TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[TheInsider]

Selçuk Bayraktar lost me when he said you can buy 20 Kızılelmas instead of 1 F-16 with the same money. Even if we factor total life cycle costs it is impossible. IMHO he doesn't need to talk bullshit.

 

[Turkic]

Selçuk Bayraktar lost me when he said you can but 20 Kızılelmas instead of 1 F-16 with the same money. Even if we factor total life cycle costs it is impossible. IMHO he doesn't need to talk bullshit.

He didn't say that

He said Kızılelma will be 5-10 times cheaper than manned fighter jets.

Later Fulya forced him on the topic and he said "I can't say if it will be 20 times cheaper. Fighter jets aren't sold for fixed prices. It can be 20-30 times cheaper if you count all (referring to the Eurofighter/Rafale sales with a price tag of up to 300 million euros per jet when all spare parts and others added)"

It's not the exact conversation. I translated with what's left in my mind from last night but that was what he said. He said 5-10 times cheaper than 5th gen manned fighters. When he said 20-30 times was after Fulya asked him if it will be 20 times cheaper than F-16.

So it's not Selçuk's fault but media's.

 

[Ahlatshah]

He didn't say that

He said Kızılelma will be 5-10 times cheaper than manned fighter jets.

Later Fulya forced him on the topic and he said "I can't say if it will be 20 times cheaper. Fighter jets aren't sold for fixed prices. It can be 20-30 times cheaper if you count all (referring to the Eurofighter/Rafale sales with a price tag of up to 300 million euros per jet when all spare parts and others added)"

It's not the exact conversation. I translated with what's left in my mind from last night but that was what he said. He said 5-10 times cheaper than 5th gen manned fighters. When he said 20-30 times was after Fulya asked him if it will be 20 times cheaper than F-16.

So it's not Selçuk's fault but media's.

Agree that , he also explicitly said that 5 or 10 times cheaper than 5. gen aircrafts. If you count all the expenses 20x 30x cheaper he outlined

But you know, media is always tend to exagerrate things to get more views. If one doesnt watch entire program, headline or fixed subtitles can be very much misleading.

However, in the program, he seems more uptight than usual I can say. That doesnt help anyone, Baykar is very important company and he himself very important figure for our nation and country.

He also stated 6 KE have already been built

 

[TheInsider]

He didn't say that

He said Kızılelma will be 5-10 times cheaper than manned fighter jets.

Later Fulya forced him on the topic and he said "I can't say if it will be 20 times cheaper. Fighter jets aren't sold for fixed prices. It can be 20-30 times cheaper if you count all (referring to the Eurofighter/Rafale sales with a price tag of up to 300 million euros per jet when all spare parts and others added)"

It's not the exact conversation. I translated with what's left in my mind from last night but that was what he said. He said 5-10 times cheaper than 5th gen manned fighters. When he said 20-30 times was after Fulya asked him if it will be 20 times cheaper than F-16.

So it's not Selçuk's fault but media's.

Unmanned fighters that are on par with today's modern manned fighters won't be a magnitude cheaper compared to manned fighters. This is selling snake oil. A Kızılelma with a 20000 lbs engine, AESA radar, EOTS, DAS, improved production quality, stealth coating and supersonic flight capability will cost half the price of F-35(~40 million) at best, and it will carry less payload.

 

[TheInsider]

Agree that , he also explicitly said that 5 or 10 times cheaper than 5. gen aircrafts. If you count all the expenses 20x 30x cheaper he outlined

But you know, media is always tend to exagerrate things to get more views. If one doesnt watch entire program, headline or fixed subtitles can be very much misleading.

However, in the program, he seems more uptight than usual I can say. That doesnt help anyone, Baykar is very important company and he himself very important figure for our nation and country.

He also stated 6 KE have already been built

He is outright lying.

 

[Ahlatshah]

He is outright lying.

If you explain things what he says is impossible, it would be a much productive argument. Instead, you just saying he is lying.

We are tired of that kind of attitude.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Selçuk Bayraktar lost me when he said you can buy 20 Kızılelmas instead of 1 F-16 with the same money. Even if we factor total life cycle costs it is impossible. IMHO he doesn't need to talk bullshit.

I aslo shocked , At best kızılelma can cost 20 million dollar while f16 depends on variants cost 70-80 million , thats around 4x cheaper that still is amazing but 20 x ?!

 

[TheInsider]

I aslo shocked , At best kızılelma can cost 20 million dollar while f16 depends on variants cost 70-80 million , thats around 4x cheaper that still is amazing but 20 x ?!

20 million dollars is impossible for the current Kızılelma, let alone an improved Kızılelma that can offer similar capability compared to a manned fighter. TB2 goes for 5 million for god's sake.

 

[TheInsider]

If you explain things what he says is impossible, it would be a much productive argument. Instead, you just saying he is lying.

We are tired of that kind of attitude.

No, I don't need to prove anything. The burden of proof falls to whoever makes a claim. He is claiming something logically impossible, so he needs to show proof, not me. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You guys are all emotional because, over time, he created something like a personality cult. A bullshit is a bullshit independent of where it comes from.

 

[Zafer]

He talks about cost to manufacture and not the sales price. If They make more of the components themselves they can do that. But the cost to the customer will be measured by the value offered compared to alternative offerings.

 

[TheInsider]

He talks about cost to manufacture and not the sales price. If They make more of the components themselves they can do that. But the cost to the customer will be measured by the value offered compared to alternative offerings.

Cost to manufacture, lifecycle cost, whatever you name it. You can't buy or manufacture 10 Kızılelma drones for the cost of 1 manned fighter. You can't even buy 5. He is selling snake oil.
You buy 10 Kızılelma, you need 10 hangars, 10 ground crew teams. You need to expand the infrastructure to serve that quantity. This is one of the biggest bullshit i have heard recently.

 

[Ahlatshah]

He talks about cost to manufacture and not the sales price. If They make more of the components themselves they can do that. But the cost to the customer will be measured by the value offered compared to alternative offerings.

Of course he is. That is the basic cost analysis in anywhere in the world

I think some of us mixing up what KE cost to Baykar or us as a nation. He is an aircraft manufacturer, he does not take into account radar or sensors, they are for users. And yes, an empty KE could be 5 or 10 times cheaper than empty 4. or 5. gen jets

Moreover, we dont know every KE would include all the sensors mentioned. may be just one of 4 or 5 KE would fly with these sensors. We tend to think KE as a manned platform that doesnt include human. In reality, swarms, AI, much different decision makings than current process.

All in all, we are talking about a concept that none of us knows, may be even users.

I am choosing to wait and see how this concept unfolds.

Other than that, I dont answer ANYBODY in my life, who is accusing the others instead of contributing a legitimate debate

 

[TheInsider]

Akıncı costs 25-30 million for the TAF, and it is without systems like MURAD AESA radar. Baykar says they are not making a lot of profit from sales to the TAF, so it has to be close to the manufacturing cost. That is why the Turkish Armed Forces don't have hundreds of Akıncı in the inventory, because they are not as cheap as you think, and the AESA version will be even more expensive. The per unit price offered for Saudi Arabia is 51.6 million dollars for 60 Akıncıs with a big package worth 3.1 billion dollars.

 

[TheInsider]

Of course he is. That is the basic cost analysis in anywhere in the world

I think some of us mixing up what KE cost to Baykar or us as a nation. He is an aircraft manufacturer, he does not take into account radar or sensors, they are for users. And yes, an empty KE could be 5 or 10 times cheaper than empty 4. or 5. gen jets

Moreover, we dont know every KE would include all the sensors mentioned. may be just one of 4 or 5 KE would fly with these sensors. We tend to think KE as a manned platform that doesnt include human. In reality, swarms, AI, much different decision makings than current process.

All in all, we are talking about a concept that none of us knows, may be even users.

I am choosing to wait and see how this concept unfolds.

Other than that, I dont answer ANYBODY in my life, who is accusing the others instead of contributing a legitimate debate

You just can't accept your idol is outright lying; there is no debate here. We don't debate whether the Earth is round or flat. You can believe whatever you want. The Earth is round, independent of what you believe, and I'm not here to change your mind. I'm here to write a note to correct disinformation for whoever reads this forum.

 

[Turkic]

You buy 10 Kızılelma, you need 10 hangars, 10 ground crew teams. You need to expand the infrastructure to serve that quantity. This is one of the biggest bullshit i have heard recently.

Who mentioned expenses other than the jet itself?

 

[TheInsider]

Who mentioned expenses other than the jet itself?

Do you read posts? Someone mentioned lifecycle costs.

It doesn't matter be it's flyaway cost, lifecycle cost, or manufacturing cost; whatever you want to compare doesn't change the fact that you can't buy, manufacture, or maintain 10 Kızılelmas for the price of 1 manned fighter.

 

[Turkic]

Do you read posts? Someone mentioned lifecycle costs.

It doesn't matter be it's flyaway cost, lifecycle cost, or manufacturing cost; whatever you want to compare doesn't change the fact that you can't buy, manufacture, or maintain 10 Kızılelmas for the price of 1 manned fighter.

If you ask me, you misunderstood @Zafer abi's post. Maybe I did. I won't argue on your thoughts either. But it shouldn't be forgotten that JF-17 is just above the amounts we're talking about and it has an AESA radar, (probably) more expensive engine and such.

 

[Zafer]

TSK maybe holding off from buying more UAV because newer ones keep cropping up. A larger Akıncı with the TS1400 engine is already in the works which will be more attractive for the TSK. I don't see why Selçuk Bayraktar would be misinforming the public. He is the manufacturer, he has full knowledge of the costs and cost at a stage when the inhouse manufacturing peaks. Baykar intends to make the engine and the optics along with some of the weapons and practically perhaps 90+% of total cost of ownership inhouse so if need be like in time of war they can make as many as they can at a rather small cost to them which matters a lot and translates into the country's war fighting capability.

Edit: 5-10 times as affordable as a manned fighter; this range accommodates a big range of costs so totally reasonable.

 

[boredaf]

larger Akıncı with the TS1400 engine is already in the works

It was mentioned exactly once, in a passing comment about using TS1400 in drones and that was it. You really need to stop taking everything out of context and making claims, it is borderline spreading misinformation at this point. TS1400 is barely in LRIP itself, the process of using it in drones would still take a long time along with its tests. There is literally nothing concrete about it, at all.

I don't see why Selçuk Bayraktar would be misinforming the public.

Because of the same reason why Temel Kotil was talking all that bollocks up until he left. He is also a salesman, I literally quoted his word on last page, showing how he likes to talk big, and you're asking why he might do that now, well, have we built 12 KE last year and increasing more this year and getting it to 48 next year? No. So, he does love to big up his company and product.

 

[Zafer]

It was mentioned exactly once, in a passing comment about using TS1400 in drones and that was it. You really need to stop taking everything out of context and making claims, it is borderline spreading misinformation at this point. TS1400 is barely in LRIP itself, the process of using it in drones would still take a long time along with its tests. There is literally nothing concrete about it, at all.

Selçuk Bayraktar mentioned it briefly in this talk too. Your predictions about the TS1400 is totally baseless. And stop with accusations of spreading misinformation.