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This needs a little winding back. The preliminary stages of the river civilisations were on the Afghan uplands, in the form of villages, then of towns of increasing complexity. These were inspired by the agricultural revolution in Anatolia and were neolithic. As the settlements reached into...

How does it disprove that it was mere speculation? My point was precisely that, that it is a recent concept, and that it was never mentioned in the over three thousand years intervening. Can we point to any examples of this happening anywhere else? This is the sole case of a river mentioned in...

How did you get a proof of the Saraswati's existence? Can you point to a single source, Indian or foreign, identifying it with the Ghaggra before modern times? Can you cope with the question put, that you have gracefully slid around, about why in this single, solitary case, the name vanished for...

It's quite simple. A host of subsidiary deities appeared in post-Vedic times. Who worshipped these, before they were co-opted into the Puranic and Classic theogonies? The same people worshipped Shiva. Instead of saying for a long time, it might help you to listen and comprehend for a short...

Apparently your comprehension skills are lacking. "No, there was no different deity from Rudra" means simply what it states. There was only Rudra. So that single random ascription of the quality of manly beauty does not mean that there was a separate entity, only that in later years, the...

Accurate enough. A good way to understand this issue might be to divide it into little bits. A preliminary apology - much of what is said below is probably already perfectly familiar to you; bear with me for the recapitulation. First, we have the whole raft of steppe cultures that has been...

Actually, when there is a dispute of this type, the person making the assertion has to do the proving. It is your assertion that Rudra in the Rg Veda was the same as Shiva subsequently. So, you see, you have to do the proving. Spoiler alert: you can't. We've been around and around on this already.

LOL. No, there was no different deity from Rudra, so there were no different hymns for him. As you pointed out, Shiva is used here as an attribute; he is not a separate deity.

You seem to be of the opinion that the Vedas were a summary, and what followed was the conscious expansion of those texts. That is precisely correct, and that is precisely what has been explained to you carefully and painfully for so long. There was no identification of Rudra with Shiva...

I have said this before, and I am now merely repeating myself, because you refuse to decipher what is being said to you. Shiva is different from Rudra when Rudra is originally mentioned, because there is nowhere any mention of Shiva in the Rg Veda. It was only later that there was an attempt at...

Stunning.

OMIGOD, where've you been? Consider the following - The river Haraothi, flowing into the Helmand, that transliterates directly in the shift from Iranian sibilant suppressed language (Hindu for Sindhu, Ahura for Asura); that qualifies for the foaming river in the earlier portions of the Rg Veda...

Better, champ, not OK. I can't walk about for more than a few minutes, about fifteen or twenty minutes on a good day.

That is a very balanced summary. I didn't mention Coimbatore because it is such an unholy mess, one that I know was deliberately created as a safe haven by extremists. Now, however, there is a back-lash (you obviously know all this) and the Hindi-speaking set have started throwing their weight...

Have a heart. I've been unwell. Not as bad, or as life-threatening as others, but it wasn't good. Now I'm here for good. May not post as much as on PDF, but that's because of health reasons.

More tomorrow. My doctors are unhappy with my keeping long hours.

As far as many names are concerned, those that are listed in the Rg Veda are clearly different names for the same deity. it is different when the identification is made in a different place, in a different context. As you have pointed out, the samudra manthan was not Vedic, so the identification...

A very interesting post, much of which I agree with. More later. I tire easily, and tend to drop where I am. Much of this has been reported by Parpola in a paper. Let me try and dig it out, although my papers are in a shambles.

What a fascinating point of view! Without pretending to offer a complete answer, here are a few random thoughts. In general, the division across India is that 40% are upper caste Hindus, 20% are Dalit, 17% (or a little more) are Muslims, and the balance, about 23%, are constituted of tribal...

Oh, I've been through the mill, but recovering very slowly. We need to talk. Perhaps tomorrow? Day after?