TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[No Name]

Did you saw US-Chinese design for their 6th gen fighter?
Or do you know what this coating is? View attachment 53291
There are technologies being developed which is beyond the current 5th gen definition.

So, this would be a wrong conclusion to say, all 6th gen fighters are just marketed 5th gen fighter With a fancy classification.

By the time Turkey would develop those technologies, instead of just shoving all of them into TFX, I believe Tusas will come up with a new generation platform with a new design. Sure, TFX will get some great upgrades, But definitely it wouldn’t make it on per with NGAD.

Of course, I haven't seen them, they are top-secret projects, but I have seen some concept art, but it is unclear if the actual fighter would resemble the concept art. If the art and statements are anything to go by, it seems that already existing 5th gen technology has matured in those planes, and very little has been added.

The new plane has been designed to fit with a doctrinal shift rather than seeming to take advantage of some new breakthrough technology that will lead fighters needing to be redesigned, thus creating a new class of fighter gen.

The rumours are it is a new type of stealth paint that uses chrome, which really isn't something that should lead to fighters being classified as a new generation.

The Tempest has vertical stabilizers which a typical 6th gen fighter is supposed to do away with.

I believe that the use of vertical stabilizers is because of Two main factors for this:

The first reason is the US and China are building their fighters while prioritising range, not having vertical stabilizers the objective is for the planes to be able to travel long distances. This is because the primary theatre the powers are interested in is located in the south china sea. The US can't rely on its aircraft carrier because of Chinese missiles as such, it is planning to use the island chains against china, thus the need for planes with greater range. the Tempest project wasn't built with the same requirements in mind, thus the use of Vertical Stabilizers. it is also because of this reason that the FCAS fighter is also depicted with vertical stabilizers.

the second reason is doctrinal the US seems to be moving away from dog fights to a network-oriented form of warfare that uses its planes as mobile missile boats/control platforms for its drones. while the British seem to be sticking to a more traditional role for their plane, thus fewer entheses on mobile command and more entheses on traditional fighter jet doctrine.

 

[Zafer]

Of course, I haven't seen them, they are top-secret projects, but I have seen some concept art, but it is unclear if the actual fighter would resemble the concept art. If the art and statements are anything to go by, it seems that already existing 5th gen technology has matured in those planes, and very little has been added.

The new plane has been designed to fit with a doctrinal shift rather than seeming to take advantage of some new breakthrough technology that will lead fighters needing to be redesigned, thus creating a new class of fighter gen.

The rumours are it is a new type of stealth paint that uses chrome, which really isn't something that should lead to fighters being classified as a new generation.



I believe that the use of vertical stabilizers is because of Two main factors for this:

The first reason is the US and China are building their fighters while prioritising range, not having vertical stabilizers the objective is for the planes to be able to travel long distances. This is because the primary theatre the powers are interested in is located in the south china sea. The US can't rely on its aircraft carrier because of Chinese missiles as such, it is planning to use the island chains against china, thus the need for planes with greater range. the Tempest project wasn't built with the same requirements in mind, thus the use of Vertical Stabilizers. it is also because of this reason that the FCAS fighter is also depicted with vertical stabilizers.

the second reason is doctrinal the US seems to be moving away from dog fights to a network-oriented form of warfare that uses its planes as mobile missile boats/control platforms for its drones. while the British seem to be sticking to a more traditional role for their plane, thus fewer entheses on mobile command and more entheses on traditional fighter jet doctrine.

Vertical stabilizers are primarily bad for radar visibility and also for range to some extent but are good for agility. 6th gen planes have an emphasis on stealth so they would rather ditch the vertical stabilizers. But for tempest they chose to have them so I would say 5.6 gen plane.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Sixth Generation fighter jet expected properties have been discussed here in detail before.

1. All 5th generation specifications will be there and will be improved.
2. Involvement of pilot in flight will be minimised; Improving AI for most functions will make these planes capable of being pilotless.
3. Structure materials will contain such elements that it will have self healing properties.
4. Engines used will be variable cycle at the least. But may even incorporate Turbofan to Ramjet to Scramjet propulsion in later stages.
4. Directed energy weapons will be utilised in a more comprehensive manner. This may even include acting against threats from space.
5. Communication systems with other platforms will take a different meaning with these planes, especially when integrating with other fighters, drones and land and sea platforms through state of the art sensors and avionics, delivering a modular, open, scalable, and secure avionics architecture
So to say that there won’t be much difference between 5th and 6th generation fighter jets is a premature and incorrect claim.
But at the same time there will be quite a lot of specific capabilities both generations will have, that will overlap with each other; Albeit with a generation difference.

Tempest

Or NGAD

 

[Afif]

Sixth Generation fighter jet expected properties have been discussed here in detail before.

1. All 5th generation specifications will be there and will be improved.
2. Involvement of pilot in flight will be minimised; Improving AI for most functions will make these planes capable of being pilotless.
3. Structure materials will contain such elements that it will have self healing properties.
4. Engines used will be variable cycle at the least. But may even incorporate Turbofan to Ramjet to Scramjet propulsion in later stages.
4. Directed energy weapons will be utilised in a more comprehensive manner. This may even include acting against threats from space.
5. Communication systems with other platforms will take a different meaning with these planes, especially when integrating with other fighters, drones and land and sea platforms through state of the art sensors and avionics, delivering a modular, open, scalable, and secure avionics architecture
So to say that there won’t be much difference between 5th and 6th generation fighter jets is a premature and incorrect claim.
But at the same time there will be quite a lot of specific capabilities both generations will have, that will overlap with each other; Albeit with a generation difference.

Tempest
View attachment 53311
Or NGAD
View attachment 53310

And if i may add, if these triangular shaped conceptual designs without vertical stabilizers are realized, ( at least in US or Chinese programs ) it will be a considerable leap in low observability of the platform. As it would be effective against lower frequency emissions, unlike today's 5th gen designs which are only optimized against S and X bands.

 

[Ripley]

Can't read the file. Bloody maniacs geoblocked their allied country from accessing the website. Talk about #armenianmindset

I did some scanning over the file, and as far as I can tell, there’s really nothing there that hasn’t been been shared and brainstormed here many times.
If you still want to, you can download the file.

 

[Heartbang]

I did some scanning over the file, and as far as I can tell, there’s really nothing there that hasn’t been been shared and brainstormed here many times.
If you still want to, you can download the file.

Nah I just wanted to tell you about the sickly mindset our antagonists find themselves in.

 

[No Name]

Vertical stabilizers are primarily bad for radar visibility and also for range to some extent but are good for agility. 6th gen planes have an emphasis on stealth so they would rather ditch the vertical stabilizers. But for tempest they chose to have them so I would say 5.6 gen plane.

I know that the vertical stabilizers are primarily bad for radar visibility, but most of the 6th gen plans seem to still be depicted as still having them. I should also mention that the US Navies 6th gen F/A-XX design seems to be depicted with Canard, which also affects radar visibility. I believe it is more to do with other factors than the vertical stabilizers affecting radar visibility.

Of cause, the actual plane might be completely different from what is seen in the depictions who knows?

Sixth Generation fighter jet expected properties have been discussed here in detail before.

1. All 5th generation specifications will be there and will be improved.
2. Involvement of pilot in flight will be minimised; Improving AI for most functions will make these planes capable of being pilotless.
3. Structure materials will contain such elements that it will have self healing properties.
4. Engines used will be variable cycle at the least. But may even incorporate Turbofan to Ramjet to Scramjet propulsion in later stages.
5. Directed energy weapons will be utilised in a more comprehensive manner. This may even include acting against threats from space.
6. Communication systems with other platforms will take a different meaning with these planes, especially when integrating with other fighters, drones and land and sea platforms through state of the art sensors and avionics, delivering a modular, open, scalable, and secure avionics architecture
So to say that there won’t be much difference between 5th and 6th generation fighter jets is a premature and incorrect claim.
But at the same time there will be quite a lot of specific capabilities both generations will have, that will overlap with each other; Albeit with a generation difference.

Tempest
View attachment 53311
Or NGAD
View attachment 53310

I know, but I'm not convinced that the specifications are enough for those planes to be deserving of being classified as a new generation of fighter aircraft. it seems to me that only number 3 is deserving of a new classification as 6th-gen since that will require a new-generation plane to be implemented. The rest are just upgrades of capabilities that already exist in 5th gen planes, and none of those upgrades seems to require a new plane to take advantage of the new capability.

And if i may add, if these triangular shaped conceptual designs without vertical stabilizers are realized, ( at least in US or Chinese programs ) it will be a considerable leap in low observability of the platform. As it would be effective against lower frequency emissions, unlike today's 5th gen designs which are only optimized against S and X bands.

I think the designs were already realized by the United States back in the 90s it was called the Lockheed Martin X-44 MANTA it was based on the 5th generation F-22. In the future, if Turkey or any other country that used the F22 as an inspiration decides it needs a low-observable fighter against S and X bands, it will likely copy the x-44 manta to create an aircraft. All that said, the state in question would need to have an engine that is great a fluidic thrust vectoring to make up for the lack of vertical stabilizers.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

After Greek provocations and lock of our aircrafts on official NATO missions (by S300 stationed in Crete and aircrafts in different times) in international airspace, Turkish air force is now carrying out its training flights in the Aegean with BVR and WVR missiles loaded.

03.02.2023

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621543605742469121

27.01.2023

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618894679906619392

On the other hand, There is no missile payload in the trainings carried out in the BlackSea.

28.01.2023

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619308297454030850

 

[Heartbang]

After Greek provocations and lock of our aircrafts on official NATO missions (by S300 stationed in Crete and aircrafts in different times) in international airspace, Turkish air force is now carrying out its training flights in the Aegean with BVR and WVR missiles loaded.

03.02.2023

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1621543605742469121

27.01.2023

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1618894679906619392

On the other hand, There is no missile payload in the trainings carried out in the BlackSea.

28.01.2023

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1619308297454030850

Shouldn't they also carry SIGINT op equipment to learn more about those S300s?

 

[Afif]

Shouldn't they also carry SIGINT op equipment to learn more about those S300s?

Huh, there is not so much to learn about S300 except it is a cold war era junk.

 

[Heartbang]

Huh, there is not so much to learn about S300 except it is a cold war era junk.

S300 is fine. If you have doubts, ask the Ukrainians.

 

[Afif]

S300 is fine. If you have doubts, ask the Ukrainians.

Or i can tell you to ask the Armenians. It depend what you do actually want to do with it.
What i can definitely tell you, it wont survive modern ARMs.

 

[Heartbang]

Or i can tell you to ask the Armenians. It depend what you do actually want to do with it.

Not gonna. Because our Azerbaijani brothers did some divine work to take down those SAM's. But they fought smarter, not harder.
We need to gather SIGINT on those S300s to get rid of them in an effective manner. That's how you conduct warfare these days.

 

[Yasar_TR]

ABD: "Maliyetler arttı, Türkiye F-35 için ek ödeme yapmalı"

S-400 tedarikini gerekçe göstererek Türkiye'yi F-35 Programı'ndan çıkartan ABD, artan maliyetleri sebebiyle Türkiye'nin ek ödeme yapması gerektiğini savunuyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Now US is asking for extra payments from Turkey for the F35 program that they kicked us out from; Because their cost base has increased due to repositioning manufacturing base elsewhere, that was being handled by Turkish firms.
Never mind the 1.4 billion they owe us; They are asking for further payments now.
They previously also had asked for the monies, related to keeping our undelivered planes in storage.
This is one twisted and crooked logic and mentality.
Typical imperialist attitude.
I am the king! I am always right!

How can we expect to build TFX and Hurjet with their engines? It is totally mind boggling.

 

[what]

Well we should demand and sue for our money back adjusted for inflation, interest and consider if there are any fines for contract breach that can be applied. But the US-LM contracts are probably watertight.

 

[Afif]

If the Turks are still building parts perhaps its best to sabotage it and build shit quality.

It would be a great middle finger to the usa.

Bro, they are giving the Turkish contract to Rheinmetall and germans are probably gonna charge $38475634878576 to produce those parts....

 

[Ryder]

Bro, they are giving the Turkish contract to Rheinmetall and they are probably gonna charge $38475634878576 to produce those parts....

Muricans be like this is capitalism

 

[Ripley]

ABD: "Maliyetler arttı, Türkiye F-35 için ek ödeme yapmalı"

S-400 tedarikini gerekçe göstererek Türkiye'yi F-35 Programı'ndan çıkartan ABD, artan maliyetleri sebebiyle Türkiye'nin ek ödeme yapması gerektiğini savunuyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

Now US is asking for extra payments from Turkey for the F35 program that they kicked us out from; Because their cost base has increased due to repositioning manufacturing base elsewhere, that was being handled by Turkish firms.
Never mind the 1.4 billion they owe us; They are asking for further payments now.
They previously also had asked for the monies, related to keeping our undelivered planes in storage.
This is one twisted and crooked logic and mentality.
Typical imperialist attitude.
I am the king! I am always right!

How can we expect to build TFX and Hurjet with their engines? It is totally mind boggling.

Other than $1.4 B, we’ve set up production line for the program as partners and we’ve lost the contract because of the US government’s decision.
As a result, that investment is also registered as financial loss on top of the infamous $1.4 B.

You know what this reminds me of?
Bullet Fee!
For those of you who are not familiar, it’s an execution practice where the state (for the American readers, that is government) charges the bullet fee to the family of the prisoner who was executed by a single shot behind the head.

Such a disgraceful attitude towards Turkey.

 

[No Name]

Other than $1.4 B, we’ve set up production line for the program as partners and we’ve lost the contract because of the US government’s decision.
As a result, that investment is also registered as financial loss on top of the infamous $1.4 B.

You know what this reminds me of?
Bullet Fee!
For those of you who are not familiar, it’s an execution practice where the state (for the American readers, that is government) charges the bullet fee to the family of the prisoner who was executed by a single shot behind the head.

Such a disgraceful attitude towards Turkey.

Couldn't Turkey make up for the investment in the production line by converting them to build the TF-X?

 

[Heartbang]

Other than $1.4 B, we’ve set up production line for the program as partners and we’ve lost the contract because of the US government’s decision.
As a result, that investment is also registered as financial loss on top of the infamous $1.4 B.

You know what this reminds me of?
Bullet Fee!
For those of you who are not familiar, it’s an execution practice where the state (for the American readers, that is government) charges the bullet fee to the family of the prisoner who was executed by a single shot behind the head.

Such a disgraceful attitude towards Turkey.

Its time to litigate this matter at the courts. With the Americans signaling they're willing to sell F-35's to India (a nation who uses the S400 complex) there is a solid chance to acquire tangible gains from this.
Who needs F-16's when you can go back to the original consortium!