TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Yasar_TR]

China will not sell ws10 to Turkey
In the eye of china, nato is just rubbish except USA
Turkey is not important for china

That is a very short sighted and demeaning view. You need to elaborate on such an aggressive statement.

For China, every country is important. They are trying to establish themselves in a world where the dominant force is USA and it’s allies.

Majority of students in best western universities are Chinese. Why? Because they know they are not at the Wstern educational level yet. But they are catching up. Those western universities are all in NATO member countries.

Even if China wanted to sell WS10, would/could Turkey buy that engine?
China doesn’t sell turbofan engines to anyone yet. They are not at a sellable maturity level. Where as western engines last 6-8000 hours, Chinese equivalents manage around 500-1500 (higher number according to Chinese sources) hours.

Turkiye is very important for China. It is at the gateway of East and West. Strategically it is placed in a very sensitive position. No serious country can brush aside Türkiye.

Nato, in spite of its shortcomings is a formidable force and the members that constitute it are much richer economically than China. Chinese GDP is around 18 trillion dollars. Nato population without USA is around 640 million and its GDP without USA is 25 trillion dollars. (With USA it is 53trillion dollars)

No country and leader with intelligence will discard Nato and its member states and take them for granted.

 

[Strong AI]

Yup, that's where all these positive ones came out in the last 2 days. It still doesn't mean a single thing until it's signed and order placed.

Well even then, we can't be sure until those jets fly with our roundel. Oh wait, F-35 already flew with our roundel. Also we did an initial payment for Viper...
All our purchases turn into "arabian hair"

 

[Sanchez]

Well even then, we can't be sure until those jets fly with our roundel. Oh wait, F-35 already flew with our roundel. Also we did an initial payment for Viper...
All our purchases turn into "arabian hair"

That's short term, this is long term:

Not to be pedantic but there's no good news until deal is signed, production starts, training starts and the units are delivered to Balıkesir and Konya.

 

[TR_123456]

China will not sell ws10 to Turkey, technology transfer is a typical Turkish day dream
In the eye of china, nato is just a bunch of rubbish except USA
Turkey is not important for china

And this is why nobody likes your country or people,you act like the chosen ones.
Get down from your high horse,all your military equipment is inferior to Western equipment specially your engines.
You have quantity but no quality
Your products have costumors not able to buy Western equipment like many African Asian and South American countries.
Turkish military equipment is sold to both Western and the rest of the world,a sign of quality.
Your country has no say on the world stage,you are a so called ally of Iran but you didnt help in any way because you are afraid of what the West will do to you(sanctions).
You have no allies yet you act like you have many,your image is worthless yet you act like you are on top of the world.
Humbleness is not in your vocabulary,another reason why nobody likes you.
Let all these facts give you some perspective on how to ''sell'' your image,that is only if you understood what is meant here.
Btw,change the Brasillian to your real flag or i will change it for you.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I have never understood the philosophy of the Chinese and Russians – I am talking about the governments here, not the people. They say that Iran is their ally, but they do not supply it with modern weapons or support it by intercepting Israeli missiles, as the Americans do with Iranian missiles. I also believe that all three deeply distrust each other to the core.
If China wants to play world power/world police, it would have to help Iran and act proactively as a counterweight to the US. Because the way they are behaving at the moment (maximum passivity), not even Mickey Mouse would trust them, so how could their supposed allies come to their aid when they themselves are not even prepared to do so?

 

[boredaf]

Why are we talking about the Chinese engines again? Kaan wasn't build with them in mind, our own engine isn't based on our expertise with them either, you don't just fit any engine to a jet, you design the jet around it in the first place.

And then there is the fact that doing something as stupid as going to China to buy the engine would be economical suicide, it would be far worse than S-400 sanctions we faced. Since Russia invaded Ukraine, US turned its full attention to China and even changed some requirements in its new platform to fit Pacific theatre. Doing business with them at this time (when it comes to military) is like putting your mouth over an RPG and firing it.

And let's not forget, it isn't just Kaan that is reliant on foreign parts, whether big or small. We have all kinds of engines and other critical components that we buy from other countries that we cannot replace yet. We have joint projects and our firms have contracts, like TEI's contract with LM, that bring them a lot of money. Forgoing all of that (and more) for an interim engine solution is illogical as fuck.

There is also the fact that why would China sell us their engines? We are in NATO, not just in the peripheries but right in the middle of it, participating in every exercise and workshop, our companies are doing different works for them and we are home to one of their command centres. Given how intertwined we are in NATO, there is no chance is hell they would trust us not to allow them to take a look under the hood of those engines, even though they are based on old Soviet engines.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

In this context, it is not a question of actively procuring Chinese or Russian engines or bringing about a strategic realignment, but solely of securing a backup plan for the worst-case scenario—a scenario in which Western supply chains remain permanently blocked and no alternative is available.

Turkey is currently working intensively on the development of its own high-performance engine (TEI TF-35000) for the TAI KAAN combat aircraft. However, until it is ready for series production around 2032/34, a transitional engine is needed to bridge the gap left by the F110 engine (of US origin) that was previously planned. This need for an interim solution arises from geopolitical uncertainties regarding the release and delivery of Western components.

In such a transition scenario, Russian or Chinese engines would also be technically capable of temporarily taking over this role. This is expressly not a matter of a preferred or strategically desired partnership, but rather a safeguard in an extreme emergency should all Western options remain permanently blocked.

Once the domestic TEI TF-35000 engine is completed and available in series production, all external solutions – including the F110 and Russian or Chinese alternatives – will be completely replaced. The long-term goal remains technological independence in propulsion technology.

The international window of opportunity in which Western players – including, in particular, the US/Israel and Greece – can still influence Turkish aviation development is rapidly closing. Once Turkey has its own series production of engines and semiconductors (even using older processes), these countries will effectively lose the ability to exert pressure by refusing to supply them.

It is significant that the US continues to remain noncommittal about supplying F-16 and F-35 fighter jets or F110 engines. Eurofighter exports are also being blocked, presumably due to political pressure from Israel and Greece. This deliberate indecision avoids a clear decision:

A "yes" would accelerate Turkey's technological progress.

A "no," on the other hand, would give Turkey the legitimacy to openly and officially seek alternatives without being subject to massive diplomatic or economic sanctions.

The Chinese (or Russian) engines are not a proactively pursued option, but merely a strategic fallback solution in extreme cases. In the long term, Turkey is striving for complete independence in propulsion technology. The current period is therefore critical from the perspective of its opponents: as soon as in-house developments such as the TEI TF-35000 and its own semiconductor production are available, Western influence will decline dramatically – a scenario that some players are now trying to slow down with all their might, but do not want to openly prevent.

 

[hugh]

In this context, it is not a question of actively procuring Chinese or Russian engines or bringing about a strategic realignment, but solely of securing a backup plan for the worst-case scenario—a scenario in which Western supply chains remain permanently blocked and no alternative is available.

Turkey is currently working intensively on the development of its own high-performance engine (TEI TF-35000) for the TAI KAAN combat aircraft. However, until it is ready for series production around 2032/34, a transitional engine is needed to bridge the gap left by the F110 engine (of US origin) that was previously planned. This need for an interim solution arises from geopolitical uncertainties regarding the release and delivery of Western components.

In such a transition scenario, Russian or Chinese engines would also be technically capable of temporarily taking over this role. This is expressly not a matter of a preferred or strategically desired partnership, but rather a safeguard in an extreme emergency should all Western options remain permanently blocked.

Once the domestic TEI TF-35000 engine is completed and available in series production, all external solutions – including the F110 and Russian or Chinese alternatives – will be completely replaced. The long-term goal remains technological independence in propulsion technology.

The international window of opportunity in which Western players – including, in particular, the US/Israel and Greece – can still influence Turkish aviation development is rapidly closing. Once Turkey has its own series production of engines and semiconductors (even using older processes), these countries will effectively lose the ability to exert pressure by refusing to supply them.

It is significant that the US continues to remain noncommittal about supplying F-16 and F-35 fighter jets or F110 engines. Eurofighter exports are also being blocked, presumably due to political pressure from Israel and Greece. This deliberate indecision avoids a clear decision:

A "yes" would accelerate Turkey's technological progress.

A "no," on the other hand, would give Turkey the legitimacy to openly and officially seek alternatives without being subject to massive diplomatic or economic sanctions.

The Chinese (or Russian) engines are not a proactively pursued option, but merely a strategic fallback solution in extreme cases. In the long term, Turkey is striving for complete independence in propulsion technology. The current period is therefore critical from the perspective of its opponents: as soon as in-house developments such as the TEI TF-35000 and its own semiconductor production are available, Western influence will decline dramatically – a scenario that some players are now trying to slow down with all their might, but do not want to openly prevent.

- you stating the obvious does not create a valid fallback option. Russia or China would not sell their engines. they're not obliged to supply a NATO member just because we're desperate for it.

- engines are not simple plug and play devices. the aircraft is designed and woven around an engine. even if you , hypothetically, found an engine, the odds of utilizing it without significant design changes on the aircraft is minimal.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I think you may have overlooked an important aspect of geopolitics—and I don't mean that in a reproachful way. Russia and China are definitely pursuing the strategic goal of pulling Turkey further out of Western spheres of influence. This is evident, among other things, in the fact that China offered Turkey an air defense system in the past—an offer that was ultimately not pursued due to pressure from the US.

Russia's offer and sale of S-400 missiles also supports this view. Of course, China & Russia is aware that Turkey is a NATO member. At the same time, however, they also know that Turkey is not a typical NATO vassal of the US, the EU or NATO itself – but is increasingly pursuing an independent foreign policy as a swing state and mediator between the blocs.

 

[TheInsider]

BTW, let me leave this here. If we adjust the cost according to inflation, a single F-35 costs 17,128,959 $ to maintain per year. 40 F-35 costs over 685 million $ per year.

 

[boredaf]

In this context, it is not a question of actively procuring Chinese or Russian engines or bringing about a strategic realignment, but solely of securing a backup plan for the worst-case scenario—a scenario in which Western supply chains remain permanently blocked and no alternative is available.

Mate, you might not think that, but going and buying Chinese or Russian engines would be a realignment, whether you call it that or not, there is simply no other way anyone would view it and if you truly believe they wouldn't, I've got a bridge to sell you.

In such a transition scenario, Russian or Chinese engines would also be technically capable of temporarily taking over this role. This is expressly not a matter of a preferred or strategically desired partnership, but rather a safeguard in an extreme emergency should all Western options remain permanently blocked.

Again nobody would see it as a safeguard. We would be giving a shotgun in the hands of those who already hate us, and tie the hands of those who are on our side with something as ridiculous as this. You're confusing your perspective with how it would be seen on geopolitical stage.

The Chinese (or Russian) engines are not a proactively pursued option, but merely a strategic fallback solution in extreme cases.

They are not, you just want to believe they are. I feel like you didn't actually read what I wrote before. Whether their output is similar or not, you can't just take an engine and put it in a plane and be done with it. We didn't design Kaan with a Russian or Chinese engine in mind, and we are not making our engine with them in mind either. We have decades long experience in Western engines, built in logistics and supply lines.

think you may have overlooked an important aspect of geopolitics—and I don't mean that in a reproachful way. Russia and China are definitely pursuing the strategic goal of pulling Turkey further out of Western spheres of influence.

Sorry but this is bullshit. Russia has been our enemy for hundreds of years, we fought in multiple proxy wars against them just in this last decade. If they could, they would attack us without a second thought; in fact, if it hadn't been for NATO, Soviets would've definitely tried long before they collapsed. And China is just an opportunist loan shark, looking for countries to put into indentured servitude. Sure, I would trust them more than Russian but that is only because China, at least for now, doesn't really care about what's outside of their immediate surroundings and lack the power projection.

This is evident, among other things, in the fact that China offered Turkey an air defense system in the past—an offer that was ultimately not pursued due to pressure from the US.

Mate, that is because barely anybody buys any military system from China. And most of those that do can only do it on credit. It was just business and you're reading into it.

Russia's offer and sale of S-400 missiles also supports this view.

That was a fucking blackmail and nothing else, that single purchase fucked us over more than anything else in decades.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

We should not be under any illusions: if the US, or rather Israel, decides not to deliver the F110 engines for political or strategic reasons, or to delay delivery further, then they simply will not deliver them.
They are under no obligation whatsoever to provide us with these engines. That is precisely why it is negligent from a security policy perspective not to have a reliable Plan B or C in place.

Without these engines, there is a risk of a serious delay in the development of the TAI KAAN – possibly until 2032, or in the worst case even until 2034/35. This is an enormous delay in a project of strategic importance. The TEI TF-35000 is undoubtedly an ambitious and important project, but realistically, it will not be ready for series production and reliable operation until the mid-2030s. Until then, we need a functioning interim solution. A modern fighter jet cannot be flown with good intentions or provisional ideas – and certainly not without a suitable engine.

We should also maintain a realistic view of international partnerships. States act primarily on the basis of their own interests. Friendship or partnerships are an illusion in international politics – this applies to the West just as much as it does to Russia or China. Anyone who is historically aware knows that many of today's NATO partners did not hesitate in the past to question our national integrity, and have done so again in the recent past, as evidenced by NATO partners' support for the PKK/YPG and FETÖ.

Turkey has only a handful of reliable partners, including Azerbaijan, Pakistan and, under certain conditions, Qatar and some Turkic states.
Beyond that, most of our foreign policy relationships are based on mutual benefit, not loyalty or friendship.
That is precisely why we must make our strategic decisions soberly, regardless of whether we are dealing with Western or Eastern actors. Trust is good, but security is better.

 

[TR_123456]

We should not be under any illusions: if the US, or rather Israel, decides not to deliver the F110 engines for political or strategic reasons, or to delay delivery further, then they simply will not deliver them.
They are under no obligation whatsoever to provide us with these engines. That is precisely why it is negligent from a security policy perspective not to have a reliable Plan B or C in place.

Without these engines, there is a risk of a serious delay in the development of the TAI KAAN – possibly until 2032, or in the worst case even until 2034/35. This is an enormous delay in a project of strategic importance. The TEI TF-35000 is undoubtedly an ambitious and important project, but realistically, it will not be ready for series production and reliable operation until the mid-2030s. Until then, we need a functioning interim solution. A modern fighter jet cannot be flown with good intentions or provisional ideas – and certainly not without a suitable engine.

We should also maintain a realistic view of international partnerships. States act primarily on the basis of their own interests. Friendship or partnerships are an illusion in international politics – this applies to the West just as much as it does to Russia or China. Anyone who is historically aware knows that many of today's NATO partners did not hesitate in the past to question our national integrity, and have done so again in the recent past, as evidenced by NATO partners' support for the PKK/YPG and FETÖ.

Turkey has only a handful of reliable partners, including Azerbaijan, Pakistan and, under certain conditions, Qatar and some Turkic states.
Beyond that, most of our foreign policy relationships are based on mutual benefit, not loyalty or friendship.
That is precisely why we must make our strategic decisions soberly, regardless of whether we are dealing with Western or Eastern actors. Trust is good, but security is better.

Times have changed,they have no other choice but to deliver those engines.
They know there is no use in delaying the obvious,it will backfire.

 

[Sanchez]

3 years later and they still don't know the most basic tenets of political system of our largest defence partner, or he simply don't understand it and his mind can't comprehend it. It's not up to Trump whether Turkey gets F-35s or not.

Barrack was reminded that US President Donald Trump had previously conveyed the impression that he had good intentions in re-introducing Turkey to the F-35 program, and when asked, "Is there a process that will contribute constructively to bilateral relations regarding the Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) and the F35 issue?" he replied, "Yes, absolutely yes."

Stating that F16s and F-35s are indispensable elements of NATO ally Türkiye, Barrack reminded that most of the F35 parts are manufactured in Türkiye.

Noting that Türkiye paid for the F16s and their modernization, Barrack shared anecdotes about the period when CAATSA sanctions were imposed on Türkiye.

The ambassador pointed out that the F35 issue had been discussed for a long time and said that the parties wanted to "leave this issue behind."

"The US Congress is ready to look at the issue again. President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan also say that a 'new beginning' should be made." Barrack said, "(F35 and CAATSA sanctions) In my opinion, President Trump and President Erdoğan will tell Secretary Rubio and Secretary of State Fidan, 'finish this, find a way.' Congress will support a logical outcome. Therefore, I believe that we have the opportunity to reach a solution by the end of the year."

Barrack made the following statements regarding F35 and CAATSA sanctions:

"In the next few months, you will see a new meeting between our two leaders and our two foreign ministers, a renewal of the bilateral agenda, all these issues that have been discussed for five years. Things like F35, F16, S400s, sanctions, customs duties are secondary elements of our mission. I think for the first time, the US and Türkiye have a commitment to 'let's be partners that act together' instead of just being defense partners."

The ambassador said regarding the F35 issue, "Therefore, I believe that it is possible to reach a solution by the end of the year."

ABD'nin Ankara Büyükelçisi Tom Barrack, AA'ya konuştu

Ankara Büyükelçisi ve ABD'nin Suriye Özel Temsilcisi Tom Barrack, "Yakın gelecekte Gazze’de bir ateşkes göreceğimizi düşünüyorum." dedi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

I still see a lots of wishful thinking here accepting congress to be logical for starters, so let's see. I'll follow up the rest in Foreign Policy thread.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Times have changed,they have no other choice but to deliver those engines.
They know there is no use in delaying the obvious,it will backfire.

The current US stance on supplying the F110 engine to Turkey remains in limbo. Although there are isolated positive signals, there is still no binding and clear decision – neither a clear commitment nor an official rejection.

This strategic vagueness is no coincidence, but rather the expression of a deliberate policy: Turkey is to be kept in the dark in order to strategically limit its ability to act without having to formally assume responsibility. But this is precisely where the security policy risk lies.

If this stance continues until the TAI KAAN prototype is scheduled to enter series production – expected in 2028/29 with F110 engines – there is a real danger that political or legal pretexts will be used at the last minute to refuse delivery altogether. This would set the program back significantly in technical terms and delay operational readiness considerably – possibly until 2032, or in the worst case until 2034/35, i.e., until the domestic TEI TF-35000 becomes available.

This delay would have considerable strategic implications:

Air superiority deficit: By then, countries such as Greece and Israel are expected to have a substantially higher number of fifth-generation fighter jets.

Turkey may not have sufficient capacity to effectively counter this technological advantage in the period 2028–2035.

Long-term lag: Even if production started immediately after 2035, it would be difficult to close the gap by 2040, even at maximum production capacity.

 

[Samba]

We should not be under any illusions: if the US, or rather Israel, decides not to deliver the F110 engines for political or strategic reasons, or to delay delivery further, then they simply will not deliver them.
They are under no obligation whatsoever to provide us with these engines. That is precisely why it is negligent from a security policy perspective not to have a reliable Plan B or C in place.

Without these engines, there is a risk of a serious delay in the development of the TAI KAAN – possibly until 2032, or in the worst case even until 2034/35. This is an enormous delay in a project of strategic importance. The TEI TF-35000 is undoubtedly an ambitious and important project, but realistically, it will not be ready for series production and reliable operation until the mid-2030s. Until then, we need a functioning interim solution. A modern fighter jet cannot be flown with good intentions or provisional ideas – and certainly not without a suitable engine.

We should also maintain a realistic view of international partnerships. States act primarily on the basis of their own interests. Friendship or partnerships are an illusion in international politics – this applies to the West just as much as it does to Russia or China. Anyone who is historically aware knows that many of today's NATO partners did not hesitate in the past to question our national integrity, and have done so again in the recent past, as evidenced by NATO partners' support for the PKK/YPG and FETÖ.

Turkey has only a handful of reliable partners, including Azerbaijan, Pakistan and, under certain conditions, Qatar and some Turkic states.
Beyond that, most of our foreign policy relationships are based on mutual benefit, not loyalty or friendship.
That is precisely why we must make our strategic decisions soberly, regardless of whether we are dealing with Western or Eastern actors. Trust is good, but security is better.

One of the plans could be removing engines from f16s and use them in Kaan....

 

[Spitfire9]

The current US stance on supplying the F110 engine to Turkey remains in limbo. Although there are isolated positive signals, there is still no binding and clear decision – neither a clear commitment nor an official rejection.

This strategic vagueness is no coincidence, but rather the expression of a deliberate policy: Turkey is to be kept in the dark in order to strategically limit its ability to act without having to formally assume responsibility. But this is precisely where the security policy risk lies.

Sounds like the best risk reduction move is to get that order for Eurofighter through. Turkiye can add more if US blocks KAAN engine supply or TF35000 looks likely to be much delayed. US is no longer Europe's friend or ally, so if Trump tries to stop Eurofighter supply to Turkiye, Europe may refuse to concede. Releasing the imprisoned political rival would help. Dictators are not popular with north Europeans.

 

[Ahlatshah]

One of the plans could be removing engines from f16s and use them in Kaan....

Unfortunately, it doesnt work that way. Not technically, but as a matter of law and politics:

F110 engines are in the scope of ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations). You bought these engines to be used for f16s. Removing from F16s and using in Kaan like exporting these engines to another country.

You have to have permission from USA in order to do it. Otherwise you couldnt get single screw from USA for F16s ever again. Not the mention political implications, or militarily feasable or not.

Believe me, you would be better off using Russian engines, which you could explain the reasons, more or less. But you can never explain the other option to anyone. Especially, to as bigoted as Americans

PS: Source

https://ntma.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ITAR-Guidance.pdf

 

[Slayer]

Comparing Turkiye to Iran goes to show how much you know about Turkiye, our history and culture.
And this "hard beat" to teach us us our real ability - what the hell does that even mean?

You obviously have a hard on for Turks and Turkiye. We can help you with that. We have a saying in Turkish "Adami Sikerler". Learn it.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Turkey is just like iran full of big mouth with nothing

A hard beat will teach you know your real ability

Yes i am aslo afraid of war between turkiye vs israel that could destroy entire Turkish naval fleet and airbases by israeli . Thats strategic mistake that Turks make from 2002 until now . Even if we have 400 f35 we cant use them agaist israel .
Thats why i was agaist f35 since forever and pro to produce every weapon made in Turkiye .
The problem is not that Izrael is powerful but the kind of how israel is made(and acts) its like israel = western countries .
They have unlimited money and tech from western area .
The only solution is to make Turkiye militaristic country kind like nort / south korea.
The only solution for today until 15 years is that during war we can march 5 million soldiers in syria and fight israel in its borders and pray we can pressure israel to accept our conditions . After 15 years , our airforce , navy will be too powerful even for china or US to attack us , if everything go as planned ...