their ridiculous demands, most notable of it was making Friday an off day. Zia came under the same banner of "saving the nation" but, like his predecessors, he had no idea nor interest in doing that, since there was an absence of ideology, a goal. He would go on to implant the Islamic ideology and try to make Islam the central goal of the country however his efforts would only polarize the country since Pakistan, a land of diversity and thought even amongst Islamic thinking was not going to receive strict Islamic doctrines of Saudi, well.

By the time musharraf came to power, it was dejavu all over again. "Saving the nation" but have no clue. Musharraf from day one tried to secure his own personal power, most notable was the creation of PmLQ from IJI party which would contain some of the most corrupt people in the country. Aleem Khan is one example. Such corruption that the people literally hate his name. Another thing is often ignored in the modernist musharraf figure is that he built and brought to power MMA and let me tell you something. When he passed the LFO, it contained within itself the requirement that you needed a graduate degree to contest election. Now amongst the programs mentioned, he specifically mentions madrassas as well which give equivalent degrees. This was done to empower the Islamic parties. The entire JUI-F and MMA literally ran on their madrassah certifications. He could have saved KPK from MMA but he literally helped them get to power and the result was that MMA allowed for swat to fall and supported the Sharia implementation in regions of KPK and FATA. They impeded the military operations as much as they could back then.


All of them were interested in self-rule solely. Lacking ideology and goals, they sought only power. The Pakistani military also needs to carve out what ideological role it sees for itself and what path must it take. Should it go the Indonesian route or Turkish route. Either way they need to decide fast.
 
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adenl

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There's no end to them, if you don't improve two crucial things: psyche and institutions.

Some strong guy, hang-man or head chopper isn't going to do anything at all...other than establish his rule (i.e buy some time for "aint I greatest thing since sliced bread"???) by doing such things.

Then he inevitably becomes a scapegoat after the illegal tenure anyway.....simply by the much longer time in play w.r.t psyche and intuitions (compared to one person-prime-stronk) ...i.e broader "them-elistists" (that also pushed for mr. stronk, had passive-aggressive relationship during tenure and then got bitter at end) realising they got taken for a ride (but cannot or will not introspect themselves on it either).

Really if you unpack NRO/NAB/Broadsheet to its base and core, thats the story of Pakistan predicament summarized and crystallized...."strong"-men and everything.
In dutch we have a term for this: 'soft healers make stinking wounds'
 

VCheng

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Ok maybe be an actual gutsy man/super chad and close shop on NAB then...surely?

Pakistani constitution + judicial branch ought to handle these things right?

Just thinking out loud on some basics here...folks that are sure-footed and secure in their skin kind of things. National ethos and narrative, that whole dealio.

Is a PM even allowed to say NAB was a mistake to begin with, or is that part of the bouncer questioning before entry to the music chair game party?

Genuinely curious, maybe we can ask mr. all-rounder chad post-retirement when auntie-maryam running the show....lmao.

Wonder if he'll move to UK too for that soapbox spectacle stuff too (joining the cavalcade). KSA these days is a bit too MBS-ey or something for that, things never were the same after lal topi sweet cheeks moment.

@VCheng

It would be pertinent to recall that NAB was gifted to the nation by a dictator, to add to the bounty of the blasphemy laws, also gifted by another dictator, in the grand traditions of the institution that keeps on gifting, present all-rounder setup included.
 

VCheng

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Paksitan needs a strong man for minimum of 10 years who cleans the whole country out. But this will never be allowed by the powers to be and thus Pakistan will forever remain a corruption infested place. A shame really because the Pakistani people deserve much better.

Don't people get the government they deserve?
 

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