TR Casual Discussion Çay Bahçesi

[Corvus]

That is bs,the most fundamental thing is the love for your country no matter the religions.

People stop caring for their home country after a generation, unless they have some kind of a mystical&emotional reason to love it. Loving your grandparents' birthplace doesn't make any sense from a secular, materalist, rationalist perspective.

Islam creates a barrier between Muslims and the others. It prevents assimilation. That's why German Turks still speak Turkish today while American Turks lose it in a generation. They just blend in local people and disappear. Nothing Turkish remains.

I have seen this so many times.

Did we rely on religion when we fought for our independence or for our honour pride our country?

Yes, we relied almost only on religion during our national struggle. I can give you so many examples from Atatürk's speeches, memoirs of our veterans, photos from the battlefields, fetvas and preaches from our Müftüs.

Check Mustafa Kemal's first speech in the National Assembly. Search "islam" and you will find how much Atatürk relied on religion to justify and gather support:

ATATÜRK

"Bu sınır sadece askeri gerekçelerle çizilmiş bir sınır değildir, milli sınırdır. Fakat bu sınır içinde islâm ögesine sahip yalnız bir milletin olduğu düşünülmesin. Bu sınır içinde Türk vardır, Çerkez vardır ve diğer islâm öğeleri vardır. işte bu sınır karışık bir halde yaşayan, bütün amacını tam anlamı ile birleştirmiş olan kardeş unsurların milli sınırıdır. (Hepsi islâmdır, kardeştir sesleri) ... Fazla olarak da bu vatan hududu içinde yaşayan islâm unsurlarının her birinin kendine özgü olan yörelerine, geleneklerine, ırkına özel olan ayrıcalıkları bütün samimiyeti ile ve karşılıklı olarak kabul etmiş ve onaylanmıştı."

"Meclisimizde oluşan ve beliren milli kudretimiz, Hilâfet makamı ve saltanatı yabancı baskısından kurtaracak ve Osmanlı devletini dağılma ve tutsaklıktan kurtarma önlemleri alacaktır. Tam bağımsızlığa sahip, hilâfet makamına vicdani bağlılığı ile övünen, islâm dünyası içinde yaşama anlayışını kendinde gören bir milletin tutsak olamayacağı inancıyla, davranışlarımızı adım adım izleyen bütün medeni dünya ve insanlık sizlere yardımcı olacaktır. (Sıcak alkışlar)"

Gulf Arabs are all muslims,do they fight for their religion or anything but money?

Osama Bin Laden was a really rich Gulf Arab yet he established a religious organization&died for it.

Iranians are divided internally(religious,non religious) but when it comes to outsiders they all fight together,why?

That's not true. Secular Iranians were celebrating while US&Israel was bombing Iran, killing 160 school girls with a single bomb. I remember dancing Persian onlyfans prostitutes on twitter that day.

Pakistan has sunnis and shias always fighting each other but when war with India they all fight together because they love their country.

Shia Pakistanis would possibly side with Iran if they engage in a war. That's the main reason for them to keep their involvement limited in Yemen.

Bangladesh fought for its independence against a country with the same religion,why?

Cemaat-i Islami, current main opposition in Bangladesh and former coalition partner defended the unity of Pakistan and rejected independence.

You are so focused on religion that you fail to see reality.

Since every argument of yours is falsified, people can see who is more based on reality.

Last but not least:

Hakkıdır Hakk'a tapan milletimin istiklal!

 

[myNameJeff-17]

Because religion is the most fundamental thing to keep a separate identity.

I lived in the USA, secular migrants from Muslim countries lose their ethnic/national/cultural identity in a generation. Rejection of faith often brings rejection (or indifference) of the identity.

Most Persian youth in America can't even speak Farsi today and they are twerking in the streets while their country is being bombed by foreigners. The most degenerate and despicable kind of all.

IDK man, I know plenty agnostic Turks here that clearly identify as Turks.

Mileage may vary, could depend on where you are.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Because religion is the most fundamental thing to keep a separate identity.

Then that perfectly explains why so many non-Arab races write, dress, speak and even think like Arabs because they're Muslim. I guess once they left their original religion they lost their separate identity.


You just gave us all another reason to double down on Tengrism, because the fact is that it is intertwined in the indentity of Turks in a way which no other religion possibly could.

 

[TR_123456]

"Bu sınır sadece askeri gerekçelerle çizilmiş bir sınır değildir, milli sınırdır. Fakat bu sınır içinde islâm ögesine sahip yalnız bir milletin olduğu düşünülmesin. Bu sınır içinde Türk vardır, Çerkez vardır ve diğer islâm öğeleri vardır. işte bu sınır karışık bir halde yaşayan, bütün amacını tam anlamı ile birleştirmiş olan kardeş unsurların milli sınırıdır. (Hepsi islâmdır, kardeştir sesleri) ... Fazla olarak da bu vatan hududu içinde yaşayan islâm unsurlarının her birinin kendine özgü olan yörelerine, geleneklerine, ırkına özel olan ayrıcalıkları bütün samimiyeti ile ve karşılıklı olarak kabul etmiş ve onaylanmıştı."

"Meclisimizde oluşan ve beliren milli kudretimiz, Hilâfet makamı ve saltanatı yabancı baskısından kurtaracak ve Osmanlı devletini dağılma ve tutsaklıktan kurtarma önlemleri alacaktır. Tam bağımsızlığa sahip, hilâfet makamına vicdani bağlılığı ile övünen, islâm dünyası içinde yaşama anlayışını kendinde gören bir milletin tutsak olamayacağı inancıyla, davranışlarımızı adım adım izleyen bütün medeni dünya ve insanlık sizlere yardımcı olacaktır. (Sıcak alkışlar)"

You failed to grasp the meaning,take a loook at how he started.
He said, milli sinirdir first then he talked about religion and various ethinicities.
Dont twist his words into something it is not.
First milli then the rest.

"Meclisimizde oluşan ve beliren milli kudretimiz, Hilâfet makamı ve saltanatı yabancı baskısından kurtaracak ve Osmanlı devletini dağılma ve tutsaklıktan kurtarma önlemleri alacaktır. Tam bağımsızlığa sahip, hilâfet makamına vicdani bağlılığı ile övünen, islâm dünyası içinde yaşama anlayışını kendinde gören bir milletin tutsak olamayacağı inancıyla, davranışlarımızı adım adım izleyen bütün medeni dünya ve insanlık sizlere yardımcı olacaktır. (Sıcak alkışlar)"

Did you even understand what he meant here?

Cemaat-i Islami, current main opposition in Bangladesh and former coalition partner defended the unity of Pakistan and rejected independence.

Yes,traitors to their people.
How many were killed in the name of religion before independence and why independence from Pakistan?
Arent they all muslims?

Since every argument of yours is falsified, people can see who is more based on reality.

Keep telling that to yourself.
You cant handle the fact that religion has nothing to do with it.

 

[Iskander]

Don't you think Aliyev government is damaging our relationship on purpose?

I wrote the chronology of the events and negative moves coming our from Azerbaijan in my previous message here. I don't have an explanation other than this whole thing being a calculated move by Aliyev. I would like to hear your -and other Azerbaijanis'- opinion on the matter.

To understand how this misunderstanding—and the subsequent, unacceptable mutual attacks—arose, one must look back to the origins and identify the root cause. It is difficult to imagine that Aliyev would have made such an unexpected statement—which some forum participants cite as the primary cause—without any provocation. In all likelihood, this was not the cause, but rather a consequence. I did not follow the unfolding events in real time, but once the scandal had fully erupted, I decided to look into the situation. While I cannot reconstruct the exact chronology, I recall that shortly before this, Erdoğan had spoken at the UN, defending the right to wear the hijab.
On September 21, a law regarding school uniforms for girls was adopted in our country. Could it be that the very next day, September 22, Erdoğan decided to lecture us from such a prominent international platform? It is simply unfathomable—I find it almost impossible to believe...
A few years ago, we discussed some concerning incidents here—for instance, large-scale protests by young people outside our consulate in Istanbul. At that time, the issue was not the hijab, but the Palestinian question. For us in Azerbaijan, it is completely incomprehensible how the Palestinian issue could cast a shadow over our bilateral relations.
At least six such protests took place outside our consulate, involving young people—apparently, radicalized, devout individuals—the very same people who advocate for the wearing of the hijab and support the Palestinian cause. Yet, not a single demonstration was held in support of our friendly bilateral relations. It reached a point where your police had to step in to ensure the security of our diplomatic mission. Our media have also recalled other, equally provocative statements by Turkish politicians—specifically, remarks made by some of your parliamentarians, as well as a post on Twitter by one of Erdoğan’s key advisors.
In two days, the summit of the Organization of Turkic States (OTS) will take place; Aliyev has, of course, been invited. It remains unclear from the official response whether he has agreed to attend, so the suspense continues. That said, it is hard for me to imagine that Aliyev would decline to travel to Turkey for the summit. It seems that, for the moment, things have settled down, and once the high-level meeting takes place, these recent difficulties will almost certainly be forgotten. Let us hope for the best.

 

[Corvus]

You just gave us all another reason to double down on Tengrism, because the fact is that it is intertwined in the indentity of Turks in a way which no other religion possibly could.

What are the characteristics of this identity? What are the sources? What is the history behind it? There was never an established faith in the name of "tengrism". No Turk in the history ever called himself a "tengrist". Tengri literally means God/Allah. What is Godism or Allahism?

Turks do not need to reconstruct a fragmented pre-Islamic nomadic-pagan belief system to prove their Turkishness. If your identity requires you to reject a religion embraced by Turkic peoples for over a millennium, perhaps it is your definition of Turkish identity that lacks historical&cultural depth.

 

[Corvus]

You failed to grasp the meaning,take a loook at how he started.
He said, milli sinirdir first then he talked about religion and various ethinicities.
Dont twist his words into something it is not.
First milli then the rest.

"Fakat bu sınır içinde islâm ögesine sahip yalnız bir milletin olduğu düşünülmesin. Bu sınır içinde Türk vardır, Çerkez vardır ve diğer islâm öğeleri vardır. işte bu sınır karışık bir halde yaşayan, bütün amacını tam anlamı ile birleştirmiş olan kardeş unsurların milli sınırıdır. (Hepsi islâmdır, kardeştir sesleri)"

Yes,traitors to their people.
How many were killed in the name of religion before independence and why independence from Pakistan?
Arent they all muslims?

Would you call Cypriot Turks "traitors" if they wanted to remain unified with Turkey after WW1?

Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians were actually one people in Hindustan. They learnt nationalism from the British, killed each other and divided their country so it would be easier for the British to control them. The Muslims rejected these ideas and defended unity. Unfortunately, British propaganda and nationalists won. So many people died in the name of nationalism.

Keep telling that to yourself.
You cant handle the fact that religion has nothing to do with it.

Do you want further proof from our national struggle about how Islam was the main motivation for our nation? It seems like it wasn't enough. I can spoil this place with hundreds of photos and documents.

Here are some ghazis that have "nothing to do with religion".

 

[Corvus]

On September 21, a law regarding school uniforms for girls was adopted in our country. Could it be that the very next day, September 22, Erdoğan decided to lecture us from such a prominent international platform? It is simply unfathomable—I find it almost impossible to believe...

The law wasn't still being applied on September. It came into force on early October and became the news in Türkiye.

In general, Erdoğan likes to use this rhetoric in international platforms to emphasis islamophobia, to be a "defender of islam" and to show the hypocrisy of the West that likes to talk about freedom all the time. I don't think he meant Azerbaijan in his speech but who knows.

A few years ago, we discussed some concerning incidents here—for instance, large-scale protests by young people outside our consulate in Istanbul. At that time, the issue was not the hijab, but the Palestinian question. For us in Azerbaijan, it is completely incomprehensible how the Palestinian issue could cast a shadow over our bilateral relations.
At least six such protests took place outside our consulate, involving young people—apparently, radicalized, devout individuals—the very same people who advocate for the wearing of the hijab and support the Palestinian cause. Yet, not a single demonstration was held in support of our friendly bilateral relations. It reached a point where your police had to step in to ensure the security of our diplomatic mission. Our media have also recalled other, equally provocative statements by Turkish politicians—specifically, remarks made by some of your parliamentarians, as well as a post on Twitter by one of Erdoğan’s key advisors.

Erdoğan's grip on Turkish society and on his voter base is not as strong as people think it is. He would get a huge backlash from his own people if he bans pro-Palestine demonstrations or protests. He needs these people siding with him. Similar thing goes for the hijab issue. Both Palestine and hijab are the core issues of Muslim identity in Türkiye today. He can't openly tell people to shut up about it.

Iran knows that and they use it to influence Erdoğan and Turkish public opinion in their favor.

My question is, didn't Aliyev know that he would get a reaction from conservative Turks with this hijab ban? Or did he do it specifically to get reaction?

In two days, the summit of the Organization of Turkic States (OTS) will take place; Aliyev has, of course, been invited. It remains unclear from the official response whether he has agreed to attend, so the suspense continues. That said, it is hard for me to imagine that Aliyev would decline to travel to Turkey for the summit. It seems that, for the moment, things have settled down, and once the high-level meeting takes place, these recent difficulties will almost certainly be forgotten. Let us hope for the best.

I'm hoping for that too. But it has become VERY disappointing for me to figure out that we can't rely on Azerbaijan when it comes to Israel.

I read many messages from Azerbaijanis on social media or in here. Most of them refrain from taking sides between Türkiye and Israel as if we are on the same value for Azerbaijan. It has been an awakening shock for me -and for many Turks- to say the least.

 

[TR_123456]

Would you call Cypriot Turks "traitors" if they wanted to remain unified with Turkey after WW1?

Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians were actually one people in Hindustan. They learnt nationalism from the British, killed each other and divided their country so it would be easier for the British to control them. The Muslims rejected these ideas and defended unity. Unfortunately, British propaganda and nationalists won. So many people died in the name of nationalism.

So,what has this got to do with a religion?
You contratict yourself again.
One ''people'' but different religions,right???
You are a strange person.
Kendi tuzagina düstün,farkina vardinmi?

 

[Corvus]

So,what has this got to do with a religion?

Religion, or "islamism" wanted to keep Pakistan united with Bangladesh. Nationalism won, they fought a horrible war, killed each other and each become weaker instead of being stronger together.

Before all that, Muslims of India gathered and sent big amount of financial aid to Türkiye during our national struggle because we were the center of caliphate.

British came, they divided the country, gave the biggest part to the hindus, thus creating a non-muslim political entity. Then they divided Muslims into two to further weaken them, using nationalism.

Dissolution of Ottoman Empire and the case of Cyprus is an example. Luckily, Cypriot Turks are not a huge group that could fight us and be "our Bangladesh".

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

What are the characteristics of this identity? What are the sources? What is the history behind it? There was never an established faith in the name of "tengrism". No Turk in the history ever called himself a "tengrist". Tengri literally means God/Allah. What is Godism or Allahism?

Turks do not need to reconstruct a fragmented pre-Islamic nomadic-pagan belief system to prove their Turkishness. If your identity requires you to reject a religion embraced by Turkic peoples for over a millennium, perhaps it is your definition of Turkish identity that lacks historical&cultural depth.

Perhaps you need to do some more research.

Ancient Turks had a belief system that was generally passed on by shamans (kams) and elders for millennia, in fact that's how what we call Tengrism has survived in small pockets to this day. In modern times this belief system was named Tengrism based on Tengri, the "all encompassing" god.

To understand Tengrism, you need to breakdown what was actually believed and practiced. I'll give you a very basic overview.

1. Animism - The belief that all objects can house spirits. This can extend to things like creeks, mountains and trees.
2. Shamanism (Kam in Turkic) - By using an assortment of tools, including a specially tuned animal skin drum (which acted as a portal), shamans could enter other realms to seek knowledge and alter reality. You can research about their historic significance and how in modern times intelligence agencies have attempted to mimic their trances for "remote viewing". This is something unique to Turkic, Mongolic and Tungustic Shamans, don't confuse the wide use of that word with more primitive practices amongst other peoples across the world.
3. Ancestor Worship and the three souls - Reverence for your ancestors is of utmost importance. At the end of the day we're all here because of the struggles and sacrifices our ancestors made, therefore to simply forget all of that or even worse, disrespect them, would be a terrible mistake. In Tengrism, ancestors are not only respected, but they can be reached out to by shamans for guidance. Similarly, descendants are seen as being important too, as it's believed that one of your three souls will reincarnate in one of your future descendants. One soul dies with the person, whilst the other resides in an object or in nature.

Anyway, I can get more into this some other time

 

[TR_123456]

Religion, or "islamism" wanted to keep Pakistan united with Bangladesh. Nationalism won, they fought a horrible war, killed each other and each become weaker instead of being stronger together.

Before all that, Muslims of India gathered and sent big amount of financial aid to Türkiye during our national struggle because we were the center of caliphate.

British came, they divided the country, gave the biggest part to the hindus, thus creating a non-muslim political entity. Then they divided Muslims into two to further weaken them, using nationalism.

Dissolution of Ottoman Empire and the case of Cyprus is an example. Luckily, Cypriot Turks are not a huge group that could fight us and be "our Bangladesh".

So,this proves again that ''islamism'' doesnt work there is no ummah and there never will be any.
Example is Gaza,the Israelis killed 100.000 but your muslim brother didnt do shit.
Only Iran which is not aligned to your muslim ummah did something.
Dont come with the bs,''together we are strong bla bla'',there is no together.
And it again proves my point,religion means nothing to most people.

 

[Corvus]

So,this proves again that ''islamism'' doesnt work there is no ummah and there never will be any.
Example is Gaza,the Israelis killed 100.000 but your muslim brother didnt do shit.
Only Iran which is not aligned to your muslim ummah did something.
Dont come with the bs,''together we are strong bla bla'',there is no together.
And it again proves my point,religion means nothing to most people.

There is ummah for those who believe in it. Not for you.

Same goes for all other ideologies. There are multiple wars between nations or even within nations. Does that mean nationalism doesn't work and there are no nations? Should we give up on nation state because of bad examples?

 

[TR_123456]

There is ummah for those who believe in it. Not for you.

Same goes for all other ideologies. There are multiple wars between nations or even within nations. Does that mean nationalism doesn't work and there are no nations? Should we give up on nation state because of bad examples?

Run out of excuses?
See,this happens when you push to far.
You get put in your place which means this conversation has ended,there is nothing more to add.
Good luck with your ummah thingy.