TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Zafer]

Altay project is unfortunately a big fiasco, denying does not change it.

We started a great project like a German, but ended (not even ended) it like Turks

Altay project is a shining star that will show the capabilities of Turkish industry not the capability of some foreign makers.

 

[Lool]

Altay project is a shining star that will show the capabilities of Turkish industry not the capability of some foreign makers.

No one ever denied that the Altay project is crucial and significant
It is just that the fact that the Main battle tank of Turkey was held up for up to 6 to 7 years just because of an engine problem proved to the world that it isnt a national turkish tank but a tank that from the outside is turkish yet its core is german!
Now the authorities are doing their best to fix the problem but that doesnt change that there was a problem in the first place

 

[Zafer]

No one ever denied that the Altay project is crucial and significant
It is just that the fact that the Main battle tank of Turkey was held up for up to 6 to 7 years just because of an engine problem proved to the world that it isnt a national turkish tank but a tank that from the outside is turkish yet its core is german!
Now the authorities are doing their best to fix the problem but that doesnt change that there was a problem in the first place

That is because of the decision made to go fully domestic after the initial start of the project.
It wouldn't even save us time if we started with the goal of using a domestic engine because sanctions would have started earlier. Those 6-7 years is nothing in the way to get a very highly national Turkish made tank.

 

[TNAHN]

Is the Aselsan active protection system ready for mass production? It was first tested in 2013. seems to be late. but nobody cares. Aselsan was affected by the embargo, the project requirements changed and there were delays. but no problem.
Was bmc responsible for the engine at the beginning of the domestic tank project? No. domestic engine was needed later. but now everyone is angry with bmc. I think this is not fair.

 

[Abdelaziz]

Is the Aselsan active protection system ready for mass production? It was first tested in 2013. seems to be late. but nobody cares. Aselsan was affected by the embargo, the project requirements changed and there were delays. but no problem.
Was bmc responsible for the engine at the beginning of the domestic tank project? No. domestic engine was needed later. but now everyone is angry with bmc. I think this is not fair.

Nearly all systems suffered delay dt embargo ..hisar ,havasoj,ktj engine ... Etc ... But when it comes to bmc >>> oooh corruption ..the project has failed und the rest repeated shit ... Altay project problems are clear and the gov is working really impressively to solve them .. its very uncommon to produce 1500 hp engine und transmission, 1000 hp engine und transmission, 600hp engine prototip and start qualification tests within 4 years

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Everybody!
It breaks my heart to delete long-written posts by some of you but you leave us no choice.
Keep politics out of it please.
No warnings have been issued yet but from this point on there may be some.

Although we all know that politics have a big part with the delay in the Altay project, it's not this thread's purpose.

We had a Cay Bahcesi which is now Bunalim Bahcesi, you can spill your hearts out there.

Thank you!

 

[Huelague]

Altay project is unfortunately a big fiasco, denying does not change it.

We started a great project like a German, but ended (not even ended) it like Turks

Project is still ongoing.

 

[BordoEnes]

Project is still ongoing.

So is the TF-2000, which might aswell be renamed at this point.

 

[LegionnairE]

I said many, many years ago that BMC would fail. Anybody with any brain knew this would happen.

Guys,keep politics out of this thread.

There's nothing technical left to discuss. When the development was done in 2016 Altay prototype was the best tank in the world.

Today I would say that it's T-14 Armata. Yes, the Armata production is progressing slowly, but it's progressing lol.

I swear to god, Indian Arjun tank went to production in a shorter timeframe.

 

[Mustafa27]

I am just gonna unwatch this thread there is nothing here for me to read, the more I read this thread the more I lose my sanity, people still with sports team mentally sporting BMC or hating BMC like it's supporting football teams.

 

[Nutuk]

I don't think it is a matter of supporting or hating BMC. None of us is blind or too dumb to see that BMC got a prefered status.

No need to play the ignorant, let's name it as is, the whole serial production tender of the Altay tank, all the incentives that has been paid to BMC, Building ground in Karasu (where no factory is build). Handing over the tank palet factory (pretending it is a long term lease)

And yet zero result.

What is wrong with this picture?

 

[GoatsMilk]

Also this is what the Arjun turned into. Just for laughs.

same guy did a video on the prototype Altay too,

 

[Timur]

T-14 Armata

then can you please tell us besides russian reklam, propaganda excuses for creating a new tank by german/french to get money why is the armata such a good tank and not an overrated russian tank like most of russian hardware.. by comaring or showing the benefirts it has over the turkish altay, abrahams and europan tanks..

it cannot be just a higher caliber for its ammunition

 

[Ryder]

Simple really the first altays were going to be powered with german stuff until germany f'ed us over.

Anyway even with the german mtu the Turks had plans to make a domestic one i remember there was plans for a hybrid or a electric version of the altay.

Hybrid and electric tech are maturing as day by day goes. Now imagine the possibilities.

 

[Combat-Master]

AKKOR development is to be completed this year.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Nice. I read online that aselsan is starting a project for aselsan kama active protection system. Is that a upgraded version of akkor or a version with different task?

 

[Nilgiri]

Neither here or there. The truth is the project has been delayed and corrupted by scandalous politicians and so called "business men". Tank should have been rolling years ago, at this rate we may never see it.

The Arjun failure tainted the entire Indian defence industry. It created an image of incompetence, incapability and failure for India. This Altay tank could end up having a similar effect.

Also this is what the Arjun turned into. Just for laughs.

I would just like to add some context...and Turkish members can fit as they want to Altay (and other projects in Turkish defence industry) whatever may be relevant.

The Arjun (mk 1) was plagued by extremely bad project management....further compounded (or derived from) no real serious interest to use the end product within stipulated time.

This (focused interest to use and sound proj. management) is crucial to making solid timely compromises, budgeting practice, and design freezes (in the project management process), no matter how good your design teams are.

Otherwise its becomes an exercise of spending X amount of man-hours over X amount of years...and you just roll-over X as govt bureaucracy and budgeting allows for it (without getting a final worthy product to produce and iterate on)....given realised production (of scale) and deployment is big part of feedback loop for the ecosystem.

The big thing that drove this was the sheer scale of MIC the Russians have and have had in their Tank production (given raw cold war scale of it)...and thus the raw competition this provided relative to indigenous project (with these issues I describe)....even downstream of coldwar itself......especially once you factor in all the lobbying entrenched in Indian defence bureaucracy (esp. at the time and esp for ground hardware) vis-a-vis Russia.

It essentially became lot more prudent and easier for India at the time (80s, 90s and continuing) to leverage off that....and simply order more CKD (or raw blueprint+produce i.e ToT) for T-72 and then T-90.

Similar trends have plagued artillery and small arms.

This is being somewhat addressed with Arjun Mk2 (as acknowledged by "Red Effect" YT'ber)...i.e improving upon the flaws and lethargy cost of the system and (fundamental) growing reluctance to leverage off Russia going forward...thus adding the raw pressure thats needed to "whip and get to shape"..... but we have to see where that goes.

Now compare this all to where India could not leverage off a massive scaled external MIC as readily or as thoroughly as needed and in the short-pressing time scales it wanted to.....and you get opposite results (relatively speaking) like the missile ecosystem, nuclear ecosystem, warship ecosystem, radar ecosystem, space ecosystem etc...

 

[Ryder]

I would just like to add some context...and Turkish members can fit as they want to Altay (and other projects in Turkish defence industry) whatever may be relevant.

The Arjun (mk 1) was plagued by extremely bad project management....further compounded (or derived from) no real serious interest to use the end product within stipulated time.

This (focused interest to use and sound proj. management) is crucial to making solid timely compromises, budgeting practice, and design freezes (in the project management process), no matter how good your design teams are.

Otherwise its becomes an exercise of spending X amount of man-hours over X amount of years...and you just roll-over X as govt bureaucracy and budgeting allows for it (without getting a final worthy product to produce and iterate on)....given realised production (of scale) and deployment is big part of feedback loop for the ecosystem.

The big thing that drove this was the sheer scale of MIC the Russians have and have had in their Tank production (given raw cold war scale of it)...and thus the raw competition this provided relative to indigenous project (with these issues I describe)....even downstream of coldwar itself......especially once you factor in all the lobbying entrenched in Indian defence bureaucracy (esp. at the time and esp for ground hardware) vis-a-vis Russia.

It essentially became lot more prudent and easier for India at the time (80s, 90s and continuing) to leverage off that....and simply order more CKD (or raw blueprint+produce i.e ToT) for T-72 and then T-90.

Similar trends have plagued artillery and small arms.

This is being somewhat addressed with Arjun Mk2 (as acknowledged by "Red Effect" YT'ber)...i.e improving upon the flaws and lethargy cost of the system and (fundamental) growing reluctance to leverage off Russia going forward...thus adding the raw pressure thats needed to "whip and get to shape"..... but we have to see where that goes.

Now compare this all to where India could not leverage off a massive scaled external MIC as readily or as thoroughly as needed and in the short-pressing time scales it wanted to.....and you get opposite results (relatively speaking) like the missile ecosystem, nuclear ecosystem, warship ecosystem, radar ecosystem, space ecosystem etc...

I heard the Indian bureaucracy is also pain in the ass to deal with which led to so many delays and money being pocketed in by officials. Also as technology advances new requirements come to play. India's biggest problem was finding a partner for the Arjun. I mean the Altay tank was done with South Koreans. India could have benefitted from collarboration with other countries. The biggest problem was collarborating with who. There was rumours that India wanted work with Russia but as usual Russia just want to sell their tanks not work with India.

Arjun was a shitshow many Indians even agreed it was a disgrace when India deserves better.

I think if India scraps Arjun and works on a new tank project I feel like they could do better due to experience and knowledge being learned which would help in the future. Arjun was just the painful start.

I can see why some Turks also fearing the state of the Altay tank.

 

[LegionnairE]

then can you please tell us besides russian reklam, propaganda excuses for creating a new tank by german/french to get money why is the armata such a good tank and not an overrated russian tank like most of russian hardware.. by comaring or showing the benefirts it has over the turkish altay, abrahams and europan tanks..

it cannot be just a higher caliber for its ammunition

It's simply a better configuration. Completely unmanned turret allows the crew to be better protected while keeping the weight of the tank low.

What's more, they could easily upgrade the turret later when the french-german tank comes out. If I remember correctly, they are already developing a variant of T-14 with 152mm gun.

Altay started getting old before the production even began.

Otokar had developed Altay AHT for urban operations which was really sweet too. But they didn't get the tender.

Yes, any discussion about Altay will be a political discussion about how corrupt the current government in Turkey is.

It's a great tank, Otokar, with help from Hyundai Rotem did a fantastic job.
The problems with this tank are political.

 

[Timur]

It's simply a better configuration. Completely unmanned turret allows the crew to be better protected while keeping the weight of the tank low.

What's more, they could easily upgrade the turret later when the french-german tank comes out. If I remember correctly, they are already developing a variant of T-14 with 152mm gun.

Altay started getting old before the production even began.

Otokar had developed Altay AHT for urban operations which was really sweet too. But they didn't get the tender.

View attachment 28039

Yes, any discussion about Altay will be a political discussion about how corrupt the current government in Turkey is.

It's a great tank, Otokar, with help from Hyundai Rotem did a fantastic job.
The problems with this tank are political.

I dont think that russians armor and russian protection level is such a great thing it wasnt in the past and I did not hear anything wich they claim for armata.. I also dont think that the electronics and optics of their tank are state of the art..

a turret may not be the most argument that it would give upper hand..

dont understand me wrong I dont think that armata is really bad I just dont think its above leo 2 or abrahams I think it just closed the gap with a different approach