TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

Chocopie

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How different would be to develop L/44 on the technological base of the already developed L/55? I think it shouldn't be so difficult for MKE.

Some time ago FNSS said that if needed a national 105mm turret can be developed (an alternative to Cockerill turrets) for a light/medium tank as TSK was interested in the concept.

Don't you think MKE is capable enough to develop it without much delays?
I have no doubt that MKE is capable to develop a L/44 version.

But every new technical „thing“ must be engineered, built, tested, integrated to vehicle, field-tested and certified.
Existing 120 mm tank ammo must be test-fired and certified for the L/44 as well.

That needs extra time and money. I mean it‘s not like shortening a shotgun barrel at home with a metal saw 🪚 😅
 

Kartal1

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I have no doubt that MKE is capable to develop a L/44 version.

But every new technical „thing“ must be engineered, built, tested, certified, integrated to vehicle, field-tested.
Existing 120 mm tank ammo must be test-fired and certified for the L/44 as well.

That needs extra time and money. I mean it‘s not like shortening a shotgun barrel at home with a metal saw 🪚 😅
Fair enough! 😅😅😅
 

Saithan

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Well if we’re going to have some light tanks like Kaplan MT for TN and need to develop domestic turret since cockeril prob won’t allow sale to TSK, FNSS or MKE should develop compact 120mm turret for Kaplan MT. Even a 105mm would be good.
 

TheInsider

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Suitable 120 mm L/44 cannons for M60T are only available from US, Germany, Israel or Japan.

Or MKE has to develop a Turkish L/44 version which costs time and money …

Turkiye bought the license of the gun with the M-60T Sabra project.
 

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Kartal1

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Well if we’re going to have some light tanks like Kaplan MT for TN and need to develop domestic turret since cockeril prob won’t allow sale to TSK, FNSS or MKE should develop compact 120mm turret for Kaplan MT. Even a 105mm would be good.
I read on a couple of places that with the Sabra program MKE produced the bores of the 120mm L44 needed for the turret under license. If wrong someone please correct me.

Apart from that we know that Leonardo produces L44 120mm cannons for their M60A3 modernization package. We may ask for licensed production of the cannons or directly ask to procure them with Leonardo.

EDIT: I saw the messages above just as I posted this.
 

Chocopie

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Turkiye bought the license of the gun with the M-60T Sabra project.
Then why aren‘t they using it for the M60A3 upgrade?

I think this license is restricted to Sabra Mk II upgrade and in the end the Israelis from IMI have the last say. Just like the Germans not allowing licensed MTU engines from STX Korea for Altay.

Edit: model designation corrected
 
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Chocopie

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I read on a couple of places that with the Sabra program MKE produced the bores of the 120mm L44 needed for the turret under license. If wrong someone please correct me.

Apart from that we know that Leonardo produces L44 120mm cannons for their M60A3 modernization package. We may ask for licensed production of the cannons or directly ask to procure them with Leonardo.

EDIT: I saw the messages above just as I posted this.
Afaik the Leonardo 120 mm L/44 is also a Rheinmetall licensed gun (them Germans again 😁).

As I posted above the few producers besides Germany with independent L/44 versions are US, Israel and Japan (Type 10 tank).
 

Kartal1

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Afaik the Leonardo 120 mm L/44 is also a Rheinmetall licensed gun (them Germans again 😁).

As I posted above the few producers besides Germany with independent L/44 versions are US, Israel and Japan (Type 10 tank).
Oh, didn't know that. That's so bad, I am thinking of a solution, but as everything Turkiye will most probably go with national production in this case... (as everything else)
 

lLiberté

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AFAIK Turkey license built the IMI L44 gun in Turkey, but this was a fixed contract for the Sabra program, not for us to do as we wish in the future.

In the same package we also acquire license of M322 and now actively producing localised version of it as MOD 290. MKE should have enough experience to produce something based off of MG253, but for some reason I cannot count on them.

Then why aren‘t they using it for the M60T upgrade?

You mean M60A3, as M60T/TM/T1 already uses MG253 as their main armament. As for M60A3 upgrades, it is probably Land Forces Command who wants 105mm.
 

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We have our own Korean DNA L55 but hit a brick wall on L44, such a Turkish problem to have tbh.
 

Chocopie

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Oh, didn't know that. That's so bad, I am thinking of a solution, but as everything Turkiye will most probably go with national production in this case... (as everything else)
It‘s a diffcult case. The L/44 is a somewhat outdated 120 mm and no export market to finance a new developed version.

120 mm L/55 will be replaced in future with 130 or even 140 mm cannons coupled with autoloaders. Dunno if it‘s feasible for Türkiye to invest now in a L/44 without any future prospects for this gun type.
 

Chocopie

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You mean M60A3, as M60T/TM/T1 already uses MG253 as their main armament. As for M60A3 upgrades, it is probably Land Forces Command who wants 105mm.
Yes, I meant the rest of the M60 versions in TSK inventory which were not upgraded through Sabra program (didn‘t know the model designations).

Sabra Mk I versions still uses the 105 mm afaik.
 

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Yes, I meant the rest of the M60 versions in TSK inventory which were not upgraded through Sabra program (didn‘t know the model designations).

Sabra Mk I versions still uses the 105 mm afaik.
Sabra Mk I was a proposed Israeli mod program, never ordered by Israel or Turkey. Sabra Mk II is M60T.
 

lLiberté

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Yes, I meant the rest of the M60 versions in TSK inventory which were not upgraded through Sabra program.

As I've just said, probably because Land Forces Command wants to stick with 105mm. MZK could be fitted 120mm as it support 125mm but the MZK prototype we've seen was fitted with 105mm.

Sabra Mk I versions still uses the 105 mm afaik.

Turkish Armed Forces does not operate Sabra Mk.I, only Mk.II under M60T designation. That being said, Sabra Mk.I is also fitted with 120mm cannon not 105mm. You can compare Mk.I's cannon and Mk.II


Mk.I
Sabra Mk. I - 20.jpg


Mk.II
Sabra Mk. II - 5.jpeg
 

Chocopie

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Sabra Mk I was a proposed Israeli mod program, never ordered by Israel or Turkey. Sabra Mk II is M60T.
Cool, thanks for the info, didn‘t know that. M60T with a 120 mm doesn‘t sound too bad as a gap filler. Mass introduction of Altay is most urgent.
 

lLiberté

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Cool, thanks for the info, didn‘t know that. M60T with a 120 mm doesn‘t sound too bad as a gap filler.

Thing is M60T/TM/T1 is almost a two decade old platform and I'm not even counting service life of M60A1 which it was based off. Even then problem is not the age of the Sabra, problem is our most potent tank in service is two decades old.

Mass introduction of Altay is most urgent.

Urgent is an understatement, we desperately need them.
 

Chocopie

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Thing is M60T/TM/T1 is almost a two decade old platform and I'm not even counting service life of M60A1 which it was based off. Even then problem is not the age of the Sabra, problem is our most potent tank in service is two decades old.



Urgent is an understatement, we desperately need them.
Isn‘t Leo 2A4 the most potent MBT of Turkish Land Forces?

If I remember correctly the modernization is ongoing and you have several 100s of them.
 

Sanchez

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We, and tanks have come so far from this, to this in 2 short decades. Tank itself is old, tech on it is another thing.

Tddg53Q.jpeg


Cool, thanks for the info, didn‘t know that. M60T with a 120 mm doesn‘t sound too bad as a gap filler. Mass introduction of Altay is most urgent.
With how modified "M60TMM" is, they are more than a gap filler at this stage. They'll soldier on for much longer. With the latest TIYK update that saw the Israeli Knight FCS being changed with Volkan, weirdly they now have the most comprehensive digital package in operational NATO tanks. More than M1 Sep v3, more than Leopard 2A7. And maybe more than Polish K2s. "M60TMM", electronically is an Altay in a M60 shell. All systems now linked with each other, 360 degree view mounts on all side, linked to driver's cameras, LWR talking with RCWS and telescopic sight TEPES, RCWS linked to 360 degree cameras, RCWS doubling as both loader's and commander's sight, all linked, all interconnected. Aselsan did good here. It's still an M60 and lacks the commander's main sight, AND the electronically driven turret, but it's pretty good for what it has to come across, which at best is a Leo2A6 with 20 year old optics.

It's lessons learned on the Altay being fed down and with its (relatively) low weight and powerful engine, is a perfect and even low cost solution for our southern border where the best next tank is a T-90A. This thing would eat T-90As with shit Russian optics as lunch. Hopefully deliveries go smoothly and all M60Ts are updated. Next up Leo2 TIYK.
 

TheInsider

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AFAIK Turkey license built the IMI L44 gun in Turkey, but this was a fixed contract for the Sabra program, not for us to do as we wish in the future.
No. How do I know? We replaced the guns of many of the M-60Ts as the service life of the guns has expired. You can only fire a certain amount of shots with tank guns and our Sabras are extensively used in operations. We are now getting rid of all Israeli subsystems like FCS etc. as it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain even those systems. MKE doesn't list anything that it has no license to produce.
 

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