TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

An Overview about the UMTAS Family.

BaburKhan said:

An Overview about the UMTAS Family.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1770437549468586136

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We were sad that we only had M72LAW anti-tank missiles In the old days, we was even looking for RPG7 but look at today we cant even count how many guided anti tank missiles we have! Cirit, Yatagan, Karaok, Omtas families, Umtas families and others...

Making a long range AA missiles benefits limited to a bit longer no escape zone due to draining energy of the missiles against low altitute defensive maneuvares of the fighters if the tracking range of nose radar of J17s is shorter than gökdoğans range ,but gökdoğan is double rocket motor and makes these advantage less prominent.

zio said:

Making a long range AA missiles benefits limited to a bit longer no escape zone due to draining energy of the missiles against low altitute defensive maneuvares of the fighters if the tracking range of nose radar of J17s is shorter than gökdoğans range ,but gökdoğan is double rocket motor and makes these advantage less prominent.

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Do you mean Gokdogan has a dual pulse motor? There is no confirmation yet.

zio said:

Making a long range AA missiles benefits limited to a bit longer no escape zone due to draining energy of the missiles against low altitute defensive maneuvares of the fighters if the tracking range of nose radar of J17s is shorter than gökdoğans range ,but gökdoğan is double rocket motor and makes these advantage less prominent.

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Sorry to be a bit pedantic . But this post isn’t very explanatory of Gokdogan as it is contradictory in it self and doesn’t really explain what you are really trying to convey.

Gokdogan is a BVR air to air missile specifically produced to replace our Aim120 AMRAAM series. Unlike the Aim120 that uses dual thrust engines which gives initial high speed and then a sustain mode to the missile, our Gokdogan, if what below article is correct, apparently has a dual pulse engine which is analogous to higher spec and longer range missile performance levels. We already know that our missile has well exceeded the 100km range. The engine class Gokdogan uses is used by US and Chinese in their 200km + range a2a missiles.

Gokdogan does not have double motor.
It apparently has a dual pulse motor. This is, in a broad sense, a solid fuel propellent motor that has two sections of fuel tank whereby the missile uses first section to gain high speed and cruise towards target. Then as it‘s speed decreases and engages target it will use the fuel in the second section to give it more thrust and less chance for the target to escape, in the terminal phase.

quote:
Powered by solid fuel dual pulse rocket motor GÖKDOĞAN can travel at a speed of Mach 4.
unquote.

Yasar_TR said:

Sorry to be a bit pedantic . But this post isn’t very explanatory of Gokdogan as it is contradictory in it self and doesn’t really explain what you are really trying to convey.

Gokdogan is a BVR air to air missile specifically produced to replace our Aim120 AMRAAM series. Unlike the Aim120 that uses dual thrust engines which gives initial high speed and then a sustain mode to the missile, our Gokdogan, if what below article is correct, apparently has a dual pulse engine which is analogous to higher spec and longer range missile performance levels. We already know that our missile has well exceeded the 100km range. The engine class Gokdogan uses is used by US and Chinese in their 200km + range a2a missiles.

Gokdogan does not have double motor.
It apparently has a dual pulse motor. This is, in a broad sense, a solid fuel propellent motor that has two sections of fuel tank whereby the missile uses first section to gain high speed and cruise towards target. Then as it‘s speed decreases and engages target it will use the fuel in the second section to give it more thrust and less chance for the target to escape, in the terminal phase.

quote:
Powered by solid fuel dual pulse rocket motor GÖKDOĞAN can travel at a speed of Mach 4.
unquote.

President ERDOĞAN Announces Successful Test of BOZDOĞAN WVR Air-to-Air Missile

On April 14, 2021, President Recep Tayyip ERDOĞAN announced that the BOZDOĞAN IIR guided within visual range (WVR) air-to-air missile developed by youth Turkish technicians and engineers under GÖKTUĞ Project has successfully destroyed its target (TUSAŞ`s ŞİMŞEK high-Speed target Drone) during...

www.defenceturkey.com

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Simulation: if AIM 120 had dual pulse.


What is the dual pulse:

UkroTurk said:

View attachment 66724
View attachment 66726 View attachment 66727

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The Aim120 missiles are all boost+sustain mode (dual thrust) operation missiles.


There was a development work re dual pulse. But if memory serves, it only was planned to be used in Aim 260 which has boost+cruise+boost mode of operation.

Yasar_TR said:

The Aim120 missiles are all boost+sustain mode (dual thrust) operation missiles.

AIM-120 AMRAAM Archives | Air & Space Forces Magazine

AMRAAM is an active radar-guided, medium-range, supersonic air-to-air missile. It is a joint USAF-Navy follow-on to the AIM-7 Sparrow with launch-and-maneuver capability. The AIM-120B is an upgraded, reprogrammable variant of the original missile. The AIM-120C incorporates smaller control...

www.airandspaceforces.com

There was a development work re dual pulse. But if memory serves, it only was used in Aim 260 .

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For sure. The charts i shared was the simulation: if AIM-120 were dual pulse.

I edited my post.

İnteresting thing is , delay doesn't increase range too much.

To be honest i didn't know about dual thrust. I googled it.

Then our BVR doesn't need dual pulse since it burns two different type of fuel.

UkroTurk said:

For sure. The charts i shared was the simulation: if AIM-120 were dual pulse.

I edited my post.

İnteresting thing is , delay doesn't increase range too much.

To be honest i didn't know about dual thrust. I googled it.

Dual-thrust rocket motor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Then our BVR doesn't need dual pulse since it burns two different type of fuel.

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Well according to the above magazine excerpt, it has a double pulse engine.
I would have thought like you and said it wouldn’t need a double pulse and dual thrust would have sufficed.
But apparently we have chosen a double pulse engine for our BVR missile.

Yasar_TR said:

Well according to the above magazine excerpt, it has a double pulse engine.
I would have thought like you and said it wouldn’t need a double pulse and dual thrust would have sufficed.
But apparently we have chosen a double pulse engine for our BVR missile.

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The big deal with dual thrust is, if you have thrust vector nozzles like Hisar, then you can make maneuvers you couldn't really do at terminal stages otherwise or against targets that are already close which will require higher angular velocity for turns. That being said, from what I understand especially longer range missiles that have more modern guidance and those with already very high kinetic energy from get go are less dependent on the need to maneuver at terminal stages against air breathing targets. Ballistic missiles and exo atmospheric targets where you have no air to maneuver othwerwise still need stuff like pif paf.

I asked my intelligent friend.

The advantage of dual pulse Beyond Visual Range (BVR) air-to-air missiles over dual thrust air-to-air missiles includes:

Enhanced range and speed: Dual pulse propulsion allows BVR missiles to achieve greater range and speed, enabling them to engage targets at longer distances and with higher velocities.
Improved maneuverability: The dual pulse propulsion system provides BVR missiles with enhanced maneuverability, allowing them to adjust their trajectory and pursue evasive targets more effectively.
Better energy management: Dual pulse propulsion enables BVR missiles to manage their energy more efficiently, optimizing their performance during various phases of flight.

Dual pulse air-to-air missiles are generally faster due to their ability to throttle between high and low speeds, allowing for increased agility and speed when needed.

These advantages make dual pulse BVR air-to-air missiles a preferred choice for engaging targets beyond visual range, offering improved range, speed, maneuverability, and energy management compared to dual thrust missiles.


Then........


The advantages of dual thrust air-to-air missiles over dual pulse air-to-air missiles include:

Simplicity and reliability: Dual thrust propulsion systems are often simpler in design, leading to potentially higher reliability and lower maintenance requirements compared to dual pulse systems.
Cost-effectiveness: Dual thrust propulsion systems may offer a more cost-effective solution for certain applications, as they can be less complex to manufacture and maintain.
Flexible performance: Dual thrust missiles may provide more flexibility in terms of optimizing performance for specific engagement scenarios, depending on the required trade-offs between range, speed, and maneuverability.
These advantages make dual thrust air-to-air missiles suitable for certain operational needs, offering simplicity, reliability, cost-effectiveness, and flexible performance in specific engagement scenarios.


To sum up:

Dual pulse air-to-air missiles offer enhanced range, speed, and maneuverability, while dual thrust missiles provide simplicity, reliability, and potential cost-effectiveness.


@Yasar_TR are we agree with AI guy?

@Nilgiri what about you? India's Astra MK2 is dual pulse .


And what I understood is at low Altitude where the air is thick , the missile need more thrust.

What is max speed of Sungur?

Huelague said:

What is max speed of Sungur?

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2.2+ Mach speed according to below magazine.

Yasar_TR said:

2.2+ Mach speed according to below magazine.

SUNGUR: A Real 4th Generation MANPADS!

www.defenceturkey.com

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As Stinger missile. I heard it is faster than Stinger.

Rear Admiral (LH) Timur YILMAZ "We will soon see that we are firing ATMACA and GEZGİN G/ Ms from our submarines."

Bogeyman said:

Rear Admiral (LH) Timur YILMAZ "We will soon see that we are firing ATMACA and GEZGİN G/ Ms from our submarines."

https://www.defenceturkey.com/files/issues/DT_128_DzKK.pdf

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They will firing Gezgin from submarine first?

Huelague said:

As Stinger missile. I heard it is faster than Stinger.

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According to TurDef article it is faster than Stinger.

quote:

SUNGUR is a new generation MANPADS fitted with IIR guidance. The missile was first fired from a BMC VURAN 4x4 tactical wheeled vehicle’s turreted 2x2 launcher. SUNGUR was later tested in shoulder-fired configuration, shooting down a high-speed target drone.

The missile’s two-stage rocket motor allows for increased terminal performance with a range of up to 8 km.

SUNGUR surpasses the current in-service FIM-92 Stinger missiles in terms of guidance and range. The difference between the two missiles’ guidance is that Stinger missiles lock on the heat while IIR seekers, mostly used on modern air-to-air missiles, track the image of the target in addition to heat, increasing the resistance against countermeasures.

Following the land vehicle integration and shoulder-fired configurations, SUNGUR will also be integrated on Baykar’s Bayraktar TB2, AKINCI and Bayraktar TB3 armed UAVs. AKINCI was displayed with two-tube launchers, but Bayraktar TB3 was displayed with a single-tube launcher during UMEX 2024.

Unquote.

As both missiles‘ specs are similar in given range, altitude and speed values, you are correct to question it.

Stinger missile rotates around its axis to achieve lock on target. It has an effective operational envelope that is actually less than Sungur’s.
Sungur has a much better and more developed seeker head. It has an overall range and altitude advantage over Stinger in terms of number of kill ratios per the number of firings for the same distance and altitude. (In short; Sungur over a given number firings at a distance of 8 km and 4km altitude will have more success than a Stinger).

Also keep in mind that Sungur is ours and we are not very forthcoming when it comes to specification of weapons. Hence, it is totally feasible to expect that true values are somewhat not reflected in the given ones.