TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

TheInsider

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Then why aren‘t they using it for the M60A3 upgrade?

I think this license is restricted to Sabra Mk II upgrade and in the end the Israelis from IMI have the last say. Just like the Germans not allowing licensed MTU engines from STX Korea for Altay.

Edit: model designation corrected
First of all, we have a huge and I mean gargantuan stock of 105mm shells this is by itself a huge parameter. There are budgetary constraints. Those tanks will not be first-liners. Sabras, Leo2A4s, and Altays will be the first-line MBTs. Upgraded M60A3 will be there to provide numbers and provide somewhat modern armor-protected fire support.
 

lLiberté

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Isn‘t Leo 2A4 the most potent MBT of Turkish Land Forces?

Not currently, M60T/TM/T1 surpasses capabilities of Leopard 2A4 pretty much every field maybe except for mobility. As @Sanchez explained above, Fırat Modernisation and TİYK upgrades increased M60T's capabilities to another level. It should ne noted though, Leopard 2A4 has more room for future upgrades so it has potential. Leopard 2A4T1 are only handful (around 40) and only received ROKETSAN T1 Armor Package is still lacks situational awareness capabilities of TM/T1.

Hopefully, 2A4s and 2A4T1s will receive same sub-systems as our TM/T1s but I believe on top of them it should receive AKKOR instead of PULAT considering usage of drones are sky-high.

It's still an M60 and lacks the commander's main sight, AND the electronically driven turret, but it's pretty good for what it has to come across, which at best is a Leo2A6 with 20 year old optics.

I never understood why CITV left aside I both packages, TM's situational awareness would reach another level. One thing we must not overlook, our Thermal optics are not on top of its class both KARTALGÖZÜ and KARTALGÖZÜ-II (I think now renamed to KARTALGÖZÜ-100 and KARTALGÖZÜ-200) thermal has resolution of 640x512. This resolution is consistent in all of our thermal imagers sadly. I hope this will be improved before Altay.
 

Isbara

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Suitable 120 mm L/44 cannons for M60T are only available from US, Germany, Israel or Japan.

Or MKE has to develop a Turkish L/44 version which costs time and money …

I think we do not need to spend lots of money to develop a new gun.
When Altay begins to serve for our army we'll have enough 120mm guns to counter our foes in the region.
And remaining modernised tanks with 105mm will be more than enough for our anti-terror operations both in Irak and Syria...
 

Ryder

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Sabra tanks performed much better than Leopard 2 tanks against Isis.

Leopard 2 tanks which the Turks had were fcking garbage.

Germans instead blamed the Turks now the Russians have figured out ways to take out Leopard 2 tanks.

Germans still blamed the Turks and Ukrainians for not using it properly and engaged in damage control.

German weapons are not what they seem to be. Expensive, complicated and overrated. Poland opted for the Korean K2 tank over more Leopards by the way.

I think the Altay Tank could even do a better job than the Leopard.
 
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lLiberté

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Sabra tanks performed much better than Leopard 2 tanks against Isis.

That simply because Sabra was modernised platform while 2A4 were in there base configuration. Also you must not overlook the fact that Sabra is more optimised for such operations, Israeli know-how and experience really shined in Sabra package.

Leopard 2 tanks which the Turks had were fcking garbage.

I cannot disagree more how so 2A4 is garbage ? We simply did not care our 2A4, they received no upgrade in their service life. ROKETSAN's T1 Armor Package actually improved our 2A4's protection probably more so than Sabra with additional sub-system integration 2A4 would be on par with Sabra if not slightly better.
 
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TheInsider

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From whom?

We have the production license for it. This is %100 proven as I said we have been replacing barrels of M-60Ts. We probably licensed it from Israel. The above video is 5 years old.

MKE Heavy Guns Factory also lists it as a product on their internet site. MKE's main site also lists it as an available product.

 

lLiberté

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I thought we use Rheinmetal smoothgun.

Well we do use that too, but not on M60T. We use;
- IMI MG253 120mm L/44 on M60T/TM/T1
- Rheinmetal Rh-120 120mm L/44 on Leopard 2A4/2A4T1
- MKE 120mm L/55 on Altay

Apparently, MKE produces localised version (or direct license copy) of MG253 here locally as "120mm L/44 M60 Weapon System" as @TheInsider provided evidenced. There is a high chance some of our Leopard 2A4s are armed with MKE's 120mm L/44 as some had "damaged" barrels.

So based on the evidence and MKE's website we can say that, we can produce three different cannons for our main battle tanks:
- 120mm L/44 M60 Weapon System
1212202315110762G029DLU4THPRY9K642.png


- 120mm L/55 Altay Weapon System
12122023150738F6H7PHS28K3G6LB1900E.png


- 105mm L/52 M68T1 Weapon System


Said Leopard 2A4s with Damaged Barrels:

Leopard 2A4 Damaged Barrel - 2.jpeg


Leopard 2A4 Damaged Barrel - 1.jpg
 

Ryder

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That simply because Sabra was modernised platform while 2A4 were in there base configuration. Also you must not overlook the fact that Sabra is more optimised for such operations, Israeli know-how and experience really shined in Sabra package.



I cannot disagree more how so 2A4 is garbage ? We simply did not care our 2A4, they received no upgrade in their service life. ROKETSAN's T1 Armor Package actually improved our 2A4's protection probably more so than Sabra with additional sub-system integration 2A4 would be on par with Sabra if not slightly better.

Those m60s even if modernised are a old package.

The Leopard 2a4 is a newer one and still let down Turkish troops.

Modernised 2A4 will no doubt be better than the modernised M60.

But shows how the Germans fleeced the fck out of the Turkish military with tanks without even the proper protection and the proper armaments.

Germans have done this to all their customers. Their worst one was Poland now Poland has stuck the middle finger to them.
 

Sanchez

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Over the years we've heard some chatter that comparing penetrated tanks, Leo2 did give a better chance of survival to the crew. M60T is armored to the brim with NERAs but when they're penetrated, you die. Not always the same case with Leo2. It has far greater crew survivability.

Germany didn't fleece anyone, we paid for and bought 30 year old Leo2A4s in 2007. Then waited 6 years to start even contemplating about modernizing them to NGs. Our German supported NG mod got embargoed after 2016 and we had to use near unarmored tanks against modern ATGMs in Syria. BMC was to start modernizing Leo2A4s in 2019. 4 years have passed. In a separate Roketsan package, all we have to show for are 40 T1s.
 

DBdev

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Syrian Army, Iran, Russia, PKK all started using FPV racing drones with RPGs attached. Drone costs $200, RPG head costs $300. Only reason there are still tanks around is because China restricts exports of drone parts. If they didn't there could be tens of millions of those. Single DJI drone factory produces millions of them. Those things do not care about the things you keep obsessing about here. Drones like that took out modern Israeli Merkava 4, British heavy Challenger 2, Leopard 2 and all Russian tanks with equal ease despite cope cages etc. They should have at least add full auto ATOM and 360 IR camera for instant automatic response to fast FPV drones. Even then you have those almost same price bigger ones who drop tank mines from far above... Top secret armored Challenger 2 tanks hide in forests out of fear of cheap drones. So what good is a top secret, cutting edge armored super heavy, super duper modernized western tank that can't even move forward 1 meters out of fear? Tanks are just cooking pots for those who insist on living 80 years in the past in the era of fast mechanized blitzkrieg. Their time has come and gone. Like I said we are now living in CHEAP drone age.
 

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Their time has come and gone. Like I said we are now living in CHEAP drone age.
Is that why every single military power out there still producing/buying tanks and have projects going on for new generation tanks? Rumours of tanks' demise are greatly exaggerated. For every successful cheap FPV drone kill video out there, dozens if not hundreds more fail. There is a reason countries, including us, are investing in jamming technologies. Cheap, off the shelf drones are not protected against jamming, and properly protected ones are expensive. And not just that, in the never ending military rock, paper and scissors game the thing that easily beats slow moving aerial assets was invented 100 years ago: aa guns.

Last but not least, if those FPV drones were so damn effective to the point that they made tanks obsolete, Ukraine wouldn't have been begging for more tanks and IFVs as they built thousands and thousands of drones. They have their place in the battlefield, sure, but pretending like they are some wunderwaffe is over the top.
 

YeşilVatan

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Is that why every single military power out there still producing/buying tanks and have projects going on for new generation tanks? Rumours of tanks' demise are greatly exaggerated. For every successful cheap FPV drone kill video out there, dozens if not hundreds more fail. There is a reason countries, including us, are investing in jamming technologies. Cheap, off the shelf drones are not protected against jamming, and properly protected ones are expensive. And not just that, in the never ending military rock, paper and scissors game the thing that easily beats slow moving aerial assets was invented 100 years ago: aa guns.

Last but not least, if those FPV drones were so damn effective to the point that they made tanks obsolete, Ukraine wouldn't have been begging for more tanks and IFVs as they built thousands and thousands of drones. They have their place in the battlefield, sure, but pretending like they are some wunderwaffe is over the top.
Completely agreed. In my opinion, the next five to ten years will see something like a secondary turret with 360 degree radar and a small gun for anti-drone purposes to be a crucial subsystem for tanks. And that would mainly be for countering advanced military grade drones, not off the shelf FPVs.
 

boredaf

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Completely agreed. In my opinion, the next five to ten years will see something like a secondary turret with 360 degree radar and a small gun for anti-drone purposes to be a crucial subsystem for tanks. And that would mainly be for countering advanced military grade drones, not off the shelf FPVs.
I personally expect to see jamming devices directly on new generation tanks. On top of that, I think 40mm grenade launchers that use fast speed airburst ammunitions could be even better than machine guns against FPV drones as they have to be right on top of the tank to do any real damage. A small calibre gun might have a hard time hitting the drone and as far as I know, airburst rounds with pellets inside start from 20/25mms which would be too big.
 

Zafer

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Tank lover armies will wise up at some point, it is not easy to give up on an iconic piece of equipment overnight after all. There is economies around it and cost of ownership of the technology is high, so there is a big barrier to entry into the technology which keeps small players out of the game and makes the pie of the weapons market bigger. Imagine swarms of small drones take on tanks incapacitating them without big guns. That would be the end for a trillion dollar market. A similar thing is happening in the fighter market, drones are taking away jobs from fighters bit by bit and you can see the trend. But it is a happening in slow motion and it will take some time until AI creates a quantum leap in the field. Like a plague taking out elephants tanks and fighters even ships can be effected by small drones. It is a matter of time, and efforts to stretch the time can be effective to some point but not indefinitely.
 
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Kartal1

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Syrian Army, Iran, Russia, PKK all started using FPV racing drones with RPGs attached. Drone costs $200, RPG head costs $300. Only reason there are still tanks around is because China restricts exports of drone parts. If they didn't there could be tens of millions of those. Single DJI drone factory produces millions of them. Those things do not care about the things you keep obsessing about here. Drones like that took out modern Israeli Merkava 4, British heavy Challenger 2, Leopard 2 and all Russian tanks with equal ease despite cope cages etc. They should have at least add full auto ATOM and 360 IR camera for instant automatic response to fast FPV drones. Even then you have those almost same price bigger ones who drop tank mines from far above... Top secret armored Challenger 2 tanks hide in forests out of fear of cheap drones. So what good is a top secret, cutting edge armored super heavy, super duper modernized western tank that can't even move forward 1 meters out of fear? Tanks are just cooking pots for those who insist on living 80 years in the past in the era of fast mechanized blitzkrieg. Their time has come and gone. Like I said we are now living in CHEAP drone age.
Next Generation warfare. Return to origins 😬

By this logic we should remove any kind of vehicle and infantry because it can't protect itself from a drone (it actually can). No of the tanks you are talking about is super-duper or whatever. They are decades old technologies and concepts at best. Warfare is changing every day so are concepts. There are enough companies that are aware of the current and future concepts by taking note from different points of the world and their unique environment.

Also bro, no offence, but my longest hike in mountainous terrain was around 30km in a day, 1200m denivelation (there are people doing so much every day for a week or so) with little to no equipment (only a light backpack). Despite my "super-duper" hiking boots in the end of the day the small part of hard road managed to fuck up my feet so good that it was like someone tried to burn the sole of my feet. I got the same feeling by going only 5km downhill in the mountain with no hard road to fuck up my feet (just a bit heavier on the weight) with 600-700m negative denivelation.

I don't know what kind of experience in walking or what kind of background you have, but I am sure you wouldn't talk like this if you experienced such a thing. I experienced it many times, know what it feels to walk in the snow or in the heat for many kilometers in mountainous terrain or on the asphalt road and if I know that after this I would have to fight I surely would prefer to ride in a pickle can with a smell of diesel, grease and shit all around me instead of hiking with an anti-drone gun on me for 20 or 30 kilometers.

Now lets imagine doing this with a full kit, accumulated stress, physical and psychical fatigue and people with different levels of fitness all around you. I can tell you what happens:

People are dropping like pears and ambulances are picking them up like taxies. The bad part is that, there are no taxies on the battlefield.

I don't even want to talk about days of hiking on foot like the example of the Azerbaijani Special Forces during the Karabag war. We know very well how stressing was the experience for them and they are both excellent warriors and good athletes as well. If it was not for the tanks in Operation Euphrates Shield our casualties would be even at least 2 times higher. Reinforcements at the Hospital Hill came in ACV-15s and even with transport they were late. There are many examples like this.

Mechanized, motorized infantry or the tank are there for a reason and no, they are not going anywhere. First it was the Little Willie, then the Centurion and the Tiger, now it is Challenger, Abrams or Altay. Times change, technology changes, armaments change and armor also changes. In 15 years I am sure tanks would be very different from what we see now, but they are not going anywhere anytime soon. I don't even feel the need to comment on transport (armored).
 

boredaf

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Mechanized, motorized infantry or the tank are there for a reason and no, they are not going anywhere.
Couldn't agree more. If it was going to disappear because of the appearance of new anti-tank technology, it would've done so after WWII when more tanks were destroyed than the number of tanks in service around the world today.
 

Ryder

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People think tanks are obsolete we still use Horses to traverse places where cars, trucks even tanks cant go.

Think of it this way the tank wont be going anywhere and anytime soon.

Dutch regret disbanding their tanks.
 
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