TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Nutuk]

The 23bln is a max value and it is good for us.

example: it gives ok for 900 AIM-120 missiles. Do we order 900 missiles at once? No we probably will order in batches of 150, but 900 have already been OK'd so for the future whether we buy them or not it already passed the congress approval

I already repeated many times, IMHO we should not even think about buying 40 new F16's, take the upgrade kits and upgrade our F16's in high tempo. Stop fussing around.

 

[Huelague]

Wow such a brilliant policy. First got kicked out of f35 program and buy 23 billion dollars worth of us made weaponry. Make Greece f35 owner. This was impossible with previous governments (aka “old Turkey “)
And if we are buying this much AA and AG ammunitions. Where will we use Goktug, Atmaca blah blah ?

Be cool. Sooner or later, all NATO members will have F-35 fighter jets, by USA.

 

[Huelague]

TÜRKIYE – F-16 AIRCRAFT ACQUISITION AND MODERNIZATION​

The Republic of Türkiye has requested to buy 40 new F-16 aircraft and to modernize 79 existing F-16 aircraft to V-Configuration.

The request includes:

• thirty-two (32) F-16 C Block 70 aircraft; eight (8) F-16 D Block 70 aircraft;
• forty-eight (48) F110-GE-129D engines (40 installed, 8 spares);
• one hundred forty-nine (149) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG) (40 installed, 10 spares, 99 for modernization program (79 installed, 20 spares));
• one hundred forty-nine (149) AN/APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radars (SABR) (40 installed, 10 spares, 99 for modernization program (79 installed, 20 spares));
• one hundred sixty-nine (169) Modular Mission Computers (MMC) 7000AHC (or available mission computer) (40 installed, 10 spares, 119 for modernization program (79 installed, 40 spares));
• one hundred fifty nine (159) Embedded Global Positioning System (GPS) Inertial Navigation Systems (INS) (EGI) with Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM) or M-Code capability and Precise Positioning Service (PPS) (40 installed, 8 spares, 111 for modernization program (79 installed, 32 spares));
• one hundred sixty-eight (168) Integrated Viper Electronic Warfare Suite (IVEWS) or equivalent Electronic Warfare (EW) systems (40 installed, 10 spares, 118 for modernization program (79 installed, 39 spares));
• eight hundred fifty-eight (858) LAU-129 guided missile launchers;
• forty-four (44) M61 Vulcan cannons (40 installed, 4 spares);
• sixteen (16) AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP);
• one hundred fifty-one (151) Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Joint Tactical Radio Systems (MIDS-JTRS) (40 installed and 4 ground terminals, 8 spares, and 99 for modernization program (79 installed and 4 ground terminals, 16 spares));
• nine hundred fifty-two (952) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-8 or equivalent missiles;
• ninety six (96) AMRAAM guidance sections;
• eight hundred sixty-four (864) GBU-39/B Small Diameter Bombs Increment 1 (SDB-1);
• two (2) GBU-39(T-1)/B SDB-1 guided test vehicles;
• two (2) GBU-39(T-1)/B SDB-1 practice bombs;
• ninety-six (96) AGM-88B High-Speed Anti-Radiation Missiles (HARM);
• ninety-six (96) AGM-88E Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missiles (AARGM);
• ten (10) AARGM Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM);
• eleven (11) AARGM control sections;
• twelve (12) AARGM guidance sections;
• four hundred one (401) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder missiles;
• twelve (12) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder Captive Air Training Missiles (CATMs);
• forty (40) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder tactical guidance units;
• twelve (12) AIM-9X Block II Sidewinder CATM guidance units;
• twelve (12) MK82 Inert Filled general purpose bombs;
• eight hundred fifty (850) Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) KMU-556 tail kits for GBU-31;
• two hundred (200) JDAM KMU-557 tail kits for GBU-31v3;
• three hundred eighty-four (384) JDAM KMU-559 tail kits for GBU-32;
• three (3) JDAM KMU-572 tail kits for GBU-38 or Laser JDAM GBU-54;
• one thousand fifty (1,050) FMU-152 fuzes. Also included are AMRAAM CATMs;
• AIM-9X Sidewinder training missiles and Active Optical Target Detectors (AOTD);
• HARM control sections, rocket motors, and warhead spares;
• FMU-139 Joint Programmable Fuzes;
• DSU-38 Laser Guidance Sets for GBU-54;
• missile containers;
• AN/ARC-238 radios;
• AN/APX-127 or equivalent Advanced Identification Friend or Foe (AIFF) Combined Interrogator Transponders (CIT) with mode 5;
• Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) II or Scorpion Hybrid Optical-based Inertial Tracker (HObIT) helmet mounted displays;
• Infrared Search and Track (IRST) pods;
• AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Systems (CMDS);
• KY-58 and KIV-78 cryptographic devices;
• Simple Key Loaders (SKLs);
• additional secure communications, precision navigation, and cryptographic equipment;
• Flight Mission Planning Systems (FMPS);
• Remote Operated Video Enhanced Receivers (ROVER) 6i/6Sis;
• Tactical Network ROVER kits, and STINGER Multi Bi-Directional (MBI) antennas;
• SNIPER pod pylons;
• impulse cartridges, chaff, flares, and ammunition; bomb components and Common Munitions Built-in-Test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE);
• Rackmount Improved Avionics Intermediate Shop (RIAIS);
• Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD);
• Triple Missile Launcher Adapters (TMLA);
• aircraft, avionics, and weapons integration, test support, and equipment; major modernization upgrade kits for F-16 Block 40 and Block 50+ aircraft and Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) modifications;
• aircraft and engine repair and refurbishment after maintenance;
• engine and aircraft spare and repair parts, consumables, and accessories and repair and return support;
• aircraft, engine, ground, and pilot support equipment;
• Classified/Unclassified Computer Program Identification Number (CPIN) systems;
• electronic warfare database support;
• pylons, launcher adaptors, weapon interfaces, bomb and ejection racks, conformal fuel tanks, and travel pods;
• precision measurement equipment laboratory and calibration support;
• Classified/Unclassified software and software support;
• Classified/Unclassified publications, manuals, and technical documentation;
• maps and mapping data;
• facilities and construction support;
• simulators and training devices;
• personnel training and training equipment;
• U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, studies and surveys;
• and other related elements of logistical and program support.

Türkiye – F-16 Aircraft Acquisition and Modernization | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Have you noticed. All the weapons and systems, they sell us. We can make on our own. They try to stop our defence industry development and production.

 

[Sanchez]

They try to stop

They aren't. We asked for these, and likely few others they didn't want to sell us so they're not in here.

They try to stop our defence industry development and production.

When they really want to fuck with our development, they have much bigger options that would stop most of our development projects on its tracks. Thankfully they haven't yet done most of those.

I fear people are not really getting this as it is happening. We don't have Kaan, Hürjet, or Özgür without US. They hold all the cards. They did so from the beginning. We will take this shit deal, and be very happy with it so that we can be really free 20 years later, not today. And in the meanwhile we will have to come up with ways to survive the next 20 years being surrounded by hounds on all sides.

Really hoping EF2000 purchase is also on the horizon.

 

[Spitfire9]

Have you noticed. All the weapons and systems, they sell us. We can make on our own. They try to stop our defence industry development and production.

If you can make your own weapons, why buy them? The US, UK, France, Germany, Italy et al can make a lot of weapons but import many weapons they could make themselves.

The US has invested hundreds of billions of US dollars in R&D (perhaps many trillions) to become supreme in weapons development. I do not think that the US wants to share that with Turkiye to help it develop its weapons industry (my opinion).

You say that the US is trying to stop Turkish defence industry development and production. How is the US doing that?

 

[Spitfire9]

Really hoping EF2000 purchase is also on the horizon.

In my opinion buying EF2000 would be wise - if President Erdogan has not unwisely made that a very unlikely possibility.

 

[Oublious]

Have you noticed. All the weapons and systems, they sell us. We can make on our own. They try to stop our defence industry development and production.

Not exactly, you can not put your own weapons like that. They are changing missioncomputer you will need to rewrite your software and calibration and that will take time. Untill that time what will your VIPERS use?

 

[Oublious]

In my opinion buying EF2000 would be wise - if President Erdogan has not unwisely made that a very unlikely possibility.

talk with the germanzzzz.

 

[TheInsider]

Hüseyin Fazla calculated the cost of the quoted items in the F-16 package. It seems total cost should be no higher than 7 billion. DSMC notice should be no higher than 15 billion something doesn't add up.

40 adet F-16 40x63 milyon USD = 2 milyar 520 milyon USD​

79 adet F-16 SLEP kiti 79x63/4 (15,75 milyon USD) = 1 milyar 244,25 milyon USD​

48 adet F110-GE-129D motoru 48x4 milyon USD = 192 milyon USD​

149 adet AESA radarı 149x5 milyon USD = 745 milyon USD​

168 adet EH paketi 168x3 milyon USD = 504 milyon USD​

952 adet AMRAAM C-8 952x1 milyon USD = 952 milyon USD​

96 adet AMRAAM güdüm kiti 96x250 bin USD= 24 milyon USD​

864 adet GBU-39 864x40 bin USD = 34,56 milyon USD​

96 adet AGM-88B HARM 96x284 bin USD = 27,264 milyon USD​

96 adet AGM-88E AARGM 96x870 bin USD = 83,520 milyon USD​

401 adet AIM-9X Blok II 401x381 bin USD = 152,781 milyon USD​

12 adet AIM-9X CATM 12x209 bin USD = 2,508 milyon USD​

1434 adet JDAM kiti 1434x36 bin USD = 51,624 milyon USD​

1.050 adet FMU-152 tapa 1050x2.300 USD = 2,415 milyon USD​

Modernizasyon fabrika tool’ları Tahmini 150 milyon USD​

​

Toplam Öngörülen Maliyet 6 milyar 687 milyon USD​

 

[boredaf]

Hüseyin Fazla calculated the cost of the quoted items in the F-16 package. It seems total cost should be no higher than 7 billion. DSMC notice should be no higher than 15 billion something doesn't add up.

Did he post where he got the prices? I haven't checked but I do know that not all prices are in the public domain and getting them from other purchases isn't really reliable as US (and every other country that sells weapons including us) adjust their prices from country to country, so, we would likely get a steeper price.

For example, Germany bought 969 AMRAAM C-8 and training and support stuff for those for 2.9 billion dollars, almost 3 times the amount mentioned there.

 

[godel44]

In my opinion buying EF2000 would be wise - if President Erdogan has not unwisely made that a very unlikely possibility.

Actually, Germany selling Eurofighters just got a lot more likely now that Americans are selling. There was no logical reason for denying the sale anyway. But it might be a bit overkill for us as the Viper/Ozgur numbers already present quite a sizeable investment in the 4th gen planes.

 

[MeACuLpA]

I am pretty sure everyone would die to see Murad vs Captor-e ecrs mk2 and SABR

 

[wolveray1]

Turkiye should buy more upgrade kits and cancel buying new F16's, their delivery time is just not worth it. Buy maybe some AA missiles and keep the cost at minimum

Tutkey should just cancel it and spend more on local ozgur f16 upgrading program instead of begging it.
Tbh,its embarassing or just bought from China.
At least you are not looking like beggars....
If you cancel it at least people will look at Turkey with some respect...

 

[wolveray1]

Currently US is treating Turkey like those Arab nations.
They sell F35 and the best military equipment to Israel while those Arabs are receiving 2nd or 3rd grade weapons and yet all these Arab leaders keep kissing US ass..

 

[GoatsMilk]

Currently US is treating Turkey like those Arab nations.
They sell F35 and the best military equipment to Israel while those Arabs are receiving 2nd or 3rd grade weapons

If we don't defend our regional interests we would get F35 yesterday. Its not a simple as you think it is. We are in a geography where we have to compete with american, european, russian and isreali instigations.

BTW both Russia and the USA threatened war against us in the last 5 years alone. But we still pursued our interests. we still won conflicts.

Its not easy geography, imagine your country is the other side of the world to europe and for the last 500 years it was mostly occupied by european powers. Where as the Turks came from one side of Asia and destroyed the roman empire and for a thousand years conquered european lands.

So if they can come to other side of the world and conquer you, can you imagine how difficult it has been for Turkey to survive? To survive in a land that were not even native to?

 

[uçuyorum]

If we don't defend our regional interests we would get F35 yesterday. Its not a simple as you think it is. We are in a geography where we have to compete with american, european, russian and isreali instigations.

BTW both Russia and the USA threatened war against us in the last 5 years alone. But we still pursued our interests. we still won conflicts.

Its not easy geography, imagine your country is the other side of the world to europe and for the last 500 years it was mostly occupied by european powers. Where as the Turks came from one side of Asia and destroyed the roman empire and for a thousand years conquered european lands.

So if they can come to other side of the world and conquer you, can you imagine how difficult it has been for Turkey to survive? To survive in a land that were not even native to?

If we handled our diplomacy well we could defend our interests and have the planes too without giving US a clean excuse to boot us.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Hüseyin Fazla calculated the cost of the quoted items in the F-16 package. It seems total cost should be no higher than 7 billion. DSMC notice should be no higher than 15 billion something doesn't add up.

There seems to be something wrong in this calculation.
For starters, the AMRAAM C8 is nearly 3million dollars a piece. Germany bought 969 of these for 2.9 billion dollars.

Germany – AIM-120C-8 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Greek F16 V70 upgrade kits costing them 2.4 billion dollars for 123 sets. That makes it nearly 20 million dollars a piece.

Government of Greece – Upgrade of F-16 Aircraft to F-16 Block V Configuration | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Aim 9X block 2 price is wrong too. In 2012 we bought 117 of these and paid 140 million dollars. Dollar inflation corrected that makes 190 million today. Hence 1.6 million a piece.

Turkey – AIM-9X-2 SIDEWINDER Missiles | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

So taking Wikipedia prices and calculating a final price would give the wrong image.

Nevertheless , even with the correct “inflated” prices the total cost wouldn’t tally. So there must be other reasons that are not clear to us at the moment. Hopefully it will become clear in the days to come.

But as per @Cabatli_TR ’s posts on the matter, this is not the quantity of equipment we will definitely buy and the amount we will pay. This is the total we “could“ buy.
We need to think, in a way, that we are given a 23 billion dollar credit line to use. How much of it we use is up to us.

 

[boredaf]

Nevertheless , even with the correct “inflated” prices the total cost wouldn’t tally. So there must be other reasons that are not clear to us at the moment. Hopefully it will become clear in the days to come.

As I said before, using numbers from other purchases, while better than using prices from Wikipedia or whatever, is still not really accurate as every country sells weapons at different costs depending on the country, we do this as well.

For example, you said Greece paid about 20 million a piece for F-16 upgrade kit, but on the other hand, US paid around 10 million for them. Morocco on the other hand paid 985 million dollars to upgrade 23 F-16s. So, just in 3 examples, we are talking about anywhere between 10 to 40 million dollars.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I am pretty sure everyone would die to see Murad vs Captor-e ecrs mk2 and SABR

Murad is an unknown entity. And it should stay as one to keep its edge. Being built on GaN based T/R module architecture, logically, it should be superior to the SABR as the latter is built as a compromise unit to fit in to F16 specifically; in terms of size and power consumption, avionics match etc.
Captor-e ECRS-2 radar is a hybrid radar (using both GaAs and GaN T/R modules) and is claimed to become the most powerful GaN based radar in use.
If we could manage to purchase a couple of squadrons of Typhoons with the ECRS-2 fitted, it would prove most useful. These planes are most likely the most capable 4.5 generation planes around at the moment.

 

[boredaf]

In fact, here is a list of everything Morocco got for 4.8 billion in 2019:

The Government of Morocco has requested to buy:
-- twenty-five (25) F-16C/D Block 72 aircraft;
-- twenty-nine (29) engines (Pratt & Whitney F100-229) (includes 4 spares);
-- twenty-six (26) APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars (includes 1 spare);
-- twenty-six (26) Modular Mission Computers (includes 1 spare);
-- twenty-six (26) Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution Systems – JTRS (MIDS-JTRS) with TACAN and ESHI Terminals (includes 1 spare);
-- twenty-six (26) LN260 Embedded Global Navigation Systems (EGI) (includes 1 spare);
-- forty (40) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) (includes 5 spares);
-- twenty-six (26) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG) (includes 1 spare);
-- thirty (30) M61 Al Vulcan 20mm Guns (includes 5 spares);
-- fifty (50) LAU-129 Multi-Purpose Launchers;
-- forty (40) AIM-120C-7 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
-- forty (40) AIM-120C-7 Guidance Sections;
-- three (3) GBU-38/54 JDAM Tail Kits;
-- fifty (50) MXU-650 Air Foil Group, GBU-49;
-- fifty (50) MAU-210 Enhanced Computer Control Group (CCG), GBU-49,-50;
-- thirty-six (36) FMU-139 D/B Fuzes;
-- six (6) FMU-139 D/B (D-l) Inert Fuzes;
-- two (2) GBU-39 (T-l) GTVs;
-- sixty (60) GBU-39/B Small Diameter Bombs (SDB I);
-- ten (10) MAU-169L/B Computer Control Group, GBU-10, -12, -16;
-- ten (10) MXU-650C/B Air Foil Group, GBU-12;
-- twelve (12) MK82 Bombs, Filled Inert;
-- four (4) BLU-109 Practice Bombs;
-- ten (10) MAU-169 CCG (D-2); and
-- twenty-six (26) AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Pods.

Also included are:
-- twenty-six (26) AN/ALQ-213 EW Management Systems;
-- twenty-six (26) Advanced Identification Friend/Foe;
-- Secure Communications, Cryptographic Precision Navigation Equipment;
-- one (1) Joint Mission Planning System;
-- twenty-six (26) AN/ALQ-211 AIDEWS;
-- six (6) DB-110 Advanced Reconnaissance Systems;
-- communications equipment; spares and repair parts; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; support and test equipment, simulators; integration and test; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

The estimated cost is $3.787 billion. And on top of these purchases were the upgrade kits for 985 million dollars.